How ready am i for the track, anymore mods needed
Originally Posted by furiousZ
Didn't you just read his posts? He said you should get out to the track after getting quality brake fluid and some quality pads. THAT'S IT. The Z's suspension is perfectly capable out of the box, not to mention it has plenty of power.
Don't compare the Z to your previous car. AWD and RWD are both entirely diff. from one another. Track the Z first, and see what you as a driver need to improve. It's a great step to go out there and use the stock suspension, and learn the more difficult way. Then when you put on new modifications such as shocks, springs, sways-- it's much easier to handle and you can take advantage of it.
Good luck!
Don't compare the Z to your previous car. AWD and RWD are both entirely diff. from one another. Track the Z first, and see what you as a driver need to improve. It's a great step to go out there and use the stock suspension, and learn the more difficult way. Then when you put on new modifications such as shocks, springs, sways-- it's much easier to handle and you can take advantage of it.
Good luck!
Originally Posted by raduly
Thanx for your quick response, my main question was about the racing seat and steeing wheel. I just wanted him to elaborate a bit more on that since he has the exprience.
Many organizations won't allow you on the track without the OEM airbag anyways.
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Joined: Jun 2003
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From: New Bern, NC
Originally Posted by raduly
Hey Stack, since you're a track junkie, and it seems that u know what your talking about, help me figure out what I need for my first time out on the track. I have an '03 Track 350z, bone stock, well... high flow filter in an 06 box. I was thinking getting a sparco sprint seat and a smaller steering wheel, just because I had them im my awd eclipse and I really like the stup. I could feel what the car was doing and I was able to concentrate more on driving, than keeping my balance in the seat.
I see you are against it as far as newbies are concerned, can you tell me why?
At what point do you advise getting sways and springs to correct the balance of the car?
I see you are against it as far as newbies are concerned, can you tell me why?
At what point do you advise getting sways and springs to correct the balance of the car?
Seats... seats are obviously a very important part of your car. And you are right, that a shell-type seat will give your padded data collector more info and feel. But... when you limit the movement, you take away THAT bit of "seat of the pants" info. This is the info that tells you if you're driving smoothly or not. You get a false sense of smoothness and security when you're planted... similar to race rubber that mask poor driving technique in someone who's gone to those tires too soon.
Plus, seats can be an expensive purchase, and not one to take lightly. Those Sprints for example. They don't have sub strap holes. If/when you add harnesses, you'll either have to cut a hole in the bottom, or replace the seat in order to install the harnesses properly for the anti-sub strap(s) (and no, you should not use 4-point belts of any sort for track use IMO, many clubs won't allow them.)
Springs & Sways... Most people start buying springs and sways because their car is not handling how they want. Usually its understeering (or pushing) since thats how modern street cars are set up. Bigger problem is, most people don't pinpoint WHY the car isn't handling right before changing hard parts, and often don't fix the problem, or they make it worse (do a search, you'll see). Some get lucky and get it right. The way I see it, until you can consistently predict what your car will do around each and every turn, and make adjustments in your driving style to lessen or exaggerate the problem, then you need to work on the software of the driver, not the hardware of the car. How do you know what parts to buy if you don't know exactly what you're trying to change?
Now... for you specifically, I'd say since this will be the first time you're tracking your Z, the same things apply, even if you've had track experience before, because it will be a completely different car than the Eclipse. Plus, the first thing everyone realized their first time on track is that what they THOUGHT they knew from street driving has no bearing on track driving. I'd also stay FAR away from changing the steering wheel on the Z until you can afford to have a 4-point roll bar, harnesses AND a head & neck restraint system in the car. Getting rid of airbags is a bad idea.
As was mentioned above... definitely flush your brake fluid with a high-temp synthetic like AP 550, Motul 600, ATE 200, etc. You're brakes are only as good as your tires, so with stock high-performance summer tires, the stock pads are probably fine, with the proper braking technique. The pads that come from the factory on the Brembos are made by Ferodo and should be better than anything your local parts store may have. Always good to have a spare set of fronts AND rears for emergencies.
Otherwise, be completely honest with your instructor as far as your experience on track and in that particular car. He or she will help you get to where you want to go.
Originally Posted by Kolia
Do not deactivate any airbags unless you have a complete harness/rollbar(cage)/seat/HANS package.
Many organizations won't allow you on the track without the OEM airbag anyways.
Many organizations won't allow you on the track without the OEM airbag anyways.
I got 2 more question:
Should I get a baffled oil pan and finned diff cover? Do I need them or wait tilll later when I push the can a bit more?
Originally Posted by Stack
OK... you're asking a few different things here... where to start?
Seats... seats are obviously a very important part of your car. And you are right, that a shell-type seat will give your padded data collector more info and feel. But... when you limit the movement, you take away THAT bit of "seat of the pants" info. This is the info that tells you if you're driving smoothly or not. You get a false sense of smoothness and security when you're planted... similar to race rubber that mask poor driving technique in someone who's gone to those tires too soon.
Plus, seats can be an expensive purchase, and not one to take lightly. Those Sprints for example. They don't have sub strap holes. If/when you add harnesses, you'll either have to cut a hole in the bottom, or replace the seat in order to install the harnesses properly for the anti-sub strap(s) (and no, you should not use 4-point belts of any sort for track use IMO, many clubs won't allow them.)
Springs & Sways... Most people start buying springs and sways because their car is not handling how they want. Usually its understeering (or pushing) since thats how modern street cars are set up. Bigger problem is, most people don't pinpoint WHY the car isn't handling right before changing hard parts, and often don't fix the problem, or they make it worse (do a search, you'll see). Some get lucky and get it right. The way I see it, until you can consistently predict what your car will do around each and every turn, and make adjustments in your driving style to lessen or exaggerate the problem, then you need to work on the software of the driver, not the hardware of the car. How do you know what parts to buy if you don't know exactly what you're trying to change?
Now... for you specifically, I'd say since this will be the first time you're tracking your Z, the same things apply, even if you've had track experience before, because it will be a completely different car than the Eclipse. Plus, the first thing everyone realized their first time on track is that what they THOUGHT they knew from street driving has no bearing on track driving. I'd also stay FAR away from changing the steering wheel on the Z until you can afford to have a 4-point roll bar, harnesses AND a head & neck restraint system in the car. Getting rid of airbags is a bad idea.
As was mentioned above... definitely flush your brake fluid with a high-temp synthetic like AP 550, Motul 600, ATE 200, etc. You're brakes are only as good as your tires, so with stock high-performance summer tires, the stock pads are probably fine, with the proper braking technique. The pads that come from the factory on the Brembos are made by Ferodo and should be better than anything your local parts store may have. Always good to have a spare set of fronts AND rears for emergencies.
Otherwise, be completely honest with your instructor as far as your experience on track and in that particular car. He or she will help you get to where you want to go.
Seats... seats are obviously a very important part of your car. And you are right, that a shell-type seat will give your padded data collector more info and feel. But... when you limit the movement, you take away THAT bit of "seat of the pants" info. This is the info that tells you if you're driving smoothly or not. You get a false sense of smoothness and security when you're planted... similar to race rubber that mask poor driving technique in someone who's gone to those tires too soon.
Plus, seats can be an expensive purchase, and not one to take lightly. Those Sprints for example. They don't have sub strap holes. If/when you add harnesses, you'll either have to cut a hole in the bottom, or replace the seat in order to install the harnesses properly for the anti-sub strap(s) (and no, you should not use 4-point belts of any sort for track use IMO, many clubs won't allow them.)
Springs & Sways... Most people start buying springs and sways because their car is not handling how they want. Usually its understeering (or pushing) since thats how modern street cars are set up. Bigger problem is, most people don't pinpoint WHY the car isn't handling right before changing hard parts, and often don't fix the problem, or they make it worse (do a search, you'll see). Some get lucky and get it right. The way I see it, until you can consistently predict what your car will do around each and every turn, and make adjustments in your driving style to lessen or exaggerate the problem, then you need to work on the software of the driver, not the hardware of the car. How do you know what parts to buy if you don't know exactly what you're trying to change?
Now... for you specifically, I'd say since this will be the first time you're tracking your Z, the same things apply, even if you've had track experience before, because it will be a completely different car than the Eclipse. Plus, the first thing everyone realized their first time on track is that what they THOUGHT they knew from street driving has no bearing on track driving. I'd also stay FAR away from changing the steering wheel on the Z until you can afford to have a 4-point roll bar, harnesses AND a head & neck restraint system in the car. Getting rid of airbags is a bad idea.
As was mentioned above... definitely flush your brake fluid with a high-temp synthetic like AP 550, Motul 600, ATE 200, etc. You're brakes are only as good as your tires, so with stock high-performance summer tires, the stock pads are probably fine, with the proper braking technique. The pads that come from the factory on the Brembos are made by Ferodo and should be better than anything your local parts store may have. Always good to have a spare set of fronts AND rears for emergencies.
Otherwise, be completely honest with your instructor as far as your experience on track and in that particular car. He or she will help you get to where you want to go.
Thank you sir! You told me everything I needed to know so far.I really have not track experience, I used to live in NC and there are some really awesome mountain roads up there. Thats where I got to practice a few things on my own. When I got the seat I thought I was becoming a better driver... but apparently it only made the car easier to drive.
Will try Sebring this summer.
Thank you again for the helpful info!
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,604
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From: New Bern, NC
Originally Posted by raduly
Now thats a complete answer... Thank you sir! You told me everything I needed to know so far.
I really have not track experience, I used to live in NC and there are some really awesome mountain roads up there. Thats where I got to practice a few things on my own. When I got the seat I thought I was becoming a better driver... but apparently it only made the car easier to drive.
Will try Sebring this summer.
Thank you again for the helpful info!
Thank you sir! You told me everything I needed to know so far.I really have not track experience, I used to live in NC and there are some really awesome mountain roads up there. Thats where I got to practice a few things on my own. When I got the seat I thought I was becoming a better driver... but apparently it only made the car easier to drive.
Will try Sebring this summer.
Thank you again for the helpful info!
Glad to help... I hope to make it down to Sebring sometime in the next year as well... possibly early in '08 if things go as planned.
When I got the seat I thought I was becoming a better driver... but apparently it only made the car easier to drive.
My students ask me this question all of the time. I usually ask them what their complaints are with their current setup. If they can't answer that, than they have no reason to upgrade anything just yet. At least start off with some good brake fluid and keep an eye on your pads between sessions.
Beginning the learing process in an upgraded car is difficult because the higher speed and adhesion limits can get new drivers into trouble quickly.
Beginning the learing process in an upgraded car is difficult because the higher speed and adhesion limits can get new drivers into trouble quickly.
I think you should take your car out as it is first. When you get a feel for how it behaves, and where it is lacking, you'll have a better idea about what mods you want to get.
This would also give you a better feel for the effect of each mod, so you have a good picture of why your car drives the way it does.
This would also give you a better feel for the effect of each mod, so you have a good picture of why your car drives the way it does.
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 45
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From: Texas
All too often we at NASA Texas see too many folks show up at the track with more mods then acquired driving skills. Typically it takes these folks longer to go fast.
Our chief instructor tests tires for a big tire manufacture. He has a great lecture on high performance tires verse R compounds and why you should learn to drive a stock setup first and progress from there.
Our chief instructor tests tires for a big tire manufacture. He has a great lecture on high performance tires verse R compounds and why you should learn to drive a stock setup first and progress from there.
I think there's lots of good info here...but there are some things ppl should bring for the Z if it's their first time at the track:
-extra set of brake pads (consider getting something more sporty than the OE brakes)
-brake fluid (the OE brake fluid isn't terrible, but it's useful to upgrade to a higher operating temp fluid)
-tire pressure gauge (tire pressure is key for any tire)
...maybe let's start compiling a list of things for new ppl...
-extra set of brake pads (consider getting something more sporty than the OE brakes)
-brake fluid (the OE brake fluid isn't terrible, but it's useful to upgrade to a higher operating temp fluid)
-tire pressure gauge (tire pressure is key for any tire)
...maybe let's start compiling a list of things for new ppl...
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
From: Texas
Originally Posted by first350
I think there's lots of good info here...but there are some things ppl should bring for the Z if it's their first time at the track:
-extra set of brake pads (consider getting something more sporty than the OE brakes)
-brake fluid (the OE brake fluid isn't terrible, but it's useful to upgrade to a higher operating temp fluid)
-tire pressure gauge (tire pressure is key for any tire)
...maybe let's start compiling a list of things for new ppl...
-extra set of brake pads (consider getting something more sporty than the OE brakes)
-brake fluid (the OE brake fluid isn't terrible, but it's useful to upgrade to a higher operating temp fluid)
-tire pressure gauge (tire pressure is key for any tire)
...maybe let's start compiling a list of things for new ppl...
I will add that the most important one is a good attitude one that is focused on listening and learning. I find myself telling students went things click for them that we don't make this stuff up...
Last edited by MSR350Z; Apr 24, 2007 at 06:42 PM.
I think this thread has a lot of valuable posts and very good advice.
To the defense of the OP, I think it is sometimes easy to get carried away, especially when you read this forum frequently.
Then you will hear day in day out about everything from R-comps to BBKs to spring rates, ..... and you hear about all the bad stuff that experts complain about.
And although you haven't felt it yourself, you start researching what you could do to your car, and soon enough are bitten by the MOD bug.
With so many postings, one loses the ability to judge which of the postings is really relevant for oneself.
Like Kolia's thread about R-comps and stock suspension. Anyone reading this will be inclined to invest in suspension before really knowing what he wants.
It is really difficult to not get carried away especially on this forum.
Speaking for myself, I luckily research more than I buy.
However I get confused of what is in the car for real and what I just researched in my mind...
I am glad so far I only invested in brakes, did the VDC center console switch install myself (possibly only triggered by this forum, nobody will ever know whether the hassle was worth it or not and I have not tried VDC on the track yet, always used the switch, and still burned up my rear pads from the stage2 kit), and in my 2nd season invested in dedicated track tires+rims because I can't afford destroying my PS2s.
And I was THAT close going for r-comps for the dedicated track tires, and now I am glad I didn't and went for the Azenis instead.
The trouble with this forum... you read Kolia's post above about eating through Azenis, and the next guy will go buy R-comps for his 1st track day.
And then he reads Kolia's other thread, and he will buy a suspension for his 1st track day...
Bottomline, this forum is worth every penny for the sponsors
To the defense of the OP, I think it is sometimes easy to get carried away, especially when you read this forum frequently.
Then you will hear day in day out about everything from R-comps to BBKs to spring rates, ..... and you hear about all the bad stuff that experts complain about.
And although you haven't felt it yourself, you start researching what you could do to your car, and soon enough are bitten by the MOD bug.
With so many postings, one loses the ability to judge which of the postings is really relevant for oneself.
Like Kolia's thread about R-comps and stock suspension. Anyone reading this will be inclined to invest in suspension before really knowing what he wants.
It is really difficult to not get carried away especially on this forum.
Speaking for myself, I luckily research more than I buy.
However I get confused of what is in the car for real and what I just researched in my mind...
I am glad so far I only invested in brakes, did the VDC center console switch install myself (possibly only triggered by this forum, nobody will ever know whether the hassle was worth it or not and I have not tried VDC on the track yet, always used the switch, and still burned up my rear pads from the stage2 kit), and in my 2nd season invested in dedicated track tires+rims because I can't afford destroying my PS2s.
And I was THAT close going for r-comps for the dedicated track tires, and now I am glad I didn't and went for the Azenis instead.
The trouble with this forum... you read Kolia's post above about eating through Azenis, and the next guy will go buy R-comps for his 1st track day.
And then he reads Kolia's other thread, and he will buy a suspension for his 1st track day...
Bottomline, this forum is worth every penny for the sponsors
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 523
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From: CT
Cut the rear dust shield, that helped a lot in getting me more rear pad life. I just did the mod, my pads were getting 50-100 miles longer.
Azenis is hazardous compare to a set of R compounds. You might be happy with the Azenis now, but you will be even happier with a set of R compounds. Also surprisingly, I can tell you I get the same amount of miles between the RA-1 and the Azenis because I spin and slide the RA1s a lot less. I have both tires downstairs to prove it.
Attached is a pair of Azenis with about 10K miles on it
Azenis is hazardous compare to a set of R compounds. You might be happy with the Azenis now, but you will be even happier with a set of R compounds. Also surprisingly, I can tell you I get the same amount of miles between the RA-1 and the Azenis because I spin and slide the RA1s a lot less. I have both tires downstairs to prove it.
Attached is a pair of Azenis with about 10K miles on it
Originally Posted by pedroosan
I am glad so far I only invested in brakes, did the VDC center console switch install myself (possibly only triggered by this forum, nobody will ever know whether the hassle was worth it or not and I have not tried VDC on the track yet, always used the switch, and still burned up my rear pads from the stage2 kit), and in my 2nd season invested in dedicated track tires+rims because I can't afford destroying my PS2s.
And I was THAT close going for r-comps for the dedicated track tires, and now I am glad I didn't and went for the Azenis instead.
The trouble with this forum... you read Kolia's post above about eating through Azenis, and the next guy will go buy R-comps for his 1st track day.
And I was THAT close going for r-comps for the dedicated track tires, and now I am glad I didn't and went for the Azenis instead.
The trouble with this forum... you read Kolia's post above about eating through Azenis, and the next guy will go buy R-comps for his 1st track day.
My first two track sessions I had the following:
- JWT Popcharger
- BF-Goodrich KDW-2's (Replaced for stock RE040's)
- Valvoline Synthetic Brake Fluid
- Sparco Torino (Had it from my previous car)
- OEM brake pads
Thats all I had. Most of the mods were done because the stuff was used (tires, brake fluid, etc).
- JWT Popcharger
- BF-Goodrich KDW-2's (Replaced for stock RE040's)
- Valvoline Synthetic Brake Fluid
- Sparco Torino (Had it from my previous car)
- OEM brake pads
Thats all I had. Most of the mods were done because the stuff was used (tires, brake fluid, etc).
Originally Posted by tmak26b
Cut the rear dust shield, that helped a lot in getting me more rear pad life. I just did the mod, my pads were getting 50-100 miles longer.
Azenis is hazardous compare to a set of R compounds. You might be happy with the Azenis now, but you will be even happier with a set of R compounds. Also surprisingly, I can tell you I get the same amount of miles between the RA-1 and the Azenis because I spin and slide the RA1s a lot less. I have both tires downstairs to prove it.
Attached is a pair of Azenis with about 10K miles on it
Azenis is hazardous compare to a set of R compounds. You might be happy with the Azenis now, but you will be even happier with a set of R compounds. Also surprisingly, I can tell you I get the same amount of miles between the RA-1 and the Azenis because I spin and slide the RA1s a lot less. I have both tires downstairs to prove it.
Attached is a pair of Azenis with about 10K miles on it
Originally Posted by pedroosan
I think this thread has a lot of valuable posts and very good advice.
To the defense of the OP, I think it is sometimes easy to get carried away, especially when you read this forum frequently.
Then you will hear day in day out about everything from R-comps to BBKs to spring rates, ..... and you hear about all the bad stuff that experts complain about.
And although you haven't felt it yourself, you start researching what you could do to your car, and soon enough are bitten by the MOD bug.
With so many postings, one loses the ability to judge which of the postings is really relevant for oneself.
Like Kolia's thread about R-comps and stock suspension. Anyone reading this will be inclined to invest in suspension before really knowing what he wants.
It is really difficult to not get carried away especially on this forum.
Speaking for myself, I luckily research more than I buy.
However I get confused of what is in the car for real and what I just researched in my mind...
I am glad so far I only invested in brakes, did the VDC center console switch install myself (possibly only triggered by this forum, nobody will ever know whether the hassle was worth it or not and I have not tried VDC on the track yet, always used the switch, and still burned up my rear pads from the stage2 kit), and in my 2nd season invested in dedicated track tires+rims because I can't afford destroying my PS2s.
And I was THAT close going for r-comps for the dedicated track tires, and now I am glad I didn't and went for the Azenis instead.
The trouble with this forum... you read Kolia's post above about eating through Azenis, and the next guy will go buy R-comps for his 1st track day.
And then he reads Kolia's other thread, and he will buy a suspension for his 1st track day...
Bottomline, this forum is worth every penny for the sponsors
To the defense of the OP, I think it is sometimes easy to get carried away, especially when you read this forum frequently.
Then you will hear day in day out about everything from R-comps to BBKs to spring rates, ..... and you hear about all the bad stuff that experts complain about.
And although you haven't felt it yourself, you start researching what you could do to your car, and soon enough are bitten by the MOD bug.
With so many postings, one loses the ability to judge which of the postings is really relevant for oneself.
Like Kolia's thread about R-comps and stock suspension. Anyone reading this will be inclined to invest in suspension before really knowing what he wants.
It is really difficult to not get carried away especially on this forum.
Speaking for myself, I luckily research more than I buy.
However I get confused of what is in the car for real and what I just researched in my mind...
I am glad so far I only invested in brakes, did the VDC center console switch install myself (possibly only triggered by this forum, nobody will ever know whether the hassle was worth it or not and I have not tried VDC on the track yet, always used the switch, and still burned up my rear pads from the stage2 kit), and in my 2nd season invested in dedicated track tires+rims because I can't afford destroying my PS2s.
And I was THAT close going for r-comps for the dedicated track tires, and now I am glad I didn't and went for the Azenis instead.
The trouble with this forum... you read Kolia's post above about eating through Azenis, and the next guy will go buy R-comps for his 1st track day.
And then he reads Kolia's other thread, and he will buy a suspension for his 1st track day...
Bottomline, this forum is worth every penny for the sponsors
OMG! I'm going to have to add disclaimers to all my posts! My shared experimentations results aren't to be mistaken with the beginners recommendations I've also made.
Here:
Warning - Modifications based on this poster's setup/recommendation are entirely made to the vehicle's owner risk and wallet. Modifications were made by the poster, for his needs to match his (slowly) increasing skill level as a driver, at the time of the install. Cash availability was a factor also as he probably wouldn't be driving a little 350Z if he could afford a GT3 RS.
Keep the sunny side up and the rubber side down...
tmak26b I'm surprised you managed to have the Azenis last that long! By 8k miles, mine where bald bald bald...
Last edited by Kolia; Apr 25, 2007 at 04:43 AM.
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,604
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From: New Bern, NC
Originally Posted by tmak26b
Azenis is hazardous compare to a set of R compounds. You might be happy with the Azenis now, but you will be even happier with a set of R compounds. Also surprisingly, I can tell you I get the same amount of miles between the RA-1 and the Azenis because I spin and slide the RA1s a lot less. I have both tires downstairs to prove it.
Attached is a pair of Azenis with about 10K miles on it
Attached is a pair of Azenis with about 10K miles on it
Comments that they are hazardous, and therefore someone should buy a grippier tire is not only false, its is also dangerous. (At least you didn't recommend Hoosier slicks or something.)
Now... buying used r-comps, or any used tire that will see track time might be hazardous because you don't know how many heat cycles they've had, or how long they've sat... but we'll need some more detail with a statement like that if you want us to take you seriously.
Originally Posted by Stack
What's wrong with those Azenis? Other than them being REALLY old (thats the original Azenis, and they do lose their performance after a while)
Comments that they are hazardous, and therefore someone should buy a grippier tire is not only false, its is also dangerous. (At least you didn't recommend Hoosier slicks or something.)
Now... buying used r-comps, or any used tire that will see track time might be hazardous because you don't know how many heat cycles they've had, or how long they've sat... but we'll need some more detail with a statement like that if you want us to take you seriously.
Comments that they are hazardous, and therefore someone should buy a grippier tire is not only false, its is also dangerous. (At least you didn't recommend Hoosier slicks or something.)
Now... buying used r-comps, or any used tire that will see track time might be hazardous because you don't know how many heat cycles they've had, or how long they've sat... but we'll need some more detail with a statement like that if you want us to take you seriously.
tmak26b firmly believes that R-compound tires are much better to learn a car at the limit. We (most top posters in the AutoX/Road forum) tried to convince him otherwise to no avail...
Your turn now! Oh this is going to be fun.