DoctaC

Recently I was looking for info here on the boards for road racing at the central florida racing complex: http://cfracingcomplex.com/. I was told the stock Z brakes would have a hard time there, as well as the need for a higher temperature fluid... and experience. This really got me thinking that I really wasn't ready to commit to road racing.

Since I'm a newb with just drag racing experience, is autocross the better choice? Will I need to upgrade anything for my first auto-x event?

Thanks for your time... and I'm excited to get out there one way or another.

steven350

iTrader: (11)

since its your first time, i say go with the way your car is right now, and push it to its limits, from there, you realize what is needed to help you out.

scotts300

iTrader: (46)

You can do either in a maintained stock vehicle for your first few times. You can/should autox a stock car for at least a year. Once you get more confident with the HPDEs, you'll make a few upgrades.

Parker01

iTrader: (1)

The Z is a brute in stock form... in a good way. In autoX you will experience a ton of understeer due to the tight nature of the sport along with the Z's comfort/everyday road use roll and skinny front tires. Just keep this in mind, look far ahead, know the course and really try to round out your turns to avoid understeer/slipping.

As for hitting a road course, don't go road racing (door to door)... just do some lapping days or time attacks to get comfortable. Drive at 80-90%, don't try to kill. Road courses > autoX. Way more track time and lots more speed but your brakes/tires will suffer more.

One thing I do with my stock Z is run a thick oil: 15W-50 Mobil1, it is better suited for the high heat/RPM of autoX and track days. Just make sure when driving your car on a day to day basis you give it lots of time to warm up before beating on.

plumpzz

iTrader: (10)

I ran about 10 autoX's before I realized what a rip off they are. In my area you pay 50 dollars per day for 10 runs at about 1 minute each. You learn some things such as low speed control and high speed sweepers but technique isnt sharpened since you don't really have enough time to form it.

Road racing is much more expensive (250 per day for the track, racing pads/rotors, cooling equipment), but you get 2 hours of track time per day, a good instructor and you can form technique cause you have more time.

If I was doing it all over again, I'd do autoX or a small road course first to pop my cherry and then do road racing in a larger track.

DoctaC

Hey thanks for all the replies!

I think I will go with auto-x first. The orlando road course I heard has no instructors available and only runs once a month or so, and I believe everyone is out there. I've read several threads showing frustration between beginners and experiences racers being out there at the same time. The plus is that it's only $100.

Are there any other road course options available in the Central Florida area? (I probably should post that in the regional forums)

cubic202

iTrader: (1)

I’m in the same situation over here on the West coast and I’m leaning towards SCCA Auto-X as they appear to be the only game in town. The amount of actual lap/driving time seems to be pretty low and the whole idea of working when not driving does not appeal to me either; I understand the cost benefits to the organization but it’s not my cup of tea. Are there any other organizations out there that offer track time in between SCCA Auto-X and big dollar/big speed HPDE?

dhays

iTrader: (10)

Disclaimer: I've never been on a road course.

I think AutoX is great. It is easy on the car, cheap, and you will become a much better driver. My own feeling is that autocross skills translate much better into real-life accident avoidance than would track time.

The difference in cost is huge. You can take your street car to autocross events and not worry about tire or brake wear. Not so with the track.

Spend some time autocrossing and think about what you would like to do.

Now, having said all that.... I would like to do two things myself. The first is HPDE. I'm not interested in setting up a car for time trials, but the HPDE would be great. The second is an open road race. Again, it can be done with very minimal modifications to the Z as it is.

dennisafrompa

Most of us don't "road race"...I think you mean high speed track days, which are quite different than racing.

Auto X can teach you a lot about car placement and control at a lower safer speed than track days....do 'em both and you'll begin to be a good driver.

burntZ

iTrader: (1)

all these clubs run at sebring. Go there!

http://www.chinmotorsports.com/events/calendar.asp [have instructors]

http://www.safemotorsports.com/info.htm

http://www.drivenasafl.com/ [have instructors]

other than change pads & brake fluid you'll be fine the first times out!

all have very friendly peeps and they run in various levels so that no one is running over newbs!

i'll be there apr 24th with safe if you want a ride along or to ride along!

& it saves $$ in the long run because after going 125 and taking corners at 70 you'll no longer have the 'need for speed' amongst the minivans.

scotts300

iTrader: (46)

I've never heard of any HPDE-ers doing this with the oil before. Have you ever monitored oil temps?

You have a TON of road course options in SoCal: Big Willow, Willow Springs, Buttonwillow, Fontana, are on the top of my head to start. Plus, you have the historic Laguna Seca a mere 5 hours away, and a lot of SoCal-ers make the drive up to do events at this fantastic track.

Agreed, now go do that first HPDE.

cubic202

iTrader: (1)

Yes, thanks I got the speed bug again after an unscheduled visit to Willow Springs back in August. I’ve never been on a track so I think I’ll be starting of on Auto-X before jumping on to HPDE. My goal is to feel the car at its limit and even break it loose under a controlled environment. As much as I love hanging the tail out on Freeway on-ramps, it’s not the smartest thing to do. So it looks like the SCCA is the way to go. I’ll shoot for Fontana and Willow towards the end of the year, Laguna Seca will be must do but my dream would be Spa Francorchamps and of course the Nurburgring…all in good time.

Many thanks

Ataru074

iTrader: (19)

learning how to control the car at 35/45 mph doesn't has nothing to share with keeping the car on the track at 100mph... absolutely nothing.
having the car breaking loose at 35mph and control it with a slight over/understeer is a game where the Z is crippled by "safety" choices... at higher speed becomes more fun and use those safety features as confidence inspiring aid.

my 2cents... go to an HPDE and don't call it "road racing"... it isn't.. it's high speed driving and learning... that's it.

reserved

iTrader: (18)

I totally agree!
I know some folks really enjoy autox, but personally, I found it to be an excrutiating waste of time. One event I went to, I was there for 6 hours and had a total over just over 5 minutes actually driving.
If you just look at the entry fees, autox may look like value for money. But if you do the math, most HPDE's give you much more "bang for the buck".
Just my opinion.

cubic202

iTrader: (1)

Would you mind going to further detail in regards to "safety choices". With a Base model I'm free of TC and VDC at the cost of no VLSD. Are you referring to the 350Z inherent understeer?

thanks.

dhays

iTrader: (10)

Can someone translate this for me? His last sentence is the only one that I think I understand. I'm interested in his opinion, if I could just understand it.

thekinn

iTrader: (18)

X3. Find yourself an HPDE event - with ride along instructor. Get your car inspected (the event host may have recommended shops for this if you are not comfortable doing it yourself). Fresh brake fluid never hurts.

Ataru074

iTrader: (19)

sorry
I mean that the 350z in stock form is setup to have a very mild understeer at the limit. going slower (autox) doesn't help with that, makes only things worst.

an hpde overcomes this limitation and imho has the following advantages:

1) more time spend behind the wheel.. so you can work out your driving issues with your instructor.. (hand position on the wheel, braking, throttle application)

2) no competition / timing pressure.. this is a big one. as man your instinct are telling you that you NEED to win, it's built in our dna.. you don't learn in competitions, you try to do your best using your actual skills.

3) learn how to handle adrenaline rush at high speed, trying to approach the cornering and braking limits at 40mph is something that you can do in a deserted parking lot safely and you drive at the same speed every day... approaching a turn at 120mph+ is something that we don't do often and the adrenaline/anxiety is going to kick in... learning to manage this feeling/chemical imbalance helps in real life / real driving

4) you have other cars around and even if you aren't allow to pass in the beginner group gives you another useful skill like feel the car with your butt, picture the driving line in your mind but keep your eyes mobile going between the track, the car ahead, the mirror and the corner workers... too many people in beginner and intermediate hpde don't do that and they get a $hitload of blue flag.. and they don't even see it.
learn how to do that and you'll became a better road driver, it will tune your instincts to an improved state of awareness.

5) you'll develop a connection with your car, you'll feel the tires becoming greasy (maybe) and what that means, you'll feel the brake pads overheating (hope not) and the pedal giving the first signals... your brain will learn how to interpret the early signs of those situations telling you "dude! something is wrong.. stop and check"... that will make you a WAY better everyday driver and you won't go around on a tire with 10psi of air in, with the toe so screw up that your car goes sideways and with shocks completely blasted.

6) you'll learn to keep your focus for a relatively long period of time.. 20 minutes of 100% focus is a VERY long time if you aren't used to it.

7) you'll learn your body messages... on an HPDE dehydration, heat strokes, mental black out are common and happen especially to who thinks "it isn't going to happen to me"... all those things reduce drastically your capacity to drive...

8) you'll really become a better and safer everyday driver because you'll understand that being "strong" on the road is just plain and simple stupid... and you won't go even close to the limit of your car... so is even pointless to try to impress somebody.

at the end I think that everybody that has passion for cars and driving should go to a race track, if you know how to manage your wallet you'll discover that can be rewarding and cheap at the same time...
you'll learn that a used miata could be faster than a porsche, you'll learn that you don't need a gazilion hp to have fun, that you don't need 18 piston brake calipers, fancy air intakes or expensive wheels to "have more fun".

some people never learn that the whole point is to better yourself, but, in amateurish event... you count WAY MORE that what you drive, you will look at the chips on the paint of your car like a medieval knight did look at the dings and scars on his armor, knowing that they have an history and a meaning, you'll look at your car with disbelief and you'll say her "I didn't know you can do that" with a grin on your face... and every day of your life, in those minutes while your brushing in front of the mirror you'll think about your evolution as a driver and you'll KNOW that you are better.. and the next time you'll seat at a bar, or at work and you hear somebody telling around how his new car is better, faster, much powerful than anything else.. you'll just grin and have that spark in your eyes knowing that doesn't mean $hit and he's far away from being a jedi knight.

I hope this explain better what I was thinking

AznSky

iTrader: (12)

^ Perfect

Man I can't wait till the snow melts up here!!

mhoward1

Great post Ataru.

yes, HPDE is what most people need to thing about. Road racing is a whole other animal.

Most club level HPDE's are some of the best deals out there in this gendre. Most bawk at the entry fees of $250-$350 dollars, but if you look at the price per time it is a smoking deal. At most events you get 6+ hours on track, and then you can also take advantage of listening to experts in the classrooms talk about vehicle dynamics, course lines, etc.

In case you were wondering High Performance Driver Education (HPDE) refers to driving schools held on dedicated race tracks designed to teach drivers proper high speed driving techniques. HPDE events are held by various automobile enthusiasts' clubs at some of the most renowned road-course tracks around the world. The classroom instruction contributes to the overall learning experience and allows peer-group discussions of on-track performance and analysis of track characteristics. A day at one of these events will usually include one or two classroom sessions and three 30 minute track sessions. Many events also include a chance to drive your car on a skid pad.

HPDE events are not racing events. Cars on-track operate under strict "rules of engagement" which minimize the likelihood of dangerous encounters with other cars. Passing among participants is allowed only within defined "passing zones", and then only with clear hand signals and instructor confirmation. Because of this, car to car incidents are very rare.

Remember, as stated above, High Performance Driving schools are not hardware dependent. You generally want to start out with a stock type car on street tires and learn to drive the thing first. Them make objective decisions about where any weaknesses my lie. Most cars need money spent on brakes and cooling systems before adding horsepower. First usually come tire and shock upgrades. Dollars spend on driving school will pay dividends long into the future and allow you to enjoy the capabilities of what you have now. If there are safety issues, by all means, be sure they are corrected before you drive on track.

I have also heard many people say they don't have the funds to do a HPDE ($300), but then spend $2K on performance mods. The best time and money spend is seat time be it the HPDE or the AutoX. Is it worth spending money on performance parts when you haven't learned what the car can do on it's own first? Or better yet, what you know?