kbiz

I got a question for those in the know with brakes. Big brake kits cost big money!! So is anyone in the Z community putting together their own kits, as in buying a pair of calipers, hats, rotors, etc? A lot of racing brake companies sell a huge variety of calipers and rotors/rotor hats that can be used on virtually any car, provided you have... a custom built adapter bracket for the calipers. I've noticed that in the big brake kits, the folks selling these kits often don't show pictures of their brackets or simply list them in the contents of the kit. For instance, Wilwood sells a ton of 4 piston calipers in the $100 - $130 range and 6 piston in the $250 - $300 range. All you would need to do is choose the proper rotor and hat combo, calipers and build the custom bracket which isn't that hard to measure out and machine... provided you have access to a milling machine, etc.

So has anyone assembled their own Big Brake combination? Has anyone machined or had machined the adapter bracket? I also wonder if the guys putting together these big brake kits would sell the adapter brackets by themselves... my guess is they would not, being that if you know the model of caliper they're using and the rotor/hat combo... with the caliper adapter you could assemble the exact same kit for a lot less cash. I know that the brake kit guys/companies are not making the profit on just the bracket, they spent the time and research in choosing and hopefully testing the brake configuration for the kit... but I bet there's a few folks here that could figure out the right calipers if they knew the brackets were easily had.

Maybe someone here has the dimensions for the adapter brackets for different brake kits and this community could benefit from having those dimensions in order to machine or have machined brackets so they could assemble their own kits...

I do a bunch of machining for prototyping, etc and a lot of the online machining communities I frequent post dimensions/plans for a ton of different stuff that others are trying to make money from but in the air of learning and gaining experience are willing to share so that others will share their work in the future... I know that a lot of people would rather spend an additional $1000 in order to simply have all the parts of a kit ready to bolt on. I however like the idea of keeping as much green where it sits...

Personally I'd be interested to see if anyone has Wilwood adapter brackets that would be willing to share/measure the dimensions of theirs... also I'd be interested to know if the bracket dimensions are a patent-able item and if reproducing a bracket for your own use could constitute infringement... I hold several patents myself and I haven't found much of anything that could hold up as infringement even if one decided to sell the brackets outright.

Any info you guys have would be great... I checked through the forums and didn't find any info quite this specific so sorry if it's been thoroughly covered Hey, maybe a group buy on having a shop machine 50 pairs could come of this??? At 100 units the machining cost would be low and I have access to remnant billet aluminum and other metals that could work for the materials. I can prototype a few but not a ton... too tedious and repetitive

Hopefully no kit builders get pissed off, I’m just curious as to what people think about this idea…

glogan

iTrader: (22)

I'm glad you put this thread up cause I just found out you can save a lot of money if bought the BBk by pieces... Anyways, I have the front 4 pot brackets and actually had someone copy the set I have. I can send you the set if you like, I only have the front BBK and had the same Idea you hav for my rears.

Chris03hd

USMC-Z

iTrader: (6)

How much did it cost you to buy everything for the front brake kit? This sounds very interesting as I don't want to spend thousands just to upgrade my brakes. However, if there was a cheaper alternative......

kbiz

I'd definitely be interested in you sending me the set you have. I could mic it out and draw up the plans for them, maybe post them for others if they want to take the plans to a machine shop. Before I had a lathe and milling machine, I used to have a local machine shop make little odds and ends... it really isn't that expensive especially if you tell them there's no rush. I got to the point where I got one of the machinists to do it after his shift for cash...

What Calipers do you have? Are they the Wilwoods? I can't get over how inexpensive the calipers are by themselves... the rotors and hats are cheap too. Usually places that sell stock car racing equipment is the cheapest as they use the same calipers, rotors, etc... plus you get all the tech drawings so you can make sure it all fits. I haven't sourced out the rotor hats yet, but I have found a ton that are the right bolt pattern.

I've been thinking about this for over a year now but I've been so busy with design projects that it wasn't until I was replacing my worn rotors that I was thinking, "It sucks to be spending a couple hundred bucks on replacing worn rotors when for just a little bit more I could have some seriously custom brakes."

If you really want to send me the extra brackets, I'll pay the shipping both ways and give you any other info I've got so far... It would only take me a few minutes of measuring to duplicate the little buggers on paper and probably no more than 45 minutes to make actual copies... I don't have my anodizing station set up but I can do plating... maybe a zinc or alternative...

kbiz

As far as the rears go, I'm thinking you'd want to copy the set-up that one of the kit builders went with... I know things can go crappy if you get to crazy with the rears.

Has anyone tried to buy the brackets by themselves? Like I said earlier, I'm guessing that would be the last thing they're interested in selling.

kbiz

The cheapest concept I've seen so far were new castings of the stock torque member that was stretched. It allows you to put larger rotors on. However, you could make brackets that extend the calipers out further. Larger rotors will give you more braking torque... but I don't have any info as to how much additional stress that puts on the stock calipers not to mention if there is excessive heat build up.

I'd say for the cheapest upgrade one could go with a pair of Forged Dynalite Calipers (around $120 each) and a custom bracket to fit the calipers. These are 4 piston and very light. If you're mainly going for the racing brake look and not Ferrari type braking you could nix the stainless brake lines and just use an adapter for the stock brake line... we'd have to check out the pad sizes and make sure it would fit stock rotors well... but again, all the dimensions are readily available. The only tricky part would be the stock rotor thickness is in between the .81 and 1.25 standard thicknesses... so you would have to also machine spacers for the .81 calipers to bring them out wide enough to accomodate the stock Z rotor.

I think I'd be most interested in duplicating a big brake kit... but it's interesting to think what simple variations are possible.

glogan

iTrader: (22)

Thanks no problem, i'll take you up on the shipping, let me know when. I have the willwood 4 pot front dynalites with 14 inch 2 pcs rotors and i know I paid way over. I'm pretty sure I can order the bolts for the fronts. I'm hoping someone would speak up for the rears, I was quoted $2400 which comes with a new hand brake assembly. Anyways, let me know about the shipping and I'll send them right over.

kbiz

I wonder what the largest rear rotor size, that has the e-brake drum, is on the market... I haven't seen any rotor hat/e-brake drum set-ups. There's got to be an easier way than the old disk brake conversion technique. Maybe you could run a little smaller disks in the back to keep the drum and we could shorten the bracket to accommodate the difference between the kit's rear rotor and the largest drum rotor... then we'd have to accommodate any difference in rotor offset, but that would be easy because we'd know what the kit's rotor's offset was... or we could find out.

Check your PM... Anytime you want to send the brackets is fine. Like I said, it would only take a few minutes to measure it out and then it's done. I could have them back in the mail to you same day or next morning at the latest.

I could probably make a bracket from scratch, but then I'd need the calipers and I'd have to make a jig with a bunch of shims, etc. It'd be much easier to start out with the rear brackets.

KNS Brakes

iTrader: (2)

While your idea is good - in practice I would bet that you will spend almost as much money/time to come up with a system that is poor at best. Example -the forged Dynalite is NOT designed to stop a 300HP 3200 lb car. It is designed to be used on a 1000 lb sprint car. So the acceptable line pressures, stiffness etc will all be compromised by using this caliper. Not to mention that it has no dust boot so you will likely suffer piston damage at some point and have to rebuild it. Also - it uses a fairly small pad so it will likely fade pretty rapidly. You are comparing the prices of entry level racing consumables to street car parts - they are apples and oranges.

I haven't even brought up brake bias or anything like that.
Competition in the brake business has forced margins way down low - 20-30 percent for retailers if they are lucky and a similar amount for distributors/manufactureres.

If you are referring to helping your non-Brembo equipped Z/G you got screwed by Nissan. A single piston Maxima caliper on a 24mm thick rotor is not the brakes of a sports car. Even a lowly WRX has better brakes than that - shame on Nissan.

Brembo take offs are your best option but probably still expensive/hard to find adn of unknown condition (do you really want used brakes on your car?)

The best bang - if it fits - may be to find the M45 brakes as used on the newer G's. That gets you a much bigger 2 piston caliper - still floating but oh well. It also gets you a larger and thicker rotor - thats the real key to getting more brake performance.

Of course you could also get some dimpled/slotted/drilled/coated/plated/painted/zinc'd stock rotors and be the envy of the Dunkin DOnuts crowd.

glogan

iTrader: (22)

The front kit cost me around $1700

kbiz

As far as the wilwoods go, what the kit makers and Wilwood are claiming is that there’s no need for dust boots because of the tight tolerances and as long as you thoroughly clean the pistons before depressing them during pad changes you won’t have a problem… I’m not saying I agree with that, but if the brakes get hot enough you can fry dust boots and I haven’t heard of anyone having an issue with needing to rebuild their pistons on the wilwoods.

As far as the model of calipers go, there are kits using the dynalite 4s, superlite 4s, and Billet superlight 6s. Most of the kits I’ve seen in the magazines and in the popular BBKs, like RMS Horsepower, are the Billet SL6, the radial mount which you can get for under $275 each… or the lug mounts that are even cheaper for under $250… the Billet SL4s are around $200… Both models can use the 1.25” thick rotors.

I’m not saying I know what the “Best” big brake set-up is by any means, but I just noticed that I’m seeing Wilwood kits using Billet SL6 Calipers and some of the kits are over $2k. I wasn’t really thinking of designing a kit but rather toying with this idea: “What if you purchased the identical components of kits that have shown to be well designed and problem free. Would you save a bunch of money? Wouldn’t the brake bias be acceptable if the kit maker did their R&D properly?”

The most interesting thing that got me thinking about this whole thing again is just how popular the fake caliper covers are. There are people buying these fiber/plastic covers that look like brembos, etc. and gluing them on their calipers. I know that sounds ridiculous but I also know that there are a TON of people buying BBKs for the look and not the performance. If that’s what someone is looking for then maybe buying a nice 4 pot wilwood caliper (Billet SL4 $200) and decent larger rotor would be perfectly acceptable for them. And as you mentioned, the basic stock brakes are lame unless you truly drive the car like a Toyota Echo… for cryin’ out loud, I had my first brake job at 15k.

So compared to stock brakes would the Billet SL4s or SL6s really be lame? According to Wilwood about the Billet SLs…

“Utilizing NASCAR Championship know-how, this is the first high production billet six piston caliper designed specifically for High Performance, Muscle Car, Hot Rod, Pro Touring and Sport Sedans.”

These calipers seem to be potent enough for the Z… please let me know if I’m tragically missing something!


I’m leaning towards the Billet SL6s myself but I’m still getting feedback from folks who know from experience and not just the stats. I just think it’s interesting to look into what the cost breakdown is on BBKs and what the alternatives are. It wouldn’t be the first time that lack of available technical know-how led to high prices. It could be that the BBK builders are only making $200 per kit… and I totally believe that a company that puts out a product should make a profit! I think they should make more than $200 per kit… but I think it would be really cool if Wilwood, Brembo, stoptech, and all the others offered mounting brackets for their different calipers as individual items we could purchase. It’s interesting to "find out that the kit makers are not interested in selling their brackets… and that makes perfect sense because they want to sell whole kits, not brackets.

I appreciate any feedback on this concept… and I don’t want this thread to be about arguments since I don’t claim to know anything more than this fact: I can easily reproduce a machined bracket

spf4000

The other thing you really need to consider is the brake balance. Most BBKs go through extensive testing to ensure that the brake balance between the front and rear is optimal.

While you may get good results mixing and matching various calipers, more likely than not you're going to throw your brake balance out of whack, and end up with unpleasant results. You may end up having to try out several combinations of caliper size/piston sizes, and by then, it may end up costing as much, if not more than buying a BBK from the beginning.

kbiz

Sure, but if you actually bought the exact same calipers and matched rotor size, etc. it would seem like you would get the same results as the kit builder does. For instance, Precision Brakes Company has a kit that uses the Billet SL6 Wilwoods and 14" x 1.25" 2pc rotors. If you were to buy all the components separately it seems to me that you'd get the same resulting brake bias... So as long as the kit builder did their homework, you wouldn't have to.

I don't want to be the guy buying a ton of calipers for the sake of reinventing the... well... wheel.

spf4000

Well, it's not that simple. If you bought the same rotors/calipers for all 4 corners, you'd have too much brake bias in the rear, resulting in the rear tires locking up before the front tires, which is a very dangerous condition. For a good explanation of why this occurs, checkout StopTech's website. The problem is that unless you test your set up, you won't know the optimal setting. With so many caliper sizes/piston sizes available, it'll be hard to tell the results without actually trying them out.

If you are insistent on attempting this yourself, my advice is to take a look at the BBK manufacturer's caliper set up front and rear, and take into account the piston sizes they are using, and find a similar set up yourself. That will be better than simply getting the same caliper/rotors at all 4 corners.

kbiz

No, no... I never said anything about having the same calipers on all 4 corners... that wouldn't make any sense at all. What I'm saying is that I wouldn't have to find a similar set up myself... I know exactly what parts they are using and they are easily available. The price for each component of their kits purchased individually comes in far lower than the total kit price. And, most of the kits are not using all high end brand names... many are fabricating hats and rotors themselves... I don't know that that's bad, but I know you can buy wilwood rotors and hats along with mounting hardware and still be lower.

I'm talking about, just as an idea, duplicating a front or full front and rear kit that one of the kit builders is making.

For example, if 4 BBK companies are selling BBKs for the Z and are all 4 using Wilwood Billet SL6 (1.62/1.12/1.12" pistons) calipers up front and Billet SL4 (1.75/1.75" pistons) calipers for the rear... with 14" x 1.25" rotors and aluminum hats... and are charging $4500 and up for the front and rear setup... why couldn't you buy the same SL6 calipers up front and the same SL4 calipers for the rears... and buy the same rotors, hats, pads, etc... copy their brackets... and have the same correct brake bias. There's no reason your new brake setup wouldn't have the same brake bias as that kit builder experienced with their test car.

I'm not interested in experimenting with un-tried caliper combinations nor having giant rear brakes... just simply duplicating a tested BBK and perhaps saving a chunk of money. Just an idea if people are interested in putting in their 2cents. Thanks for the input everyone!

atlsupdawg#2

I for one would be game for something like this. Consider most of the money a DIY tuner would spend is through trial and error. Whether it be refabricating parts that didn't quite work with your caliper setup or just plain buying the wrong parts. Someone eventually has to take that step in order for others to benefit. But, with the help of others with different mechanical backgrounds it may prove to be very beneficial endevour. I have an idea for a budget twin TT set-up that I may run past the boards.

As far as trying to get an idea of brackets and such maybe you can try requesting a set of instructions for a particular BBK. I'm sure they'll provide plenty of pics to get you started. I know AEM makes semi-bbk's that provide larger rotors and brackets that only move your OEM calipers out far enough to accomodate the larger rotors. Another option may be to just set up a BBK for the front and utilize the stock rear rotors with an upgraded caliper. That way you'll alleviate the hassle of trying to find the rotor with the correct hat diameter for the parking brakes.

For brake bias, valves to adjust it are dime a dozen. Jegs, Summit, etc. all carry brake bias valves that are more than capable of providing the correct balance in braking, granted you know how to set it up.

Honestly though, some guys may be real particular about providing you with info for something they purchased full price that you're trying to duplicate for a lot less.

spf4000

I'm sorry, but AEM wannabe BBKs are solely for looks.

Actually, I just want to make sure he's not getting himself into a situation that may end up costing him more in the long run. I was just listing up the things to watch out for. Why do people always make stupid assumptions about people's motives for posting?

atlsupdawg#2

First off I know this. Ideas are what I'm kicking around here. If you are at all familiar with any DIY fabrication then every last one of them, no matter how trivial they may seem, helps.


Second of all nowhere in this remark, nor my post for that matter, mentions, questions nor targets anything you posted. If I had anything to post about your previous remarks you would not have to make any "stupid assumptions" yourself, as I would address YOU directly..

kbiz

You're right on the money with the instructions idea... I actually just received a set of instructions for a a front and a rear kit yesterday. Here are some pics that will illustrate just how simple the bracket concept is:

Front Kit




Rear Kit, including e-brake drum rotor hat



Mounting Dimensions for 4 Piston and 6 Piston:


You can see that the 6 piston and 4 Piston Calipers can use the same mounting bracket for the Front Kit.

Hopefully I'll be getting an extra set of the front brackets to borrow from glogan in the mail soon... Thanks man!!

The idea here is that if the kit builder has designed this kit without needing any kind of bias valve, etc... then if the same kit is duplicated, I shouldn't have to either.

So have people who buy a BBK Front only have bias problems?? The kit companies all say that there isn't any issue with their kits...

So far I've found the Billet Superlite 4 Piston Calipers, used in most of the Wilwood kits, for under $180 each for the current model. The next step is to calculate the proper rotor hat offset for the fronts... the rotor sizing is very easy, but if the hat offset's not perfect, you have to modify the bracket which the whole idea is that I wouldn't have to do that. That and wheel clearance which is easier if I can duplicate that of the kit's. I need to find the rotor hat offset/dimensions of this front kit, otherwise I'll have to measure things on my car...

Thanks for all the feedback everyone, I think this is a really cool concept!!