VQ37VHR goodness
#22
Originally Posted by Trav4011
This engine is supposed to have CVTC as well..
I know the limit on the "jack shaft" as we are calling it, is 11mm lift.. not 100% on the duration, but I was told that the stock setup will be between 290 and 300 degrees. That's a pretty good bit..
The question is.. who will crack the ECU open first.. One company has a head start already, from what I hear.. Must be nice to know people "inside".
I know the limit on the "jack shaft" as we are calling it, is 11mm lift.. not 100% on the duration, but I was told that the stock setup will be between 290 and 300 degrees. That's a pretty good bit..
The question is.. who will crack the ECU open first.. One company has a head start already, from what I hear.. Must be nice to know people "inside".
Who would possibly have access to this new ecu, the engine isn't even in production yet- is it? Did I miss something, because I was under the impression we wouldn't see this until the next Z and maybe the new G35 coupe due next year.
Will
#24
Originally Posted by Trav4011
This engine is supposed to have CVTC as well..
I know the limit on the "jack shaft" as we are calling it, is 11mm lift.. not 100% on the duration, but I was told that the stock setup will be between 290 and 300 degrees. That's a pretty good bit..
The question is.. who will crack the ECU open first.. One company has a head start already, from what I hear.. Must be nice to know people "inside".
I know the limit on the "jack shaft" as we are calling it, is 11mm lift.. not 100% on the duration, but I was told that the stock setup will be between 290 and 300 degrees. That's a pretty good bit..
The question is.. who will crack the ECU open first.. One company has a head start already, from what I hear.. Must be nice to know people "inside".
With 11mm of lift and 300* of duration ... that is adequate for most aftermarket use other than for particular extreme cases. Just about the only other thing that would be beneficial is duration profiling, which can only be altered by the shape of the driving cam. The rest is all ECU work. Man the possibilities are making our 35DE neolithic at best.
Last edited by THX723; 03-22-2007 at 03:55 PM.
#26
Originally Posted by Resolute
With Nissan now using electromagnetic valve timing adjustment, I imagine they would have incorporated this into the new VVEL management as well, don't you think?
Who would possibly have access to this new ecu, the engine isn't even in production yet- is it? Did I miss something, because I was under the impression we wouldn't see this until the next Z and maybe the new G35 coupe due next year.
Will
Who would possibly have access to this new ecu, the engine isn't even in production yet- is it? Did I miss something, because I was under the impression we wouldn't see this until the next Z and maybe the new G35 coupe due next year.
Will
The electromagnetic VTC from the VQ35HR is a stepper, on or off. Regular VTC is hydaulically accuated with infinite steps in operation. Reading in between lines, I recon Nissan switched to the electromagnetic version for the exhuast side sighting heat related accuracy issues w. the hydraulic variety. Infinite step hydraulic VTC is still used on the intake side.
If they're gunning for a late 07 release, the engines will surely have alrady begun prelim production. There's always the few that have insider information (namely some of the JDM's best tuners).
Last edited by THX723; 03-22-2007 at 03:52 PM.
#27
Originally Posted by THX723
Will,
The electromagnetic VTC from the VQ35HR is a stepper, on or off. Regular VTC is hydaulically accuated with infinite steps in operation. Reading in between lines, I recon Nissan switched to the electromagnetic version for the exhuast side sighting heat related accuracy issues w. the hydraulic variety. Infinite step hydraulic VTC is still used on the intake side.
If they're gunning for a late 07 release, the engine will surely have begun prelim production. There are always the few that have insider information (namely some of the JDM's best tuners).
The electromagnetic VTC from the VQ35HR is a stepper, on or off. Regular VTC is hydaulically accuated with infinite steps in operation. Reading in between lines, I recon Nissan switched to the electromagnetic version for the exhuast side sighting heat related accuracy issues w. the hydraulic variety. Infinite step hydraulic VTC is still used on the intake side.
If they're gunning for a late 07 release, the engine will surely have begun prelim production. There are always the few that have insider information (namely some of the JDM's best tuners).
The ECU thing surprises me, as there were a number of copanies very close to Nissan trying to crack the Z33 ecu when it came out, but to no avail. JWT being one of them. To have the ecu for this new VQ, with so much potential in a reprogram, in the hands of tuners so soon seems unlikely to me. Unless this is the basis for the engine in the upcoming GT-R. In which case the heritage of that car has a great deal to do with it's aftermarket support- and it makes some sense that Nissan would want to keep that aspect of the car's allure alive in the new generation.
Will
#28
Originally Posted by Resolute
I see. It makes sense about the heat affecting the hydraulic actuation, but I assumed the electromagnetic activation had some variability based on current. Obviously, I have not really looked into the newer VQ's operation. Although now it seems why even bother, as the VHR is on the horizen. Man, my DE now seems to be as antiquated as the OHV engine in my truck.
The ECU thing surprises me, as there were a number of copanies very close to Nissan trying to crack the Z33 ecu when it came out, but to no avail. JWT being one of them. To have the ecu for this new VQ, with so much potential in a reprogram, in the hands of tuners so soon seems unlikely to me. Unless this is the basis for the engine in the upcoming GT-R. In which case the heritage of that car has a great deal to do with it's aftermarket support- and it makes some sense that Nissan would want to keep that aspect of the car's allure alive in the new generation.
Will
The ECU thing surprises me, as there were a number of copanies very close to Nissan trying to crack the Z33 ecu when it came out, but to no avail. JWT being one of them. To have the ecu for this new VQ, with so much potential in a reprogram, in the hands of tuners so soon seems unlikely to me. Unless this is the basis for the engine in the upcoming GT-R. In which case the heritage of that car has a great deal to do with it's aftermarket support- and it makes some sense that Nissan would want to keep that aspect of the car's allure alive in the new generation.
Will
ECU inners are well guarded by all car manufacturers. Nissan in particular. With the advan of ever more secure electronics, it's becoming far more difficult for people to crack. Gone are the EPROM days. Our ECU is made by Renesas (formerlly Hitachi). The same type of ECU also powers the Mistu EVO and Subbie STi. Those two have been cracked wideeeeee open these days and I suspect w. lots of "inside" help. Nissan seemed to have faired better in that regard. Even that's starting to change with companies like UpRev and Cobb Engineering.
I don't think JWT has the Z33 ECU broken even now. They simply purchased the Tectom programer (distributed by TechnoSquare) and have since done away w. the direct ECU tuning approach for their TT kit. They settled for a custom piggyback at the end. Tectom of Japan was the one that broke the scene first. I also suspect they had some inside help.
#29
Originally Posted by Resolute
I see. It makes sense about the heat affecting the hydraulic actuation, but I assumed the electromagnetic activation had some variability based on current. Obviously, I have not really looked into the newer VQ's operation. Although now it seems why even bother, as the VHR is on the horizen. Man, my DE now seems to be as antiquated as the OHV engine in my truck.
The ECU thing surprises me, as there were a number of copanies very close to Nissan trying to crack the Z33 ecu when it came out, but to no avail. JWT being one of them. To have the ecu for this new VQ, with so much potential in a reprogram, in the hands of tuners so soon seems unlikely to me. Unless this is the basis for the engine in the upcoming GT-R. In which case the heritage of that car has a great deal to do with it's aftermarket support- and it makes some sense that Nissan would want to keep that aspect of the car's allure alive in the new generation.
Will
The ECU thing surprises me, as there were a number of copanies very close to Nissan trying to crack the Z33 ecu when it came out, but to no avail. JWT being one of them. To have the ecu for this new VQ, with so much potential in a reprogram, in the hands of tuners so soon seems unlikely to me. Unless this is the basis for the engine in the upcoming GT-R. In which case the heritage of that car has a great deal to do with it's aftermarket support- and it makes some sense that Nissan would want to keep that aspect of the car's allure alive in the new generation.
Will
#30
Originally Posted by MIAPLAYA
What if instead of a solenoid to actuate the valve a stepper motor was instead used? Granted heat is still a consideration but it should have a more linear response to inputs then a solenoid. Although I wonder if a stepper motor could react quickly enough to be effective. HKS seems to think so in their EVC boost controllers but its a much different system its controlling...
#31
Originally Posted by THX723
I don't think JWT has the Z33 ECU broken even now. They simply purchased the Tectom programer (distributed by TechnoSquare) and have since done away w. the direct ECU tuning approach for their TT kit. They settled for a custom piggyback at the end. Tectom of Japan was the one that broke the scene first. I also suspect they had some inside help.
Will
#32
Originally Posted by THX723
Will,
The electromagnetic VTC from the VQ35HR is a stepper, on or off. Regular VTC is hydaulically accuated with infinite steps in operation. Reading in between lines, I recon Nissan switched to the electromagnetic version for the exhuast side sighting heat related accuracy issues w. the hydraulic variety. Infinite step hydraulic VTC is still used on the intake side.
If they're gunning for a late 07 release, the engines will surely have alrady begun prelim production. There's always the few that have insider information (namely some of the JDM's best tuners).
The electromagnetic VTC from the VQ35HR is a stepper, on or off. Regular VTC is hydaulically accuated with infinite steps in operation. Reading in between lines, I recon Nissan switched to the electromagnetic version for the exhuast side sighting heat related accuracy issues w. the hydraulic variety. Infinite step hydraulic VTC is still used on the intake side.
If they're gunning for a late 07 release, the engines will surely have alrady begun prelim production. There's always the few that have insider information (namely some of the JDM's best tuners).
#33
Originally Posted by Resolute
No, JWT hasn't. Considering how much of their business was tied up in Clark's Z32 and SR20 ecu reprogramming, they really wanted to carry that into the Z33. The flash they picked up from Tadashi at Technosquare was never going to do the job everyone thought it evntually would. I always figured if anyone in the US would crack the Z33 ecu, it would be JWT. Since they have to use a piggy back on their own kit, I guess it's fair to say we aren't going to be able to run reprogrammed ecu's here in the States anytime soon. The controllers are getting far too sophisticated and proprietary.
Will
Will
#34
Originally Posted by Resolute
I see. It makes sense about the heat affecting the hydraulic actuation, but I assumed the electromagnetic activation had some variability based on current. Obviously, I have not really looked into the newer VQ's operation. Although now it seems why even bother, as the VHR is on the horizen. Man, my DE now seems to be as antiquated as the OHV engine in my truck.
The ECU thing surprises me, as there were a number of copanies very close to Nissan trying to crack the Z33 ecu when it came out, but to no avail. JWT being one of them. To have the ecu for this new VQ, with so much potential in a reprogram, in the hands of tuners so soon seems unlikely to me. Unless this is the basis for the engine in the upcoming GT-R. In which case the heritage of that car has a great deal to do with it's aftermarket support- and it makes some sense that Nissan would want to keep that aspect of the car's allure alive in the new generation.
Will
The ECU thing surprises me, as there were a number of copanies very close to Nissan trying to crack the Z33 ecu when it came out, but to no avail. JWT being one of them. To have the ecu for this new VQ, with so much potential in a reprogram, in the hands of tuners so soon seems unlikely to me. Unless this is the basis for the engine in the upcoming GT-R. In which case the heritage of that car has a great deal to do with it's aftermarket support- and it makes some sense that Nissan would want to keep that aspect of the car's allure alive in the new generation.
Will
#35
Originally Posted by Resolute
No, JWT hasn't. Considering how much of their business was tied up in Clark's Z32 and SR20 ecu reprogramming, they really wanted to carry that into the Z33. The flash they picked up from Tadashi at Technosquare was never going to do the job everyone thought it evntually would. I always figured if anyone in the US would crack the Z33 ecu, it would be JWT. Since they have to use a piggy back on their own kit, I guess it's fair to say we aren't going to be able to run reprogrammed ecu's here in the States anytime soon. The controllers are getting far too sophisticated and proprietary.
Will
Will
The UpRev folks seems to have a lot more figured out these days. They of course are keeping them fairly proprietary. We as a community need a break through like the EVO/STi folks. Yay to open source!
Last edited by THX723; 03-22-2007 at 06:19 PM.
#36
Originally Posted by Trav4011
Isn't the VTC solenoid pulsewidth modulated to advance or retard the timing? It's never really resting on a stopper pin until it goes full retard to 0 degrees at higher rpm.. I suppose it's square wave?
I do not however know exactly the inner workings of the electromagnetic variety. It was speculated, although NOT confirmed, that it was a two-step version ... so I have read. I'll have to dig into the '07 service manual for this one when I get home.
Last edited by THX723; 03-22-2007 at 06:21 PM.
#37
Alright, I just search through the service manual and verified EVTC is in fact continuous.
That's would seem to make a lot more sense than taking a step back from VQ35DE-revup's exhaust continous VTC .
Excerpt from the service manual:
That's would seem to make a lot more sense than taking a step back from VQ35DE-revup's exhaust continous VTC .
Excerpt from the service manual:
EXHAUST VALVE TIMING CONTROL
SYSTEM DESCRIPTION
This mechanism magnetically controls cam phases continuously with the fixed operating angle of the exhaust
valve.
The ECM receives signals such as crankshaft position, camshaft position, engine speed, and engine oil temperature.
Then, the ECM sends ON/OFF pulse duty signals to the exhaust valve timing control magnet
retarder depending on driving status. This makes it possible to control the shut/open timing of the exhaust
valve to increase engine torque and output in a range of high engine speed.
SYSTEM DESCRIPTION
This mechanism magnetically controls cam phases continuously with the fixed operating angle of the exhaust
valve.
The ECM receives signals such as crankshaft position, camshaft position, engine speed, and engine oil temperature.
Then, the ECM sends ON/OFF pulse duty signals to the exhaust valve timing control magnet
retarder depending on driving status. This makes it possible to control the shut/open timing of the exhaust
valve to increase engine torque and output in a range of high engine speed.
#38
Originally Posted by Trav4011
They're making baby steps with it.. but, Clark hasn't been able to directly modify all areas of the ECU.. They won't release a product unless it's 100% though..
Will
#39
Originally Posted by THX723
Alright, I just search through the service manual and verified EVTC is in fact continuous.
That's would seem to make a lot more sense than taking a step back from VQ35DE-revup's exhaust continous VTC .
Excerpt from the service manual:
That's would seem to make a lot more sense than taking a step back from VQ35DE-revup's exhaust continous VTC .
Excerpt from the service manual:
EXHAUST VALVE TIMING CONTROL
SYSTEM DESCRIPTION
This mechanism magnetically controls cam phases continuously with the fixed operating angle of the exhaust
valve.
The ECM receives signals such as crankshaft position, camshaft position, engine speed, and engine oil temperature.
Then, the ECM sends ON/OFF pulse duty signals to the exhaust valve timing control magnet
retarder depending on driving status. This makes it possible to control the shut/open timing of the exhaust
valve to increase engine torque and output in a range of high engine speed.
SYSTEM DESCRIPTION
This mechanism magnetically controls cam phases continuously with the fixed operating angle of the exhaust
valve.
The ECM receives signals such as crankshaft position, camshaft position, engine speed, and engine oil temperature.
Then, the ECM sends ON/OFF pulse duty signals to the exhaust valve timing control magnet
retarder depending on driving status. This makes it possible to control the shut/open timing of the exhaust
valve to increase engine torque and output in a range of high engine speed.
Will
#40
Originally Posted by Resolute
Using current to control the hydraulic pressure on the intake side of things via a solenoid is old hat, this electromagnetic system I think has more possibility than meets the eye. Thinking about it more, the oil flow really wouldn't be so affected by the exhaust heat with the actuator being on the front cover, and flowing at a high rate through the system. I don't think it would have any detrimental viscous change due to heat from the exhaust side. I imagine the real benefit to the eCVTC is the lower parasitic loss. No chain, lighter components on the camshaft, lower profile- less mass is always better. Your service manual doesn't give total phase range on timing advance and retard. I imagine being the first system it is not sophisticated enough to offer the range the hydraulic unit can. But, with this new VVEL, I imagine the materials and actuation have improved to the point of being more favorable than the hydraulic action. Maybe a complete removal of the timing chain except to drive the water pump, which would be just a... pump chain?
I don't know, but with the throttle plate itself not being a primary need anymore, electronic actuation of the valvetrain for both timing and lift is the new electronic throttle. If not on the VQ37VHR, then soon I would say, the timing chain will be obsolete, and the accelerator -having already lost the tether of a cable to open a throttle plate- will now be electronically tied to the ecu to directly open the valves with full electronic control of the valvetrain.
Timing chain is in fact obsolete in this case, if not at least for the Valvetronic engines. There's only one belt that drives the ancilliaries.