12SecZ

I have written documentation that my rings are bad.
1, Can they know this 100 % and say so w/o tearing apart the engine?

2. If it is the rings what would symptoms be?

3. Finnanly worst case scenario 2 rings are bad, what am I out money wise? (Or I should say they are out?) 2k, 3k 4k? I just want it back to like it was when I took it there I am not even sure it is the rings but I guess I will have to invest intially to find out. What am I looking at? Tomorow Nissan does a leak test but does that verify 100% the rings are bad like I am being told? It's wierd the car runs great and pulls hard and the only smoke is light grey not black and coming from the SC Air Filter and breather area and slight oil splatters only when under load.

Mechanics feel free to chime in (except FFP please spare me the drame.) The honest guys please lay it all out. What am I up against initially (I will get all labor back plus some I am told and my wife cried at work because of this ordeal and missed a days work so it's civil now with damages.)

Help me out with some facts and numbers if you can.

apex locator

iTrader: (5)

leakdown test will definitely tell you if you have bad rings. you can also have a compression test done to back it up. also, pull the spark plugs and see which ones are burnt.

replacing rings is expensive because it involves a complete teardown of the shortblock. sorry cant give you specific $$ amount for this motor.



khang

12SecZ

They didn't point to any particular cylinder or plugs or offer any advice or help, if they did it was drowned out by his name calling etc. I asked for the plugs and got all 6 back, I guess I could check em. They just said come and get your damn car. This bites.

12SecZ

Well I am torn, because the Might Dave is willing to fix it but we are trying to determine what is the best cheapest route to get it back like it SHOULD be menawhile the maker and the installer keep taking everyon's dollars. I shouldn't even be in this situation someone either ATI or FFP should man up and fix it and save a lawsuit. I shouldn't even be having to ask these questions after dropping 8k on a perfect running car! If I score an engine for 3k is it cheaper to drop in there than to have someone just replce the rings FFP damaged then sue them for that amount or what? Or is it cheaper to just do the rings?

g356gear

iTrader: (12)

I priced out a new shortblock from Nissan for an engine build-up and it was going to be around $3500 US. This included block,crank,rods,pistons.....but no cylinder heads,intake,accessories,etc. Add you're labour and you should be around $5000 to fix you're problem. I am sure however that you can sell the old engine top someone who wants to do a high boost engine and is going to install new rods,pistons,etc. That should ease you're pain.....its hsould pay for you're instaalation of the new shortblock at least.

peptidbond

iTrader: (2)

I am not sure if I am following this right. Let me see if I understand the background.

You had a relatively good running Z and wanted FI, so you purchased an ATI kit and took it to FFP for installation. Some time there after, you started to have problems. It then turned out that you had bad rings.

Is this the case? I just wanted to know what caused the issue.

peptidbond

iTrader: (2)

Nevermind, I just saw your other thread (open letter). Man, I feel for you. Personally, either ATI or FFP should stand up and fix this issue. Personally, I think FFP should be the ones to do so unless they can prove that the kit is bad. It does not sound like it is. They installed it, they should fix it.

teh215

iTrader: (8)

They may be able to just hone the cylinders and fit the pistons with new rings and send you on your way. That may be best case senario. If they need to bore the cylinders .030 over then you will need new pistons and rings not to mention all of the labor involved as the motor will have to come out. You may at this point just want to spend the coin to have the engine balanced and blueprinted and possibly upgrade to beefier internals such as rods, pistons and crank. Good luck.

FFP

ATI Install
I have been moitoring this post for a while. It seems as though everyone has jumped on the band wagon as if Max has stated the facts. Hasn't anyone wondered what the other side of the story is, there is two sides?
One key thing Max has never mentioned is the fact that he raced his car at Sacramento race way with his nitrous & fuel lines crossed up. We were Not aware of this either Until we were WELL into the installation of this kit. I talked to Max about this and he confirmed it to be true. I told him that there could possibly be some damage to the motor (prexisting condition) and that the blower could make it worse. He said that he felt the motor was fine. I think it is kind of funny that during the dyno tuning (with Max present) there was not a problem with the oil, this came apx. 3 days later & the car now has apx 300 miles on it since the install. I will give you an example of a prexisting condition in which you are not aware of the problem but something triggers it. I have heard of people living a normal life but when they go in for an annual check up with the doctor they are told that they have cancer. There may have been small signs of it but it was not really that noticable. They try to treat the cancel but it ends up making the cancer go out of control. This is what I feel happened to Maxs car, the boost made the problem prevelent.
I hate that Max had to be the one with the bad luck, but as he previously stated maybe its carma. Just because he has problems with his car does not mean that ProCharger or us FFP did anything wrong. I have had great success with ATI and they always have been very helpful. I know that this kit is a new kit, but I was very impressed with the quality and had no problems with the install. Once you have installed one they are actually pretty easy. I have installed a ton of ATI kits over the last 5 years & I have never had a problem of this nature, maybe part of the problem is the person we had to deal with? I hope that people will take the time to evaluate the over all picture before staying on Maxs band wagon of smashing. He needs to be an adult and realize this problem did not occur overnight. They were things that lead up to this that had nothing to do with ATI or us. He needs to take responsibilty and not pass the problem off on someone else. We as well as ATI have tried to help him, but we can not take resposibilty for something we did not do.
Look at his cars horse power before the procharger as well as the after. Make note that his car prior to the ATI install had a Injen cold air kit, a modified intake manifold & a complete after market cat-back. His horse power was just a little shy of what I here stock 350z's making, shouldn't the power be higher with all these mods? After the ATI install his car was down on horse power from what ATI says it should be and his car now has Borla headers & Borla complete cat-back. This further confirms that there probably was a prexisting condition.
Please click on the link below so you can see the otherside of the story. Make note of the dates on the e-mails as they might not be scanned in the proper order. Here is something that I thing is quite humorus, pay close attention to the missing part of the Injen cold air kit. This missing piece caused his friend to lose a race because he installed the kit without it. Also note his friend never actually installed the kit so how could he have lost a race because of it? Better yet how could the car have even run without a mass air meter? Thanks for your time, Iwill post his dyno info. on the next post.

http://www.forcefedperformance.com/maxson/index.htm

FFP

They didn't point to any particular cylinder or plugs or offer any advice or help, if they did it was drowned out by his name calling etc. I asked for the plugs and got all 6 back, I guess I could check em. They just said come and get your damn car. This bites.

Go to the link on our last post and you will see that we gave him a list of the condition of each cylinder. We listed the compression as well as the leak down percentage of all 6 cylinders.

del105

iTrader: (4)

FFP, this really concerns me. You being the expert here knew there was a prexisting problem with Max's engine, or so you say. A good business practice in cases such as these is to refuse to do the work or diagnose and fix prexisting damage before going further. You being the expert you should be held liable for damages. It is your responsability to correctly diagnose and solve problems not to make them worse.

If there was any question in your mind that the ATI procharger could damage the car further you should not have installed it.
Clients come to you for your knowledge of cars not for some haphazard fiddling that can cost thousands to repair.

just my .02

peptidbond

iTrader: (2)

I must say a couple things. First, this seems like a personal issue between FFP and Max. I don't think that the opinions of other board members will help or hinder this. That being said, I think that Max just wanted to come here for help and advice.

So here is my advice. I did find it surprising when I first read this thread that a supercharger could cause this kind of damage so quickly. I have heard that the ATI install is pretty easy and that FFP has done many of them. The claims made by FFP above seem to make sense. I have not looked at the linked web page because of my own ethical beliefs. However, again, I think this should be solved between the two parties. Our opinions may not be helpful at all.

[flame suit on] slowly backing away...

elektrik_juggernaut

didn't you guys post a dyno of his car showing 362.5rwhp?.......everybody else seems to be getting around 350rwhp.......ATI said he should be getting more than 362.5rwhp?.......how did a car with bad compression put out that much power?

nonmature

SGP has a set of pistons for $1320 11.5:1 or 8.5:1 this includes the pins, locks, and RINGS why not swap the new pistons and solve the problem... just tryin to get you a cheap solution max

but honestly I would upgarde the rest of your internals as well, well actually the valve train and the rods at least... but anyways theres your cheap solution...


and too FFP I dont think anyone can read anything from your link cause I've tryed to look at home and at work please post the leak down test results and the dynos... also we have had much fluctuation in the HP output of the Z's so I wouldnt call that solid proof... I think we've seen people with intake, exhaust, etc. that only pulled a 238 on the dyno(i think it was dont quote me) and naturally if you have low numbers to start with your goin to have lower numbers when you mod it... its a no brainer... not to mention there are a million other things that could be causing that power to be lost...

-non

FFP

If you look at the actual dyno sheet (I will put it up on the link later today along with his data log info. sheet that we gave him) with his accurate numbers there is a dip at the top of the graph. Max said that alot of people are having problems with false knock so they are relocating the knock sensor. He felt that this dip might have been just that. So he asked us to print him 2 graphs, one being his real one & another one estimating what he thought his car might make if the dip had not occured. He was going to find the thread that he had mentioned about relocating the knock sensors. Once he found the info. we were going to relocate the sensor and redyno his car for him. This graph was purely an estimated graph, that he requested. He was upset at his real hp numbers and was hoping that the relocating of the knock sensor would bring his hp numbers to where they should be. I am not sure but I believe that he had our secratary post his dyno sheet for him while Bill & I were back in the shop cleaning up. I will have to ask her when she comes in later today.

elektrik_juggernaut

Here you go:

elektrik_juggernaut

So you're saying that this not the real dyno?........that this one was fabricated?

FFP

The link will be up and working later today. I had originaly pulled it down temporary until we got it fixed but Max copied it and reposted it before we had a chance to fix it. I agree with you about the hp, if its low to start then it will be low when it done. With this being the first 350Z we were not sure what was considered normal for power. It was not until the car was done and Max was unhappy with the hp numbers that we started looking into things. It was at this time that we realized that his numbers were low to begin with. Then things started adding up, improper nitrous install possible internal problems. Wish we had know all the facts about the car prior to was having the car torn apart for the ATI install.

FFP

That dyno sheet is the estimated one he asked for, that is not the real one. He chose to post that one and not the real one because he was upset by his numbers. I will have the real one posted on our link in a little while.

nonmature

what the hell is wrong with those stock numbers... we've seen much worse... this is well within the stock dyno graphs we've seen

-non