iklim

here's the current Yen price in usd.
480,000 yen is 4,383.96 usd.
so i guess shipping from japan to here is about $1000 right?
BTW i used the current exchange rate from yahoo.com.

Traffic

Ok.

Traffic

I was going to let you slide, but I changed my mind. From my perspective you are bashing the company by belittling this point.

Looks like bashing to me.

Mr B, nor any other company, is obligated to explain their prices to you.

Do everyone a favor, and as best you can, break out the cost of

tariffs,
duties,
taxes, and
shipping,

But you still won't know what the mark-up or mark-down is, not without knowing the actual cost Top Secret incurred when they made the kit, not just the cost of materials and production, but also research, test vehicles, discarded models/versions, and all associated labor costs.

phile

Umm, if you read more carefully you'll see that I got the quote from a previous post. I personally did not "subtract two zeros"
The sole reason I persued my questioning is because you legitimized your high price due to exclusivity. If you don't believe me, re-read your previous posts.

Now, if you read iklim's post below, he is right. 480,000 yen is 4328.223624887286 USD (courtesy of calculator.com)

So if the RETAIL price of the body kit is 4328.22 USD in japan, I would hope you are not paying retail. Assuming you aren't paying retail (what vendor pays retail?!), then your markup to $5700 seems even more outrageous. That's my whole point.

Traffic, having read the above, do you still think that "taxes, duties, tarrifs, and shipping" justifies a $1400 USD markup OVER retail? I am replying to your posts because it seems more carefully thought out than your previous post. However, I think you need to go to www.dictionary.com and look up the word bash. Although I may be accusing bulletproof of price gouging, my smileys and comments in the quotes you posted could hardly be considered as bashing. Bashing to me carries a violently harsh connotation. It's funny, becuase not only does your argument hold very little validity, but the person you are defending said himself "you gotta pay the price for exclusivity". That hardly sounds like "you gotta pay the price for high tarriffs, shipping, duties, and taxes". Nice one.

topsecret2001

iTrader: (1)

You guys need to check the website more often, ( www.topsecretjpn.com ) the Yen price is 504,000 Yen in Japan. The U.S. retail is $6,000. If you fly to Japan, pay the price, add tax, duties, shipping, etc. etc. to get it back over here, you will understand why the retail price is what it is. (You are more than welcome to try it)

Alot of manufactuers have been raising their prices because of increased exporting fee's in Japan as well as the already noted change in exchange rates. (which is also not as simple as getting the going rate for your dollar...there are exchange fee's and whatnot)

The point being, it is not "mark up," but in fact, a price that factors in the increased cost of selling the kit outside of Japan.

We do performance engineering and we don't compromise on quality when designing or developing products. There are NO comparable kits on the market at the moment. If the price isn't agreeable with you, the answer is simple, do not purchase it.

phile

I'm arguing more for the sake of understanding, and proving a point, than I am in contest to the fact of the high price. It's my fault for using knowledge that I did not reaserch myself. I relied on the price posted by another board member.

504,000 yen translates to 4544.63 USD. So Japan retail is about $1500 lower than US retail. Bulletproof automotive does not pay 4544 retail in order to get the kit to sell. That would be absurd. I'm sure if I flew to Japan and purchased the kit, it would cost quite alot because of al the other incurred costs. However, that is precisely why consumers purchase good from retailers and wholesalers...that's their job, to provide the consumer with the product no matter where it is (and not to charge a price as if the consumer would fly there and do it htmeselves)! The whole point of a being a retailer is that through contracts involving future obligations, they can get the product cheaper than the consumer would be able to, usually because of some bulk purchase agreement. So I correct what I said above, I apologize to bulletproof automotive, and I accuse Top Secret of price gouging That is, unless tariffs are REALLY high.

For 4544.63 USD (504,000 yen), the Top Secret kit is an absolute steal. Superior quality, looks, and fitment i'm sure. for $6000 USD, it's an absolute ripoff.

My questions really never get answered. All you guys provide are blanket statements and ambiguity which do not really address the core issue. You could easily prove me wrong by posting how much tarriffs are right?

I guess we should just drop it

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

As someone who imports parts on a bi weekly basis for myself and customers, and have for longer than just about anyone else on this or any other site,one thing remains constant. Japan list prices have positively, absolutely, zero to do with US list prices.

If you were in this business, and knew the costs incurred in actually bringing these parts to these shores for sale, you would see what I meant I suppose. First and foremost, the Japanese do not discount like stateside suppliers do....regardless of volume. They never have, they never will. Second, there are shipping costs within Japan. If shipping by boat, someone has to pay for the kit to be sent from TS (or any manufacturer) to the docks for loading on a container. Then the vendor needs to pay for the container from Japan to the US (you don't want to know what they cost!). Then the items ship to the US. It arrives and goes to customs for clearance. In order to clear the items through customs, you need a clearing agent. Prices for them vary by commodity country of origin, value of the shipment, etc. As a regular importer, the US gov't requires you to be bonded as well, which also costs money (actual costs varies by the annual commodity value you import). There are then customs duties due upon clearance of the shipment (typically 3% of the total shipment value). And finally, you have to pay to have the items delivered from the port in the US to your warehouse. Then of course you have your warehouses rent, lights, phones, staff, insurance, licenses (varies per state). This is not a business where the retailer sees markup percentages found in some other businesses....and in the competitive (and I use that term loosely, as it is far more dramatic than that) market we find ourselves in, the margins shrink further and further on many lines.

As for the Evom comment, I cannot let that one slide....to be honest, the customers there have a far friendlier attitude than the majority on this board do.....I find it odd myself, but being an active participant on both boards, I think I'm in a unique position to comment

My suggestion, is call around to Japan, and see what the kit sells for there. Then price out the shipping to the US, inclusive of all the costs, and you'll soon find that while the kit is expensive, the price they are charging is not out of line in the least.

topsecret2001

iTrader: (1)

As Z-1 stated, you are basing this all on the idea that Japanese and US prices are always equal and related. You can make all the arguements you want but the bottom line is, you are more than welcome to purchase the kit in Japan and see how much taxes and importing it will hurt your wallet. Japan is not the U.S. and there are alot of different laws, taxes and variables that do not exist in the U.S. You really shouldn't make comments about what we are "responsible" for and how we should conduct our business without learning more about business, specifically importing. We don't take a look at your pay stubs and tell you that you're "price gouging" your employer because we know someone in another country with the same job that earns less.

iklim

ok it was my fault posting some outdated price.
it was 480000 yen few month ago. (y did they raise it!!)

quote from z-1
First and foremost, the Japanese do not discount like stateside suppliers do....regardless of volume. They never have, they never will.

this is not quite true.
japanese r actually fairly flexible on their prices.
well i never purchased a bodykit from them, but i have many friends who bought electronic stuff (digital cameras, CDP's, etc).
anyhow, if some can come up with detailed pricing like Traffic said, we will be better understood on bullet's "reasonable" price.

ether

i'll give a local prespective.. a broad generalization but fairly true.. for aftermarket auto mods prices are pretty sticky over here, once in a blue moon do you find discounts on quality components.. second.. if i tried to order this, local shipping would be significant and i'm not that far away from TS.. about 1.5 hours drive.. the dynamics of the electronics industry is very way different... i'll give a different example to show you the absurdity of things... i've been looking to get some BBS wheels which are made here in Japan. yet the best retail price i have found is, get this, 50% higher than the best retail price in the US.. so its cheaper if i buy them from someplace in the US and get them shipped back to Japan.. its different over here than in the US in some many ways

350z-z33

iTrader: (5)

I agree with Adam at Z-1 Performance completely........the profit in this aftermarket auto parts business is getting lower and lower and this will force some business to close up and then consumers won't get the cool parts that's out there now.......

bulletproofBen

I've just seen this topic, and it appears to be quite a mess.

I'd like to thank Adam of Z1 for lending an informed perspective to this discussion.

In short, people will always want a lower price and I understand this. I also understand that its frustrating to not be able to afford desired things, so naturally there will be some aggravated people who want Top Secret parts and can not afford to purchase them.

Top Secret's product line is different than other Japanese product lines. Top Secret is a smaller manufacturer than most that the US market is accustomed to having state side. Top Secret is not like a HKS or Volk. In Japan Top Secret generally does very little wholesale business, something that their discounts and pricing structure reflects.

While for some brands such as SSR wheels, kg/mm springs, fujitsubo exhausts, we'd be happy to sell at the current yen translated price, there are others that are not possible (Top Secret is one). SSR, kg/mm and fujitsubo are larger manufacturers who have very different pricing structures. Our costs are low enough to offer more affordable levels of pricing in the US. This allows us to price them at a much more affordable level. Whenever this is possible, we do it.

Truth is, Top Secret has had complaints in the US from both sides. Some people say the price is too high, while in other cases, dealers have been surprised that the prices are too low.

Yes, that is true. For those of you that know the Supra market well, the previous prices for Top Secret aero parts were considerably higher than the newly established prices by Top Secret. Top Secret dealers for the Supra have lowered their prices to the new retail level.

As someone had said earlier, if you think the prices are high now...try importing something large from Japan yourself. I've had customers that have paid $1400 to have a bumper and side skirts air freighted from Japan to California. That was just a bumper and sides...now we're talking about a full widebody kit...

Ok...so air freight is a rip off, good luck with ocean freight. Doing less than full container load, or even worse, just a couple of parts, will cost you nearly as much as air freight. The actual Ocean freight charges in this case are the cheaper cost than all of the paper work, handling charges, customs clearance and other fees that a freight forwarder will hit you with when shipping by ocean. Never mind domestic freight in Japan to the freight forwarder. Never mind the wire transfer fees and approx 2-3% losses in currency exchange. Never mind that most of the smaller companies in Japan dont speak a drop of English.

Our business exists to facilitate the importing process of rare Japanese parts. We have a warehouse in Japan, we have Japanese speaking staff in Los Angeles and Tokyo, and we have industry connections to do all of the difficult tasks for our customers. We import over 200 brands from Japan and we price our parts as affordably as possible.

If after everyone else’s explanation and now my own, anyone still feels the need to be upset about the price, I'm sorry. I wish we could make everyone happy, but it's never possible. We try our best to keep products affordable, while still making enough money to pay our employees and bills...it's a tough thing to do. In the case of Top Secret, the Japanese HQ in conjunction with Top Secret III has established official US pricing. It is what it is, and despite many people's wishes, Top Secret will never be an economy brand.

With that being said, Bulletproof always has and always will have a price match/beating policy. For those extremely concerned about price, come to us with a lower price for the same part/service and we'll beat it.

I unfortunately cant not continue to remain active in this thread, I have too much work to do at the office these days. However I did want to post this and share my thoughts with you all.

Thank you all for the support.

Ben Schaffer
President
Bulletproof Automotive, LLC

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

I cannot begin to delineate the costs to bring over a single body kit by boat as I have never done it.

We have brought them in by air for customers before, and the costs are well over $1000 for shipping alone....often closer to $2000.

How much does it cost BP to bring in a single TS kit? I have no idea, as I don't work for them....but given what is involved in importing parts in the first place, I have to say the kit is priced right where it should be for the US market.

iklim - the performance parts market does not have markups like the electronics market does. Electronics (camera, etc.) you are talking markups of 100% and more many times between wholesale and retail. In the performance parts biz, there is no where near that kind of margin unless your whole business is based on selling grounding kits.......the reasons are numerous, but logical - there are no multinational conglomerates in this business as there are in electronics. Companies like Olympus, Sony, Canon, etc etc are HUGE HUGE corporations with thousands of employees worldwide. By comparison, a company like GReddy or HKS, while "big" in the performance parts business, would simply be a single division in one of the multinationals.

phile

Topsecret2001:

I aksed several questions early on. All anyone provided were general blanket statements. It took all this time to answer all my questions properly, unfortunately. As for your rebuttle on price gouging, I think you need to look up what price gouging is. What an employer chooses to pay me is in no way price gouging. That does not make sense. If I had a rare skill that no one else could perform, and I charged my eomployer say $400/hr, eventhough it was effortless work to me, THAT I would consider price gouging. But what employee sets the price of their labor? Contractors do that kind of stuff

Z1/Ben, thanks for the insight. That's all I was asking for in the first place.

The whole reason I started my questioning in the first place was NOT because I was upset about the price, but because Mr. B made comments like "Gotta pay the price to be exclusive... " and "I'm sure if it was 3500, everyone would get it. Now who wants a kit that everyone else has?" I was more aggrivated at his justification of the price hike, than the price itself. If he had answered my questions in a more straight forward manner, I probably would have shut up.


Anyways, all in all, I was not upset at any point in this thread. I just like to argue, especially when i see a weak spot. A breakdown of the whole process by Z1 and Ben really showed me where I was wrong. Very thoughful and interesting posts.

bulletproofBen

hehe...Right you are.

ask most people in the automotive industry what the term "keystone' means and they'll have no clue. (a keystone markup is a 100% markup, common in most industries, but surely not the automotive aftermarket).

The only company I can think of that works this way would be AEM...but then you look at the average street price of their parts being 25-35% off of the list price and list price ends up being virtually meaningless.

bulletproofBen

Understandable explaination Phile.

In the future, if anyone has any questions about how someone runs their business and needs an answer, talk to the owner.

The guys who work with me are very intelligent, however they do not set prices, I do. If you need an accurate answer for the meaning or reasoning of why a policy or price is in place, go to the source. I'm here and those that know me understand that I tell it like it is.

That is why my name and everyone else on my staff has their name, email address and title all published on our website. The titles are there to determine who is the right person to talk to. In this case, it would have been me in the first place. If anyone needs to reach me, just email ben@bulletproofautomotive.com

Ben

phile

Point well taken. I should have known in the first place I'm just used to discussing things on the board.

On a side note, I really like the INGS+1 low mount CF wing for the 350z. I know you guys probably have the lowest price, but I could never justify paying almost $2k for a wing. From what I can see on your site you don't sell replica kits right? Would you ever consider selling replicas, or would that conflict too much with your current business strategy? Also, have you ever considered some form of verticle integration that would allow you to produce your own kits or kit replicas?

bulletproofBen

We would never sell replicas. Replicas steal from the companies who put the time, money and marketing into producing the original parts that are popular enough to get ripped off.

Furthermore, replicas are the reason why many Japanese companies do not have proper distribution in the US. Think about it, who wants to take the inventory risk on a part that in a best case scenario is well received and then promptly ripped off by some cheap fiberglass company who wants to make a quick buck by selling a generally poor quality/fitting product while riding off of the hype of the geninue part.

Customers all of the time ask me why we dont have part xyz in stock. The answer is usually either A. Because its very rare and doesnt sell consistantly, or B. Because it's been knocked off already.

Its an ethical issue and a business issue. Replicas do not agree with me in either lights.

I represent Japanese companies, I would never steal from them. Not to mention that in my opinion I consider shops that sell or are involved with the production of replicas to be a little shady and illegitimate.

Sorry to be so harsh, but I obviously feel strongly on the issue.

And yes, I have considered producing our own kits with the contacts that we have in Japan. Its on the back burner for now, but eventually we'll probably be producing a small line of parts. Right now I want to focus fully on distribution and logistics.

phile

I never really thought of the impact of replicas on the market. I purchased my 350z last year (Had an RSX-S before that), and have really been a part of the import car scene for only a short amount of time.

Instead of producing your own kits with your own name, have you ever considered liscensing the rights to a body kit? Has this even been tried in the aero part industry? This practice would seem very respectable to me. It would be a nice way to keep prices between US and Japan low on both ends.

Some people may wonder what the point of liscensing would be if you can legally just replicate the kit. Although that is true, to me, this seems like a great strategy. You could create an honorable bond with a valued aftermarket company of your choice. Along with liscensing the name, the company could also advise you on special techniques they use with certain materials, tolerances for varying grades of material, etc. Obviously startup cost is huge, and skilled workers are a must, but provided you have the capital, it seems like a good venture.

I know your focus is on distribution and logistics. So I'm asking your opinion of this idea, not in terms of your company, but in terms of a company as capable as yours.

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

I don't think you would ever get a Japanese firm to agree to licensing....I know as the owner of my own company, I would never license one of our products for reproduction elsewhere. Again, brand recognition in this business is everything. We are not competing in a marketplace where you can go into Best Buy and have products displayed on the shelf....by comparison, the market for true to form JDM items is a very slim one, and the amount of people who actually buy are even slimmer.

As for replica's....I think everyone knows where I sit on that one already. It's not about the quality, it's about the theft of the product in the first place that I am ethically opposed to. Does that mean everything is worth it's asking price? Absolutely not - the two are mutually exclusive. However, those of us in the industryt for a long time know and understand where the quality is, and we often ahve actual first hand experience with "X" genuione brand part from Japan.

Adam