turbo vs. supercharger revisited
12-24-2002, 06:44 PM
#81
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that must of taken you along time to post wicked1, but well said. as for the lag, if you get a proper sized exhaust housing or seqential twin turbo setup, the lag will be unnoticeable. turbos are really the only way to go in my opinion, and my car will attest to that. boost is present just about everywhere in any gear.
franklinz
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12-24-2002, 06:52 PM
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Sorry i never said that i wrote that : But the article was sent to me by a supra turbo buddy of mine that found it on a supra forum . The Article is very nice and gives good pionts .
12-26-2002, 12:35 PM
#83
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Hello wicked 1
I can't quote your post since it's really too long.
I agree with you 100% that turbo is a more effective way to boost engine power than supercharger. But I must say that again turbo lag does exist, both acceleration or de-acceleration.
Boosted air is easier to pass thru restricted area than non-boosted air. So, for same valve design, boost flow lots more flow than non-boosted. This is really a two side sword. Let's just say at full power, (WOT, engine 6,000rpm, turbo 100,000 rpm) you decide to cut down throttle to half) Engine response quickly, however, despite less exhaust gas, turbo take a little longer to spin down. So even with a fix throttle position, the output of engine take longer to cease. The air pass restriction great also apply here, in this case, your butterfly.
Race driver of turbo always need to keep their engine boost high, even while cornering, even while they don't need those huge torque now, they have to prepare their turbo spooling . For NA engine, once the restriction of air pathway has been taken away, more air flow and more fuel make the extra torque instancely. However, on a turbo engine, even applied throttle, torque is also depends on how fast the turbo is spining. It takes sometime to spin a turbo from 50,000rpm to 100,000rpm. Yeah I know, you can prepare your turbo for it, but what if you didn't.
Turbo lag is now down to few tenth of second now. It maybe nothing on highway chase, but while apply torque steering, it's essential.
As I said, I agree with you turbo is definely more effective than supercharger, that's why you don't see a supercharge diesel big rig. Always turbocharged. Someone once told me, (yet I think too bold a statement), it should stay there.
I agree with you 100% that turbo is a more effective way to boost engine power than supercharger. But I must say that again turbo lag does exist, both acceleration or de-acceleration.
Boosted air is easier to pass thru restricted area than non-boosted air. So, for same valve design, boost flow lots more flow than non-boosted. This is really a two side sword. Let's just say at full power, (WOT, engine 6,000rpm, turbo 100,000 rpm) you decide to cut down throttle to half) Engine response quickly, however, despite less exhaust gas, turbo take a little longer to spin down. So even with a fix throttle position, the output of engine take longer to cease. The air pass restriction great also apply here, in this case, your butterfly.
Race driver of turbo always need to keep their engine boost high, even while cornering, even while they don't need those huge torque now, they have to prepare their turbo spooling . For NA engine, once the restriction of air pathway has been taken away, more air flow and more fuel make the extra torque instancely. However, on a turbo engine, even applied throttle, torque is also depends on how fast the turbo is spining. It takes sometime to spin a turbo from 50,000rpm to 100,000rpm. Yeah I know, you can prepare your turbo for it, but what if you didn't.
Turbo lag is now down to few tenth of second now. It maybe nothing on highway chase, but while apply torque steering, it's essential.
As I said, I agree with you turbo is definely more effective than supercharger, that's why you don't see a supercharge diesel big rig. Always turbocharged. Someone once told me, (yet I think too bold a statement), it should stay there.
12-26-2002, 01:08 PM
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"Boosted air is easier to pass thru restricted area than non-boosted air. So, for same valve design, boost flow lots more flow than non-boosted. This is really a two side sword. Let's just say at full power, (WOT, engine 6,000rpm, turbo 100,000 rpm) you decide to cut down throttle to half) Engine response quickly, however, despite less exhaust gas, turbo take a little longer to spin down. So even with a fix throttle position, the output of engine take longer to cease. The air pass restriction great also apply here, in this case, your butterfly."
if im reading this correct thats what blow off valves are for. it takes the positive air pressure from the intake tract, and purges it to eliminate any more air from hitting the intake turbine and spinning it in a backwards motion.
of course there will be lag in a turbo car (for now) but like i said in another post, manufacturers are hard at work on ways to get around it, ie. electric assist motors.
also in turbo cars to keep the boost from dropping while shifting, some will actually double clutch (push clutch in, shift to neutral, release clutch, push clutch in, shift to next gear, all while your foot is floored on the throttle) ya got to be fast too! this way the engine isnt dropping any revs or any boost
i remember reading that somebody actually developed a mini-turbo inside the alternator, the thing actually supplied juice, and while its spinning it also provided some extra air on the low end to help out the main turbo.
franklinz
if im reading this correct thats what blow off valves are for. it takes the positive air pressure from the intake tract, and purges it to eliminate any more air from hitting the intake turbine and spinning it in a backwards motion.
of course there will be lag in a turbo car (for now) but like i said in another post, manufacturers are hard at work on ways to get around it, ie. electric assist motors.
also in turbo cars to keep the boost from dropping while shifting, some will actually double clutch (push clutch in, shift to neutral, release clutch, push clutch in, shift to next gear, all while your foot is floored on the throttle) ya got to be fast too! this way the engine isnt dropping any revs or any boost
i remember reading that somebody actually developed a mini-turbo inside the alternator, the thing actually supplied juice, and while its spinning it also provided some extra air on the low end to help out the main turbo.
franklinz
Last edited by franklinz; 12-26-2002 at 01:15 PM.
12-26-2002, 02:37 PM
#85
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[i]
" if im reading this correct thats what blow off valves are for. it takes the positive air pressure from the intake tract, and purges it to eliminate any more air from hitting the intake turbine and spinning it in a backwards motion.
" if im reading this correct thats what blow off valves are for. it takes the positive air pressure from the intake tract, and purges it to eliminate any more air from hitting the intake turbine and spinning it in a backwards motion.
You are confused. Blow off valve can stop turbo boost too high, but can it shorten the time for turbo to slow down?
For instance, you set the boost limit at 16psi, I know blow off valve can protect engine from getting a pressure beyond it. But I didn't know it will, for say, help you lower the boost from 16psi to 7psi.
Doesn't matter how much technology you use one turbo engine, it's output curve won't be as linear as NA or SC engine. Which characteristic is most desireable at advance driving. SCC magzine told a story about a Mist EVO reduce its output from 600hp to 450hp, they call it an improvement for a reason. When it come to driving, output isnt everything.
12-26-2002, 06:31 PM
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Originally posted by Wicked4u2c
as i said you reached peak tourque at 3000 rpm, does not mean you are at peak boost pressure.
uh.... Again... the meters and everything monitoring my manifold pressure read 8PSI of manifold pressure at under 3K RPM. Are you saying I will get more PSI at 6K? And even more at 8K? Because if that was the case than I must be boosting over 13PSI because the computer and electronics read 8PSI (PRESSURE) at under 3K but your saying more pressure at higher RPM's so that means at 8K RPMs I must be overboosting?
Wicked1:
Because of the direct drive nature of a supercharger, flow and pressure generated by the supercharger increases in direct proportion to crank and hence engine revolutions. If an engine redlines at X rpm, the maximum boost (Z) that the engine will tolerate will also be set to coincide with X rpm, so that you are neither losing performance or damaging the engine. This means that at half X rpm, boost pressure from the supercharger will also be half Z of the total available. This is a disadvantage compared to a turbocharger as a modern turbo correctly sized to an engine can reach Z boost pressure by half X at the very latest. What this means is that if an engine redlines at 6000rpm and is supercharged at 6psi (a common figure), the engine is receiving 6psi boost only at 6000rpm. At 3000rpm the engine will receive induction air at only 3psi, and at 3500rpm would have 3.5psi boost. On an engine with a 6000rpm redline, a modern correctly sized turbo on the other hand will be at full 6psi boost by 3500rpm, which translates to greater torque from the increased boost and hence greater power at 3500rpm than the supercharged engine would have at 3500rpm from only 3.5psi, or just above half boost.
as i said you reached peak tourque at 3000 rpm, does not mean you are at peak boost pressure.
uh.... Again... the meters and everything monitoring my manifold pressure read 8PSI of manifold pressure at under 3K RPM. Are you saying I will get more PSI at 6K? And even more at 8K? Because if that was the case than I must be boosting over 13PSI because the computer and electronics read 8PSI (PRESSURE) at under 3K but your saying more pressure at higher RPM's so that means at 8K RPMs I must be overboosting?
Wicked1:
Because of the direct drive nature of a supercharger, flow and pressure generated by the supercharger increases in direct proportion to crank and hence engine revolutions. If an engine redlines at X rpm, the maximum boost (Z) that the engine will tolerate will also be set to coincide with X rpm, so that you are neither losing performance or damaging the engine. This means that at half X rpm, boost pressure from the supercharger will also be half Z of the total available. This is a disadvantage compared to a turbocharger as a modern turbo correctly sized to an engine can reach Z boost pressure by half X at the very latest. What this means is that if an engine redlines at 6000rpm and is supercharged at 6psi (a common figure), the engine is receiving 6psi boost only at 6000rpm. At 3000rpm the engine will receive induction air at only 3psi, and at 3500rpm would have 3.5psi boost. On an engine with a 6000rpm redline, a modern correctly sized turbo on the other hand will be at full 6psi boost by 3500rpm, which translates to greater torque from the increased boost and hence greater power at 3500rpm than the supercharged engine would have at 3500rpm from only 3.5psi, or just above half boost.
12-26-2002, 08:23 PM
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Originally posted by S12 driver
Hi, let me try to explain why Wicked4u2c made full boost at 2500 rpm. As he stated before, his supercharger was basicly blowing hot air (180 F) at WOT. The hotter the air gets, the less dense they are, when the engine is at 2500 rpm, the air temp is much lower then 180 F, thus more dense, the superchager can move more air into the engine. But at 8000 rpm, the air is so hot, its very sparse. thats why his car did not boost any higher even when the supercharger spun faster.
Hi, let me try to explain why Wicked4u2c made full boost at 2500 rpm. As he stated before, his supercharger was basicly blowing hot air (180 F) at WOT. The hotter the air gets, the less dense they are, when the engine is at 2500 rpm, the air temp is much lower then 180 F, thus more dense, the superchager can move more air into the engine. But at 8000 rpm, the air is so hot, its very sparse. thats why his car did not boost any higher even when the supercharger spun faster.
12-26-2002, 08:41 PM
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I guess this argument is on going, here's a few of threads that you might be interested in reading.
Club3G discussion, pretty thorough...
http://www.eclipseforums.org/showthr...s+supercharger
Threads attached in the discussion above...
http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/tech/0107scc_garage/
http://www.to4r.com/techturbovssuper.html
http://www.prolexperformance.com/nav...act_sheet.html
Club3G discussion, pretty thorough...
http://www.eclipseforums.org/showthr...s+supercharger
Threads attached in the discussion above...
http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/tech/0107scc_garage/
http://www.to4r.com/techturbovssuper.html
http://www.prolexperformance.com/nav...act_sheet.html
12-27-2002, 10:16 AM
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tim_n/a, a blow off valve does not determine how much boost stays in, thats what a popoff valve/wastegate is for............
franklinz
i reccommend howstuffworks.com
franklinz
i reccommend howstuffworks.com
12-27-2002, 12:25 PM
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Originally posted by tim_n/a
You are confused. Blow off valve can stop turbo boost too high, but can it shorten the time for turbo to slow down?
For instance, you set the boost limit at 16psi, I know blow off valve can protect engine from getting a pressure beyond it. But I didn't know it will, for say, help you lower the boost from 16psi to 7psi.
You are confused. Blow off valve can stop turbo boost too high, but can it shorten the time for turbo to slow down?
For instance, you set the boost limit at 16psi, I know blow off valve can protect engine from getting a pressure beyond it. But I didn't know it will, for say, help you lower the boost from 16psi to 7psi.
Also, I think depending on how you tune your vehicle, a turbo vehicle's output COULD be tuned to be more linear then its N/A counterpart. For example, my car with the aem ems could alter boost pressure through different part of the powerband. It will be possible to lower boost at some point and lift boost at other point to make the output as smooth and linear as possible. But then that would suck to limit the power an engine could create.
The whole fun part of driving a modified vehicle is to find the sweet spot of its powerband and try as hard as you can to always stay in it. Thats why cars with better gear ratio (to stay within the optimal power band) can always be faster... well kinda.
12-30-2002, 01:30 PM
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FYI, Greddy TT kit
This article is from http://g35driver.com
In my opinion, this is a pretty good turbo setup for 350. Check out their HP number, if you are expecting 500whp, I think you will be disappointed. Yet it may alreay out done supercharger by 40hp. There is no estimated cost but I will say it's likely $7000+ for 2 set of turbos, manifolds, wastegates; 6 injectors and intercooler. And that's just my estimate for their basic kit.
==============================
Looks like Greddy is deleloping a kit for the Z and G35
When people talk about about the top tuners in the industry there are many that come to mind, but only a few that stand at the top. GReddy is not only one of those top tuners, but quite arguably the best. GReddy has provided the industry with high quality products that have proven their selfs time and time again, not only making power but meeting the needs of racers and enthusiast a like. So naturally, when we heard about GReddys prototype 350Z we just had to check it out!
.....GReddy has spent countless hours of R&D time working with their new 350Z and has developed a car worth drooling over, by combining some potent products that are making some impressive numbers. Here is their current set up:
2003 Nissan 350Z (Track model)
Color: Daytona Blue
Stock Dyno HP of 260 (peak)
With GReddy Modifications: Currently 345HP (peak) though the factory Catalytic Converters at 0.4kg/cm2 of boost
(They are still tuning in low speed derivability now) (Future Plans are to boost up further hopefully hitting over the 400hp mark)
If all goes well in the tuning, they would like to produce a production twin turbo kit for the 350Z and maybe the G35s.
GReddy:
Prototype Twin Turbo Kit with:
-Twin GReddy/Mitsubishi TD05H-18G Turbochargers
-Twin External Type S Wastegates
-One off Stainless Steel Turbo manifolds
-Twin Airinx AY-SB open element air-filters
-Prototype Front-mounted Intercooler
-3 Row Type 23 (H292 x W600 x D115mm)
-Dual inlets end-tanks to a large 80mm single outlet entank.
Engine Control:
-e-manage (piggy-back ECU)
-PRofec e-01 electronic boost controller and e-manage programmer
-Full Auto Turbo Timer
Exhaust :
-Prototype Full Dual Evolution Cat-back exhaust system (dual 60mm)
Brakes:
-GREX/ Alcon 6pot Calipers with slotted 360mm rotors (light-weight)
Others:
Injectors:
-RC Engineering 440cc Injectors
Suspension:
-Tein HA Coil-over suspension kit
-Tein EDFC damper controller
Wheels:
-Volk Racing GT-C Gun-metal F 19 x 8.5, R 19x9.5
Tires:
-Nitto 555R F 235/35/ZR19, R275/30/ZR19
With their busy schedules we got a chance to squeeze in a quick interview:
Club350: Mike thanks for taking the time to answer a few questions that I’m sure our readers would like to know.
GReddy: No problem.
Club350: What would you say is Estimated HP of the car (Current) ?
GReddy: Right now power is at 345hp @ .4kg/cm2 (though the factory Catalytic Converters) Stock was about 260hp
Club350: 85 hp gain, that’s pretty good. What would you say is the estimated hp after tuning?
GReddy: TBA maybe 400hp on our test vehicle (but 340-350 for a base kit).
Club350: 400hp in the Z would be sweet. What do you believe is the max potential for the stock block (HP)?
GReddy: Hard to say at this time. We're still testing to see.
Club350: Describe the difference in driving over stock?
GReddy: You can definitely can feel the added boost in seat while driving. Very noticeable difference in power.
Club350: I heard the install is difficult due to lack of space. Is it?
GReddy: Currently we are work with a prototype, which was pretty tight, but it is still too early to say how a production kit may be, we may end up using actuator style turbos.
Club350: What is involved in the kit?
GReddy: TBA, currently in addition to the basics like the manifolds, turbos, air intake, intercooler and piping, there are larger injectors, and our e-manage piggy back ECU.
Club350: What do you believe the estimated 1/4 mile times will be?
GReddy: That is very dependent on suspension, wheels and tire set-up. But you figure there is an additional 85hp.
Club350: That’s true it is very dependent on a lot of other factors besides power. Will there need to be a tranny upgrade (ex clutch, or shift kit for auto)?
GReddy: Currently it is for manual transmission only. So far our clutch and transmission is holding up fine.
Club350: I know all the CA drivers want to know this, but will your kit be carb legal in all 50 states?
GReddy: Again it too early to say, but we would like the kit CARB exempt. We are trying to work with all factory emission hardware. It really depends on further testing and tuning.
Club350: What do you believe the Estimated Price range?
GReddy: Its way to early to say. That would really depend on final parts, and total R&D time.
Club350: On a scale of 1-10 with 10 being the highest what is the chances of the kit being offered to the Z community?
GReddy: Right now I would say 7
In my opinion, this is a pretty good turbo setup for 350. Check out their HP number, if you are expecting 500whp, I think you will be disappointed. Yet it may alreay out done supercharger by 40hp. There is no estimated cost but I will say it's likely $7000+ for 2 set of turbos, manifolds, wastegates; 6 injectors and intercooler. And that's just my estimate for their basic kit.
==============================
Looks like Greddy is deleloping a kit for the Z and G35
When people talk about about the top tuners in the industry there are many that come to mind, but only a few that stand at the top. GReddy is not only one of those top tuners, but quite arguably the best. GReddy has provided the industry with high quality products that have proven their selfs time and time again, not only making power but meeting the needs of racers and enthusiast a like. So naturally, when we heard about GReddys prototype 350Z we just had to check it out!
.....GReddy has spent countless hours of R&D time working with their new 350Z and has developed a car worth drooling over, by combining some potent products that are making some impressive numbers. Here is their current set up:
2003 Nissan 350Z (Track model)
Color: Daytona Blue
Stock Dyno HP of 260 (peak)
With GReddy Modifications: Currently 345HP (peak) though the factory Catalytic Converters at 0.4kg/cm2 of boost
(They are still tuning in low speed derivability now) (Future Plans are to boost up further hopefully hitting over the 400hp mark)
If all goes well in the tuning, they would like to produce a production twin turbo kit for the 350Z and maybe the G35s.
GReddy:
Prototype Twin Turbo Kit with:
-Twin GReddy/Mitsubishi TD05H-18G Turbochargers
-Twin External Type S Wastegates
-One off Stainless Steel Turbo manifolds
-Twin Airinx AY-SB open element air-filters
-Prototype Front-mounted Intercooler
-3 Row Type 23 (H292 x W600 x D115mm)
-Dual inlets end-tanks to a large 80mm single outlet entank.
Engine Control:
-e-manage (piggy-back ECU)
-PRofec e-01 electronic boost controller and e-manage programmer
-Full Auto Turbo Timer
Exhaust :
-Prototype Full Dual Evolution Cat-back exhaust system (dual 60mm)
Brakes:
-GREX/ Alcon 6pot Calipers with slotted 360mm rotors (light-weight)
Others:
Injectors:
-RC Engineering 440cc Injectors
Suspension:
-Tein HA Coil-over suspension kit
-Tein EDFC damper controller
Wheels:
-Volk Racing GT-C Gun-metal F 19 x 8.5, R 19x9.5
Tires:
-Nitto 555R F 235/35/ZR19, R275/30/ZR19
With their busy schedules we got a chance to squeeze in a quick interview:
Club350: Mike thanks for taking the time to answer a few questions that I’m sure our readers would like to know.
GReddy: No problem.
Club350: What would you say is Estimated HP of the car (Current) ?
GReddy: Right now power is at 345hp @ .4kg/cm2 (though the factory Catalytic Converters) Stock was about 260hp
Club350: 85 hp gain, that’s pretty good. What would you say is the estimated hp after tuning?
GReddy: TBA maybe 400hp on our test vehicle (but 340-350 for a base kit).
Club350: 400hp in the Z would be sweet. What do you believe is the max potential for the stock block (HP)?
GReddy: Hard to say at this time. We're still testing to see.
Club350: Describe the difference in driving over stock?
GReddy: You can definitely can feel the added boost in seat while driving. Very noticeable difference in power.
Club350: I heard the install is difficult due to lack of space. Is it?
GReddy: Currently we are work with a prototype, which was pretty tight, but it is still too early to say how a production kit may be, we may end up using actuator style turbos.
Club350: What is involved in the kit?
GReddy: TBA, currently in addition to the basics like the manifolds, turbos, air intake, intercooler and piping, there are larger injectors, and our e-manage piggy back ECU.
Club350: What do you believe the estimated 1/4 mile times will be?
GReddy: That is very dependent on suspension, wheels and tire set-up. But you figure there is an additional 85hp.
Club350: That’s true it is very dependent on a lot of other factors besides power. Will there need to be a tranny upgrade (ex clutch, or shift kit for auto)?
GReddy: Currently it is for manual transmission only. So far our clutch and transmission is holding up fine.
Club350: I know all the CA drivers want to know this, but will your kit be carb legal in all 50 states?
GReddy: Again it too early to say, but we would like the kit CARB exempt. We are trying to work with all factory emission hardware. It really depends on further testing and tuning.
Club350: What do you believe the Estimated Price range?
GReddy: Its way to early to say. That would really depend on final parts, and total R&D time.
Club350: On a scale of 1-10 with 10 being the highest what is the chances of the kit being offered to the Z community?
GReddy: Right now I would say 7
12-30-2002, 10:27 PM
#93
Re: FYI, Greddy TT kit
Originally posted by tim_n/a
This article is from http://g35driver.com
In my opinion, this is a pretty good turbo setup for 350. Check out their HP number, if you are expecting 500whp, I think you will be disappointed. Yet it may alreay out done supercharger by 40hp. There is no estimated cost but I will say it's likely $7000+ for 2 set of turbos, manifolds, wastegates; 6 injectors and intercooler. And that's just my estimate for their basic kit.
GReddy: Again it too early to say, but we would like the kit CARB exempt. We are trying to work with all factory emission hardware. It really depends on further testing and tuning.
This article is from http://g35driver.com
In my opinion, this is a pretty good turbo setup for 350. Check out their HP number, if you are expecting 500whp, I think you will be disappointed. Yet it may alreay out done supercharger by 40hp. There is no estimated cost but I will say it's likely $7000+ for 2 set of turbos, manifolds, wastegates; 6 injectors and intercooler. And that's just my estimate for their basic kit.
GReddy: Again it too early to say, but we would like the kit CARB exempt. We are trying to work with all factory emission hardware. It really depends on further testing and tuning.
there ya go....they're trying to keep it carb legal
but i think there will be other kits put out that wont be carb legal that can push the numbers.
12-31-2002, 03:39 AM
#94
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Re: turbo vs SC
[QUOTE]Originally posted by tim_n/a
[Sorry to say that. Just go observe auto-X community, turbo is never a favor choice.
thats right.....just check out the #....NA all the way.....
http://www.speedventures.net/event_r...esults=OA&s=lt
http://www.speedventures.net/event_r...esults=OA&s=lt
http://www.speedventures.net/event_r...esults=OA&s=lt
http://www.speedventures.net/event_r...esults=OA&s=lt
[Sorry to say that. Just go observe auto-X community, turbo is never a favor choice.
thats right.....just check out the #....NA all the way.....
http://www.speedventures.net/event_r...esults=OA&s=lt
http://www.speedventures.net/event_r...esults=OA&s=lt
http://www.speedventures.net/event_r...esults=OA&s=lt
http://www.speedventures.net/event_r...esults=OA&s=lt
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