Our theory on stock rod failure...
06-01-2006, 07:53 PM
#141
Originally Posted by Oleg
Thank you for intervention, but it was not me blowing my motor up (thank god). I would be really pissed if that happened.
I just made a comment that having this much $$ reserved for a FI Z project is ridiculous considering other options available on the market with other cars (unless you truly are a die-hard 350Z fanatic)... I have also expressed my gladness that this information became available BEFORE I made the mistake of sinking over 9 grand into the Z, while still being another 10 grand away from finishing the project (not counting a built motor) and possibly end up with a blown engine.
This did not offend anyone, except for mr. Taurran, who apparently believes that a Z with a TN ST is the mankind's crowning achievement.
I just made a comment that having this much $$ reserved for a FI Z project is ridiculous considering other options available on the market with other cars (unless you truly are a die-hard 350Z fanatic)... I have also expressed my gladness that this information became available BEFORE I made the mistake of sinking over 9 grand into the Z, while still being another 10 grand away from finishing the project (not counting a built motor) and possibly end up with a blown engine.
This did not offend anyone, except for mr. Taurran, who apparently believes that a Z with a TN ST is the mankind's crowning achievement.
06-01-2006, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Oleg
This did not offend anyone, except for mr. Taurran, who apparently believes that a Z with a TN ST is the mankind's crowning achievement.
For all that good looks of the Z and the power potential of the VQ35DE (once buckefulls of $$ are applied), it is still an underengineered POS as opposed to the 2JZ.
So please, do us all a favor and drag your knuckles over to another forum and discuss your own idea of superior engineering.
06-02-2006, 04:29 AM
#143
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Guys, behave now...
To get back on topic, We recently reinspected the head gaskets and block as well as the heads and could fing no signs of detonation or for that matter any leakeage of the head gasket..In theory, water or liquid in the cylinder would creat such a condition as to bend a rod, stock or non stock..However after further inspection of the rods,bearings,headgasket and components, we feel the case was simply a weak rod being asked to perform well over 200% of its engineered duty cycle..One thing I am curious to see, is the build date and production run of all the motors that blew up in similar fashion.I am willing to bet they all are similar in dates, and may have all shared rods from the same casting.This of course is theory, but would explain why some people are getting over 30,000 problem free miles on a turbo kit and some are getting 3 miles on a turbo kit.
The intention of theis thread was not to scare anyone off from going F/I but simply to inform potential F/I owners of the inherent risks involved and help them make an eductated choice when spending their hard earned $$$$.
There are 3 analogies I like to adhere to in life.
1)Murphy's Law: if something can go wrong it will..
2)Prepare for the worst and hope for the best..
3)there is no such thing as a perfect woman....
Follow these 3 analogies in life and you will come out smelling like roses..or something else.
F/I on the Z is very fun, and being one of the pioneers on this forum we pride ourselves in trying new things and pushing the envelope..We feel that with a good tune and moderate timing and proper equipment the VQ can be boosted somewhat safely and reliably.However, whenever you double the output of a motor there are certain risks you are taking, just understand them before you get involved in the project, and have a "plan B"
As for Oleg: Do I think you buying Supra is going to solve your woes, absolutely not..Those cars have their own set of problems to deal with and are just as expensive to obtain and mod,simply because theiy are no longer produced and the seller pretty much calls his price,especially for a clean one...So buying a $30,000 used 16 year old car and spending another $20,000 on it, is NOT my idea of the right thing to do..But whatever floats your boat,perhaps you will come to your sences some day...
To get back on topic, We recently reinspected the head gaskets and block as well as the heads and could fing no signs of detonation or for that matter any leakeage of the head gasket..In theory, water or liquid in the cylinder would creat such a condition as to bend a rod, stock or non stock..However after further inspection of the rods,bearings,headgasket and components, we feel the case was simply a weak rod being asked to perform well over 200% of its engineered duty cycle..One thing I am curious to see, is the build date and production run of all the motors that blew up in similar fashion.I am willing to bet they all are similar in dates, and may have all shared rods from the same casting.This of course is theory, but would explain why some people are getting over 30,000 problem free miles on a turbo kit and some are getting 3 miles on a turbo kit.
The intention of theis thread was not to scare anyone off from going F/I but simply to inform potential F/I owners of the inherent risks involved and help them make an eductated choice when spending their hard earned $$$$.
There are 3 analogies I like to adhere to in life.
1)Murphy's Law: if something can go wrong it will..
2)Prepare for the worst and hope for the best..
3)there is no such thing as a perfect woman....
Follow these 3 analogies in life and you will come out smelling like roses..or something else.
F/I on the Z is very fun, and being one of the pioneers on this forum we pride ourselves in trying new things and pushing the envelope..We feel that with a good tune and moderate timing and proper equipment the VQ can be boosted somewhat safely and reliably.However, whenever you double the output of a motor there are certain risks you are taking, just understand them before you get involved in the project, and have a "plan B"
As for Oleg: Do I think you buying Supra is going to solve your woes, absolutely not..Those cars have their own set of problems to deal with and are just as expensive to obtain and mod,simply because theiy are no longer produced and the seller pretty much calls his price,especially for a clean one...So buying a $30,000 used 16 year old car and spending another $20,000 on it, is NOT my idea of the right thing to do..But whatever floats your boat,perhaps you will come to your sences some day...
06-02-2006, 08:16 AM
#144
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Originally Posted by MRC Motorsports
One thing I am curious to see, is the build date and production run of all the motors that blew up in similar fashion.I am willing to bet they all are similar in dates, and may have all shared rods from the same casting.This of course is theory, but would explain why some people are getting over 30,000 problem free miles on a turbo kit and some are getting 3 miles on a turbo kit.
06-02-2006, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by taurran
It was you who came to these forums with an ignorant statement like that. It's obvious it was meant to troll up an argument. Of course its underengineered to handle boost, compared to a FACTORY TURBOCHARGED MOTOR. You only show your ignorance by bothering to compare the two factory motors, as both serve their purpose extremely well.
So please, do us all a favor and drag your knuckles over to another forum and discuss your own idea of superior engineering.
So please, do us all a favor and drag your knuckles over to another forum and discuss your own idea of superior engineering.
Great, now I am a troll...
You do realize that if you kept your mouth shut (or rather your hands free) after my post about what is inadequate in the VQ motor as opposed to a 2JZ this would not have turned into an extra page of useless bickering.
For the record, I was not starting up an argument, but as MRC can confirm, I was on the fence about buying an APS TT from him. As I came to know that I would be driving with a motor that can let go at any second (despite all the claims that diiferent companies make about "100% blot on" kits they are hawking), I don't wish to touch the car with a ten foot pole when it comes to further mods. So you can imagine a level of frustrations as over a year of anticipation goes to waste. I did not mean this as argument starter and apologize to everyone who took it as offensive (if there is anyone alse, besides Taurran).
I also would like to thank MRC for sharing this info, despite the fact that it would deter some from going FI. This is definately a sign of great ethics. I would not bring my car anywhere else.
Now to my dear friend Taurran:
Let's assume for the sake of argument that I have indeed tried to "troll up an argument", as you have put it so eloquently. Now, my old son, what is the cardinal rule in fighting trolls? DO NOT FEED THEM! What does it make you now?
Anyway, this is my last post in this discussion. Lets see if you can stay quiet.
Last edited by Oleg; 06-02-2006 at 12:41 PM.
06-02-2006, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Oleg
For the record, I was not starting up an argument, but as MRC can confirm, I was on the fence about buying an APS TT from him. As I came to know that I would be driving with a motor that can let go at any second (despite all the claims that diiferent companies make about "100% blot on" kits they are hawking), I don't wish to touch the car with a ten foot pole when it comes to further mods. So you can imagine a level of frustrations as over a year of anticipation goes to waste.
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It's always possible to tune the engine to a higher or lower power level, at APS we custom dyno tune every engine we'd never allow a stock TT engine to leave with over 380 whp. As I said previously, if the owner/tuner decide to tune for higher whp power then you have to accept the possibibility of a rod/piston failure, that's life with over 400 + whp with a VQ engine.
As I said previously, we at APS have twin turbocharged 42 Z cars (all produce around 370 to 380 whp on our dyno dynamics load based dyno, a genuine power gain of approx 165 whp over stock and to date we've never had a single engine problem, if you play hard with the stock engine (over 400 whp) there is going to be a number of engines that fail con rods/pistons imho
Peter
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06-02-2006, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by MRC Motorsports
As for Oleg: Do I think you buying Supra is going to solve your woes, absolutely not..Those cars have their own set of problems to deal with and are just as expensive to obtain and mod,simply because theiy are no longer produced and the seller pretty much calls his price,especially for a clean one...So buying a $30,000 used 16 year old car and spending another $20,000 on it, is NOT my idea of the right thing to do..But whatever floats your boat,perhaps you will come to your sences some day...
I most likely will end up getting a RWD car with an LS1 swap from these guys:
http://www.hinsonsupercars.com (one of they turn-key packages)
If I can find a decent FD, good, if not, I'll have to settle for a clean S14. In theory a powertrain from a stock C5 Z06 in a 2800lb car would yeild a better power/weight ratio then any FI Z operating within "safe limits" of the stock block. And since it will still be a stock motor, although in a different body, I can pound it like there is no tomorrow, and there will be nothing to worry about, even for someone as paranoid as I am.
What do you think if this idea?
06-02-2006, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by BrianLG35C
Oleg, from the horses mouth, APS says to now to keep the power levels at no more than 380whp and you'll be fine...
APS
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It's always possible to tune the engine to a higher or lower power level, at APS we custom dyno tune every engine we'd never allow a stock TT engine to leave with over 380 whp. As I said previously, if the owner/tuner decide to tune for higher whp power then you have to accept the possibibility of a rod/piston failure, that's life with over 400 + whp with a VQ engine.
As I said previously, we at APS have twin turbocharged 42 Z cars (all produce around 370 to 380 whp on our dyno dynamics load based dyno, a genuine power gain of approx 165 whp over stock and to date we've never had a single engine problem, if you play hard with the stock engine (over 400 whp) there is going to be a number of engines that fail con rods/pistons imho
Peter
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APS
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It's always possible to tune the engine to a higher or lower power level, at APS we custom dyno tune every engine we'd never allow a stock TT engine to leave with over 380 whp. As I said previously, if the owner/tuner decide to tune for higher whp power then you have to accept the possibibility of a rod/piston failure, that's life with over 400 + whp with a VQ engine.
As I said previously, we at APS have twin turbocharged 42 Z cars (all produce around 370 to 380 whp on our dyno dynamics load based dyno, a genuine power gain of approx 165 whp over stock and to date we've never had a single engine problem, if you play hard with the stock engine (over 400 whp) there is going to be a number of engines that fail con rods/pistons imho
Peter
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06-02-2006, 12:57 PM
#149
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Originally Posted by Oleg
I saw that one. But how does this explain what happened in that MRC's car?
06-02-2006, 01:03 PM
#150
Originally Posted by Oleg
Already checked on prices for Supras, HOLY CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!
I most likely will end up getting a RWD car with an LS1 swap from these guys:
http://www.hinsonsupercars.com (one of they turn-key packages)
If I can find a decent FD, good, if not, I'll have to settle for a clean S14. In theory a powertrain from a stock C5 Z06 in a 2800lb car would yeild a better power/weight ratio then any FI Z operating within "safe limits" of the stock block. And since it will still be a stock motor, although in a different body, I can pound it like there is no tomorrow, and there will be nothing to worry about, even for someone as paranoid as I am.
What do you think if this idea?
I most likely will end up getting a RWD car with an LS1 swap from these guys:
http://www.hinsonsupercars.com (one of they turn-key packages)
If I can find a decent FD, good, if not, I'll have to settle for a clean S14. In theory a powertrain from a stock C5 Z06 in a 2800lb car would yeild a better power/weight ratio then any FI Z operating within "safe limits" of the stock block. And since it will still be a stock motor, although in a different body, I can pound it like there is no tomorrow, and there will be nothing to worry about, even for someone as paranoid as I am.
What do you think if this idea?
06-02-2006, 01:15 PM
#151
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Originally Posted by Oleg
Having an awesome handling car that can run low 12's easy N/A (no chance of blowing the motor)-priceless.
P.S. I am still glad that I learned all the stuff about modifying cars on these forums. But as soon as the lease on my daily driver is over, I am trading my Z in for an FJ Cruiser (new DD) and next spring I am starting the FD LS1 project.
06-02-2006, 01:16 PM
#152
Oleg, you have been torturing yourself over the past 12 months. The chances of engine failure are very remote, when properly tuned. Personally, I dont believe in any of the out of the box tunes. There are hundreds and hundreds of people driving around with FI on stock motors. Unfortunatley, the only thing we hear about on the boards, are the blow ups.
If you are looking for 100% certainty, then don't mod your car. But the water is just fine over here..in the FI world.
If you are looking for 100% certainty, then don't mod your car. But the water is just fine over here..in the FI world.
06-02-2006, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by doug
how about just keeping your Z and building the motor when you go FI
TT convesion with labor: 9000$
Built shortblock reserve: 6000$
Upgraded VB w/labor: 1200$
Exhaust/test pipes/intake manifold/labor: 2000$
Extra engine monitoring devises: 1000-1500$
Suspension mods: 1000-2000$
Other miscellaneous stuff (coolers, etc)
(I already have upgraded my brakes and wheels)
So all in all, we are talking bout 15,000 worth of parts and labor to get to safe 400 whp with a 5AT.
I can get a decent condition LSx RX7 for less the 25K easy (at least according to the guys at Hinson). The FD always was and always will be one of the best handling japanese imports...
To be honest, I bought the Z b/c I thought I would not need to change anything. Once I killed my front brakes and replaced them with a Brembo BBK, I caught the mod bug.
If I knew then what I know now, I would have never bought a 350Z. I would get something else that is a good performer and has a long history of aftermarket support.
06-02-2006, 01:18 PM
#154
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Originally Posted by Sharif@Forged
Oleg, you have been torturing yourself over the past 12 months. The chances of engine failure are very remote, when properly tuned. Personally, I dont believe in any of the out of the box tunes. There are hundreds and hundreds of people driving around with FI on stock motors. Unfortunatley, the only thing we here about on the board are the blow ups.
If you are looking for 100% certainty, then don't mod your car. But the water is just fine over here..in the FI world.
If you are looking for 100% certainty, then don't mod your car. But the water is just fine over here..in the FI world.
I can +1 that a thousand times. Myself and the VAST majority of people that I know with FI on a 350Z have had ZERO issues. I actually only personally know one Z/G owner that has blown up a stock motor.
You'll see it posted on the boards..but for every 1 blown motor there are over 100 that are perfectly fine.
06-02-2006, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by BrianLG35C
It doesn't but I was only offering some info. to help with your decision on going FI. Your welcome.
Sorry, if you took it the wrong way. I appreciate the help, but I got an ipression from this thread that any boost has a chance to kill the VQ.
06-02-2006, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by BriGuyMax
I run with a bunch of LS1 guys...and a number of them have blown up their motors N/A....one of them went through TWO LS1s in 2 years with just exhaust on his C5 vette. He's crazy about maitenence and babied the car to all hell and it still blew up. Not saying that ever LS1 is going to blow up, or even that most do...but you can't say it has ZERO chance of blowing up.
Enjoy buring oil!!!
Enjoy buring oil!!!
06-02-2006, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Oleg
Great, now I am a troll...
You do realize that if you kept your mouth shut (or rather your hands free) after my post about what is inadequate in the VQ motor as opposed to a 2JZ this would not have turned into an extra page of useless bickering.
For the record, I was not starting up an argument, but as MRC can confirm, I was on the fence about buying an APS TT from him. As I came to know that I would be driving with a motor that can let go at any second (despite all the claims that diiferent companies make about "100% blot on" kits they are hawking), I don't wish to touch the car with a ten foot pole when it comes to further mods. So you can imagine a level of frustrations as over a year of anticipation goes to waste. I did not mean this as argument starter and apologize to everyone who took it as offensive (if there is anyone alse, besides Taurran).
I also would like to thank MRC for sharing this info, despite the fact that it would deter some from going FI. This is definately a sign of great ethics. I would not bring my car anywhere else.
Now to my dear friend Taurran:
Let's assume for the sake of argument that I have indeed tried to "troll up an argument", as you have put it so eloquently. Now, my old son, what is the cardinal rule in fighting trolls? DO NOT FEED THEM! What does it make you now?
Anyway, this is my last post in this discussion. Lets see if you can stay quiet.
You do realize that if you kept your mouth shut (or rather your hands free) after my post about what is inadequate in the VQ motor as opposed to a 2JZ this would not have turned into an extra page of useless bickering.
For the record, I was not starting up an argument, but as MRC can confirm, I was on the fence about buying an APS TT from him. As I came to know that I would be driving with a motor that can let go at any second (despite all the claims that diiferent companies make about "100% blot on" kits they are hawking), I don't wish to touch the car with a ten foot pole when it comes to further mods. So you can imagine a level of frustrations as over a year of anticipation goes to waste. I did not mean this as argument starter and apologize to everyone who took it as offensive (if there is anyone alse, besides Taurran).
I also would like to thank MRC for sharing this info, despite the fact that it would deter some from going FI. This is definately a sign of great ethics. I would not bring my car anywhere else.
Now to my dear friend Taurran:
Let's assume for the sake of argument that I have indeed tried to "troll up an argument", as you have put it so eloquently. Now, my old son, what is the cardinal rule in fighting trolls? DO NOT FEED THEM! What does it make you now?
Anyway, this is my last post in this discussion. Lets see if you can stay quiet.
The fact is that running ANY high horsepower application on a modified car will give the average owner more problems than they care to deal with. Thinking that you can swap a small block v8 in a japanese import, or pumping up the boost on a turbocharged supra with no problems whatsoever is, well, stupid...
Originally Posted by Oleg
Sorry, if you took it the wrong way. I appreciate the help, but I got an ipression from this thread that any boost has a chance to kill the VQ.
With the behaviour I've seen in this thread, I don't think you should consider boosting your vq35 for your own health. I think you'd about have a heart attack or nervous breakdown every time you pressed the gas pedal.
06-02-2006, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Sharif@Forged
Oleg, you have been torturing yourself over the past 12 months. The chances of engine failure are very remote, when properly tuned. Personally, I dont believe in any of the out of the box tunes. There are hundreds and hundreds of people driving around with FI on stock motors. Unfortunatley, the only thing we hear about on the boards, are the blow ups.
If you are looking for 100% certainty, then don't mod your car. But the water is just fine over here..in the FI world.
If you are looking for 100% certainty, then don't mod your car. But the water is just fine over here..in the FI world.
Maybe I should once I get rid of this Z I should start concentrating on my cooking hobby. Safer, less expensive and won't drive me into an insane asylum....
06-02-2006, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by taurran
I don't think you should consider boosting your vq35 for your own health. I think you'd about have a heart attack or nervous breakdown every time you pressed the gas pedal.
Last edited by Oleg; 06-02-2006 at 02:02 PM.