vq35 dyno numbers no adding up
Originally Posted by zemaestro
Greetings. I have been out of the loop so long that I recently decided to get back to the forums and start some trouble. I started building my old z32 race car in 1999. I had multiple transmission issues and after dealing the level 10 (crooks and liars) for the better part of a year, the best I had ran was a 10.79 @ 128. My combination was far from sorted. The car weighed 3250 with me in it (I think). The car sat for atleast 2-3 years before I got it back out and decided to go with a domestic transmission. The car went 10.3's right away and I eventually got it running 10.2's every pass at 133 m.p.h. That particular car dynoed 480 at AAM @ 18-19 lbs of boost. I know that smallish turbos(such as the APS) will not make much more power past that point. I regularly ran 22 p.s.i. and on my last couple of outings I ran 25 p.s.i. and picked up nothing. We all know that trap speed directly indicates horsepower and the VQ numbers are not adding up. Even with a bad launch(lots of wheelspin), trap speeds, for the most part will remain very close. I was making around 600hp at the crank and a touch over 500@ the wheels. I also had a fairly loose converter. My point is a car making over 600hp at the wheels and weighing about 3450 with driver should eclipse 140mph. A car such as VRT's should run close to 145 mph. I know it's all been discussed before. BTW z32 were fast, but noone knew how to drive them. I never once had wheelhop on good tires and my stock turbo/injector car ran 12.0 @116 in like 1995-96. Knowing what I know now, I could easily run 11.7's at the same trap with stock turbo's injectors. I have noticed some people claiming like 400+ to the wheels with like 113 trapspeeds. I don't know if it's the dynos, the drivers or what. I will be buying somebodys already built car and running 9's. Sleeves would be great, stock body preferable, around $30k. Later doods....
What are you smoking Travis
So Matt will be getting out of jail finally HUH?? Damn, how long has that boy been in there.
So you are buying a used 350z for use in Drag racing and that is it? No daily driver?
Good to see your back on the scene.
Later
Todd
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Originally Posted by zemaestro
Greetings. I have been out of the loop so long that I recently decided to get back to the forums and start some trouble. I started building my old z32 race car in 1999. I had multiple transmission issues and after dealing the level 10 (crooks and liars) for the better part of a year, the best I had ran was a 10.79 @ 128. My combination was far from sorted. The car weighed 3250 with me in it (I think). The car sat for atleast 2-3 years before I got it back out and decided to go with a domestic transmission. The car went 10.3's right away and I eventually got it running 10.2's every pass at 133 m.p.h. That particular car dynoed 480 at AAM @ 18-19 lbs of boost. I know that smallish turbos(such as the APS) will not make much more power past that point. I regularly ran 22 p.s.i. and on my last couple of outings I ran 25 p.s.i. and picked up nothing. We all know that trap speed directly indicates horsepower and the VQ numbers are not adding up. Even with a bad launch(lots of wheelspin), trap speeds, for the most part will remain very close. I was making around 600hp at the crank and a touch over 500@ the wheels. I also had a fairly loose converter. My point is a car making over 600hp at the wheels and weighing about 3450 with driver should eclipse 140mph. A car such as VRT's should run close to 145 mph. I know it's all been discussed before. BTW z32 were fast, but noone knew how to drive them. I never once had wheelhop on good tires and my stock turbo/injector car ran 12.0 @116 in like 1995-96. Knowing what I know now, I could easily run 11.7's at the same trap with stock turbo's injectors. I have noticed some people claiming like 400+ to the wheels with like 113 trapspeeds. I don't know if it's the dynos, the drivers or what. I will be buying somebodys already built car and running 9's. Sleeves would be great, stock body preferable, around $30k. Later doods....
Originally Posted by Weqster
I'll answer this question. Over the years, american dyno's have been gradually reading higher and higher. These days the outputs they read are even more then flywheel horsepower, and this is reflected with the MPH's they run at the strip. Glad an american finally noticed this, as the rest of the world has been laughing for years
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Originally Posted by Gman2004
there are a couple of people putting down 600whp to the wheels on an australian dyno (dyno dynamics) yet they still don't trap 140mph. When you are the super power people laugh and hate out of jealousy.
its nothing to be ashmed of. Consumers like big HP numbers. Its just the market demand.
Originally Posted by Weqster
True dyno dynamics are made in Australia, and u bring up a great point. We rang the head office the other day to ask them why american numbers are always so much more then ours. Their reply was along the lines "american dynos are configured to read outputs comparable to other dyno systems thye are used too. As such, there is usually a 20%-25% inflation to keep the market satisfied" So is basically flywheel HP. So when u get talking about dynojects and dynopacks, u are looking at way more then flywheel Hp at the wheels. Go use a 1/4mile/HP calculator and u will realise the figures dont line. That combined with dyno's of stock cars around the world, u will see my point.
its nothing to be ashmed of. Consumers like big HP numbers. Its just the market demand.
its nothing to be ashmed of. Consumers like big HP numbers. Its just the market demand.
wow! 20-25% higher. I know dyno jets usually read higher, but from what I've seen they usually only read 10% higher. What dyno are your referring to when you say 20-25% higher. I want to get on one of those for chits and giggles.....j/k.
Originally Posted by Weqster
True dyno dynamics are made in Australia, and u bring up a great point. We rang the head office the other day to ask them why american numbers are always so much more then ours. Their reply was along the lines "american dynos are configured to read outputs comparable to other dyno systems thye are used too. As such, there is usually a 20%-25% inflation to keep the market satisfied" So is basically flywheel HP. So when u get talking about dynojects and dynopacks, u are looking at way more then flywheel Hp at the wheels. Go use a 1/4mile/HP calculator and u will realise the figures dont line. That combined with dyno's of stock cars around the world, u will see my point.
its nothing to be ashmed of. Consumers like big HP numbers. Its just the market demand.
its nothing to be ashmed of. Consumers like big HP numbers. Its just the market demand.
Our Dyno Dynamics dyno registers road power....no question about that.
287bhp stock engines dyno 220-225whp on our dyno. How is this FLYWHEEL power??
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dont argue with me. i took the time to ring up DD. u should do the same. its not false. do u guys even use shootout mode?
The sums. Another myth propergated by american dynos is that you only loose 15-20% through the drivetrain of a manual car.
Sharrif, u proved my point.
287hp flywheel
225hp US Dyno -~20% loss
200hp AUS Dyno - ~30% loss
Sharrif your dyno may not read flywheel like most other american dyno's. But the fact remains, the numbers are over-infalted. Go quater/mile calcuate and u will see. Our cars run exactly the same times and MPH, yet always read between 10-30% LOWER then american dynos. Yet our numbers corraspond to quater mile MPH and calculations that have been used for years. I have absoultely idea who the opening poster is, but he talks truth. The numbers dont add up one bit!
The sums. Another myth propergated by american dynos is that you only loose 15-20% through the drivetrain of a manual car.
Sharrif, u proved my point.
287hp flywheel
225hp US Dyno -~20% loss
200hp AUS Dyno - ~30% loss
Sharrif your dyno may not read flywheel like most other american dyno's. But the fact remains, the numbers are over-infalted. Go quater/mile calcuate and u will see. Our cars run exactly the same times and MPH, yet always read between 10-30% LOWER then american dynos. Yet our numbers corraspond to quater mile MPH and calculations that have been used for years. I have absoultely idea who the opening poster is, but he talks truth. The numbers dont add up one bit!
Last edited by Weqster; Nov 6, 2006 at 07:37 PM.
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To add the the above post, its so easy to fudge dyno numbers "without being aware" its not funny. Something as simple as different tyre pressure will fudge figures. Thats why dyno dynamics invented shootout mode.. It comes at a price of around 10k ontop of the dyno, but its worth it..
Weqster, I dont want to get into a dyno debate with you. All I know for fact, is that our dyno accurately measures wheel horsepower. Your statement that US dynos are reading flywheel hp is not accuate at all.
And 15-20% drivetrain loss seems pretty reasonable to most people. What is your basis for claiming that drivetrain loss is closer to 30%?
BTW, shootout mode measures FLYWHEEL hp...not whp. I know this, becuase we have shootout mode on our dyno. It locks out correction factors and such, and estimates true flywheel hp. We do not use this mode.
Terry from DD Australia, came to our shop and installed/trained is on our dyno, so I think he knows what he is talking about. He is the VP of sales for DD.
Just curious, but do you own a Dyno Dynamics dyno?
And 15-20% drivetrain loss seems pretty reasonable to most people. What is your basis for claiming that drivetrain loss is closer to 30%?
BTW, shootout mode measures FLYWHEEL hp...not whp. I know this, becuase we have shootout mode on our dyno. It locks out correction factors and such, and estimates true flywheel hp. We do not use this mode.
Terry from DD Australia, came to our shop and installed/trained is on our dyno, so I think he knows what he is talking about. He is the VP of sales for DD.
Just curious, but do you own a Dyno Dynamics dyno?
back up what you write
Originally Posted by Weqster
Sharrif your dyno may not read flywheel like most other american dyno's. But the fact remains, the numbers are over-infalted. Go quater/mile calcuate and u will see. Our cars run exactly the same times and MPH, yet always read between 10-30% LOWER then american dynos. Yet our numbers corraspond to quater mile MPH and calculations that have been used for years. I have absoultely idea who the opening poster is, but he talks truth. The numbers dont add up one bit!
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Originally Posted by Sharif@Forged
Weqster, I dont want to get into a dyno debate with you. All I know for fact, is that our dyno accurately measures wheel horsepower. Your statement that US dynos are reading flywheel hp is not accuate at all.
And 15-20% drivetrain loss seems pretty reasonable to most people. What is your basis for claiming that drivetrain loss is closer to 30%?
BTW, shootout mode measures FLYWHEEL hp...not whp. I know this, becuase we have shootout mode on our dyno. It locks out correction factors and such, and estimates true flywheel hp. We do not use this mode.
Terry from DD Australia, came to our shop and installed/trained is on our dyno, so I think he knows what he is talking about. He is the VP of sales for DD.
Just curious, but do you own a Dyno Dynamics dyno?
And 15-20% drivetrain loss seems pretty reasonable to most people. What is your basis for claiming that drivetrain loss is closer to 30%?
BTW, shootout mode measures FLYWHEEL hp...not whp. I know this, becuase we have shootout mode on our dyno. It locks out correction factors and such, and estimates true flywheel hp. We do not use this mode.
Terry from DD Australia, came to our shop and installed/trained is on our dyno, so I think he knows what he is talking about. He is the VP of sales for DD.
Just curious, but do you own a Dyno Dynamics dyno?
--------------
Here's an email I got from Dyno Dynamics this morning:
---------------------------
.....link from the forum which I read with interest.
First of all ShootOut mode is not just for flywheel power calculation. Although it does a super job of that. Much better than Coast Down.
The prime objective of ShootOut is to create uniformity of readings from all DD dynos. This is done by causing uniformity of dyno settings (this is done by the software selecting the most appropriate drivetrain inertia and ramp rate for the class of vehicle being tested). The rest is acheived by training our customers (eg. you) in the correct methods of tie down, tire pressure, fan positioning, good ventilation neccesities etc, the list goes on. If you set up the car and the dyno the same and the car is repeatable, the readings will be repeatable, world wide!
One of the members doubted the reality of our readings, because our atmospherics are entered manually. That is why ShootOut prints these manual inputs on the dyno graph. If the operator enters figures that are "slightly" inaccurate, the power variations will be extremely minimal. If howeverthe operator inputs unrealistic figures large enough to significantly effect the power readings, then this will be obvious to anyone who studies the graph.
The principal of ShootOut is to ensure that there is no difference between your dyno, Dyno-Comps dyno, Axis's dyno, or any other Dyno Dynamics dyno run correctly in ShootOut mode.
There will always be some small variations in readings because of the difference in locations therfore conditions that can effect the way the engine management system behaves and it turn the turbocharger system behaves (their behaviour is inherintly linked). No dyno can automatically compensate for this.
-------------
A good explanation of shootout can be found here at the bottom:
http://www.xspeed.com.au/tech_features.php?tech_id=19
An Sharif, i know none of ur dyno prinouts feature the shootout mode logo.
http://weq.hondatech.com.au/turbo/dyno.jpg - back in 04. yes, we have been using DD dynos for MANY years now.
DO i own a dyno? No. Im not going to lie to you. My tuner does though. He has been tuning for 12years and used various models of dyno's (jet/pac etc.) and is ShootOut Accredited. He holds all the FWD drag racing records in Australia. He works closely with US companys (skunk2/rocket) to continuely improve and learn. One thing that he consistantly came across was anomilies in power readings for different components and different mph times between when tested oversea's and when he tested them on his dyno. Even though dyno dnyamics dyno's were used here and abroad, the power was never consistant. Apon calling DD up, he was told dyno's were configured differently for different 'market expectations' but all dyno's within the market should read consistantly in ShootOut mode.
Now this is what really gets under my collar. ShootOut mode is basically an advanced 'Correction' calculator. You must be trained. U must be accredited You must have integrity because even shootout can be fudged. American's NEVER, and i mean NEVER, care about corrected numbers because they are ALWAYS LOWER then uncorrected. How many signatures around hear list uncorrected numbers. These numbers are f*cking useless because they show the power output that car made that day under a certain condition. They are not comparable, for even a single second. They are not comparable even across cars on the same dyno, the same day. So many factors go into chassis power outputs, this includes tyre pressure which varies to do with temp.
Obviously ShootOut mode has not become popular in the US yet. THis 'king of all heart breaker' mode would really clean up the industry, like it has done in Australia. It was introduced about 5 years ago.
Its funny that u are quetioning me Sharif, after all the comparision threads you have made between dynojet and DD.
Percentages make all the difference. I know i have talked in round abouts, but 15% drivetrain loss is NOT acceptable for a chassis dynometer. Google physics and concepts and u will understand. What gets me more is AWD looses around 40% these days with all technology in diffs and gearbox's. Still, AWD dynos from america are consistantly around the 20% mark in power loss. This is just in-comphrendable.
I claim US dyno's read in flywheel HP because they constantly read 10-20% above AUS dynos. This means that the drivetrain loss is not being taken into account. Ob course this is not blanket, i am sure some dyno's over there kinda get close to the mark (because of all the reasons i mentioned above). ANother thing is our DD dyno's usually get serviced once a month. The technician comes out and make sure the dyno is operating correctly and meeting all baseline requirements.
<rant>
It was a good rant, indeed!
But honestly, I think the miscommunication, was simply your comment that USA dynos are showing flywheel hp....which I still maintain is not true. Granted, some USA dyno operators might try to inflate their numbers. We don't, and this is the reason our numbers are much lower than typical DynoJet or DynoPak numbers. This is the correct way to operate a dyno, IMHO....rather than trying to emulate a certain dyno. We spent $50K on our dyno setup...the best one currently on the market...so I tend to get a bit defensive when people try to undermine our proven results.
Our DD dyno has been proven, and demonstarted to ready consistently lower than a Dynojet 248. And our numbers are nowhere near flywheel numbers.
When I enter my HP numbers into a 1/4 calculator, they are very close to accurate. Granted, I suck at drag racing, but the trap speeds are within reason. Also keep in mind, I have seen my trap speeds vary by 4 mph on the same day.
That is the main point I was trying to make. All good.
But honestly, I think the miscommunication, was simply your comment that USA dynos are showing flywheel hp....which I still maintain is not true. Granted, some USA dyno operators might try to inflate their numbers. We don't, and this is the reason our numbers are much lower than typical DynoJet or DynoPak numbers. This is the correct way to operate a dyno, IMHO....rather than trying to emulate a certain dyno. We spent $50K on our dyno setup...the best one currently on the market...so I tend to get a bit defensive when people try to undermine our proven results.
Our DD dyno has been proven, and demonstarted to ready consistently lower than a Dynojet 248. And our numbers are nowhere near flywheel numbers.
When I enter my HP numbers into a 1/4 calculator, they are very close to accurate. Granted, I suck at drag racing, but the trap speeds are within reason. Also keep in mind, I have seen my trap speeds vary by 4 mph on the same day.
That is the main point I was trying to make. All good.
Originally Posted by DynoDynamics
If you set up the car and the dyno the same and the car is repeatable, the readings will be repeatable, world wide!
Im still waiting on your whp to 1/4 claims to prove your ridiculous theory that US dyno's always read lower-Sharif in particular uses no BS corrections. Refer to my original post to further back up your opinion....
I dyno'd on a dynojet, made "371" whp, on a day with horrible conditions and my a/c on. Yet my car ran a 12.5 @114 on street tires, full street trim. So are my numbers inflated? haha
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word
I like Austailian guy, he's a pimp...Like I said, I like stirring up debates, they just develop like a bacterial infection, consuming people from the inside. No seriously, I just wanted to get to the bottom of it all. Shariff, I was wondering what you trap speeds were? I understand that you are the man, but you are only 10 hours away from the wonderful state of Maryland. I do have some family in Marietta, so I will have a place to stay. I am assuming I'm going with the HKS f-con and 1000cc injectors. Moving on, someone mentioned something about jealousy and hate....I am capable of neither. That would require emotion, and sense I am numb to the outside world, this leaves me to believe that I am only motivated by the truth. Trust me I want a car that makes this much power....like 790 flywheel, because it will make going very fast, very easy. Chim-Chim...yes your numbers, 371 rwhp and 114 sound great, you should be able to run 11's. Word, homie....Shariff what is your opinion on the most radical, semi-off the shelf performance......td06, with 20g or 60-1 upgrades, SFR stuff concerns me and they don't have much backing them up, plus I'm sure their manifolds will crack and the fit/finish of their kits, leave alot to be desired. And then there is this APS extreme, what turbos are they using, I can't find the specs anywhere....What exactly do I have to do to get banned from this forum, as my good bud TODD has warned me, Thanks Toddy
