Have been emailing Avalon Racing about the SC and Hood, here's what he said. Also, when I asked him about NOS vs SC he said,
"Yes – NOS is an engine killer – bottom line."



"We have a supercharger on order. Our pre-order price is $3700.00. We do not have firm price on the hood yet but expect it to be at or under $1000.00. There are a lot of pre-orders in already. We will need to fund Stillen immediately to reserve your kit.

It is a bolt on application.. Sport Z Magazine and Road and Track are doing features on the car. We are hearing over 50 HP with the kit. All the race engine builders are telling me that a supercharger is a better solution is a future turbo kit. "

Regards

Paul Gasparola
Avalon Racing
6 Jason Drive
Londonderry, NH 03053
(PHONE - (603) 425-2270
2 FAX - (603) 218-6149
(Cellular Phone: (603) 490-8285
* MAIL - Internet: paul@avalonracing.net

 

You're going to pay 5000 dollars for 50 HP?

 

Incredibly untrue. Here's a real good read for anyone curious about Nitrous Oxide.

Nitrous oxide injection is probably one of the most misunderstood modifications in our hobby.
Nitrous oxide is an oxygen bearing compound. Its chemical designator is N2O, so we know each nitrous oxygen molecule has two nitrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. Nitrous oxide is sometimes incorrectly known as "NOS". That is an acronym for the company, Nitrous Oxide Systems, which is the largest marketer of nitrous oxide injections system for automotive use.

Injection of nitrous oxide into the combustion chambers of an internal combustion engine as a way to increase power output was discovered by the German air craft industry early in the Second World War. Thousands of German figher and reconassance aircraft were equipped with the so-called "GM-1" system which added nitrous oxide to the intake charge to compensate for reduced air density and less oxygen high altitude. The British Royal Air Force also used aircraft engines with performance enhanced by nitrous oxide. Interestingly, there was no use of nitrous oxide injection by the American military air forces other than very limited experimental use. It is interesting to ask oneself that, if nitrous oxide injection was so dangerous to an engine's reliability, why would so many airplanes have used it?

In this country during 1950s the famed stock car racer Smokey Yunick rediscoverd nitrous oxide injection as one of his many schemes for winning races until discovered and outlawed by NASCAR. Neverthesless, there have been several nitrous oxide cheating scandals in NASCAR over the years and it is probably still used today by the slowest of backmarkers. In the late-70s/early-80s nitrous oxide was "rediscovered" by drag racers and hot rodders.

Today nitrous oxide injection, like many other modifications such as more aggressive camshafts, bigger carburetors, higher compression ratios, more free flowing intake and exhaust systems, can be a pracitical way to more horsepower. And..like any other modification...perhaps even more so because it so easily lends itself to misuse...there can be a reliabity and durability price to pay.

Nitrous oxide is a colorless, non-flammable gas. It has a slightly sweet taste and odor. It is non-toxic and non-irritating and when inhaled in small quantitites can produce mild hysteria and giggling or laughter. This is were the nickname "laughing gas" comes form. When inhaled in pure form it will cause death by asphyxiation because at atmospheric temperatures and pressure, the oxygen in nitrous oxide is not available to the body.

A property of nitrous oxide is that at about 565 degrees F., it breaks down into nitrogen and oxygen. When it is introduced into the intake tract of an internal combustion engine, it is sucked into the combustion chamber and, on the compression stroke, when the charge air temperature reachs 565 deg., a very oxygen-rich mixture results. If we add extra fuel during nitrous oxide injection, the effect is like a super charger or increasing the compression ratio of the engine. Automotive nitrous systems work like the automotive eqivalent of a jet's "afterburner" and is used for short duration extra bursts of power.

Nitrous oxide has this effect because it has a higher percentage of oxygen content than does the air in the atmosphere. Nitrous has 36% oxygen by weight and the atmosphere has 23%. Additionally, nitrous oxide is 50% more dense than air at the same pressure. Thus, a cubic foot of nitrous oxide contains 2.3 times as much oxygen as a cubic foot of air. Just do a bit of math in your head and you can see if we substitute some nitrous oxide for some of the air going into an engine than add the appropriate amount of additional fuel, the engine is going to put out more power.

Simply stated, nitrous oxide injection is very much like a supercharger or a compression ratio increase in that, during combustion, it can dramatically increase the dynamic cylinder pressure in the engine.

Of course, when we significantly increase the cylinder pressure in the engine, we also increase the engine's tendancy to detonate. This is why almost all nitrous motors require retarded spark timing during nitrous oxide operation. The cylinder pressure increase is also why, when misused or improperly installed, operation with nitrous causes problems with head gasket seal and failures of the rings or pistons. I should point out that any number of things that put an engine into severe detonation, such as too much boost from a supercharger, low octane fuel, excessive compression ratio or overly lean air-fuel ratio will also cause the same kinds of damage.

Another challenge with a nitrous oxide system is getting the delivery of nitrous oxide and additinonal fuel at the correct proportions. If you feed nitrous to the engine without enough extra fuel, the lean air/nitrous to fuel mixture will make the detonation problem even worse. Combustion temperatures will skyrocket and catistropic failure is certain to occur. If the proportion is such that too much fuel is delivered, the power advantage degrades rapidly.

As you can see, nitrous oxide is like any other power increasing modification in that, when used wisely and installed properly, it works well. Then used foolishy or installed incorectly it can significantly reduced the reliability/durability of your engine.

Small doses of nitrous oxide can be used in stock engines to gain 25-35% more power. In my opinion, any more than nitrous than that with a stock engine compromises durability too much. This is not only true of nitrous but any modification. Take a stock 82 or 84 engine, up the horsepower to 300hp and do nothing to improve durability and your engine will eventually suffer. Once you pass the 35% power increase mark with nitrous oxide you need to look at things like forged pistons, better connectiing rods, better bearings, etc.

Nitrous oxide is also a great value on a dollar-per-unit-power increase when installed and operated properly. The downside, of course, is the fun ends quiclky. The power boost lasts as long as the nitrous. The average bottle is a 20 pounder and with a street V8 that might be worth 20 seconds of use.

So, nitrous oxide is not the instant-engine-failure many people think it is. When used properly and when dispensed by a properly designed and installed system nitrous oxide can be responsible for some phenominal increases in power.

 

Speaking of engine killer. How is stillen handling the fuel issue? Very cheaply I suspect. 50HP? forget it!

Mark

 

Itsn't $5000 for 50Hp, it's $3700 + install. The other $1000 are for the hood.

I don't like SC, I'd prefer to save the $4000 and wait for the Greddy TT kit. I know I will need more than $4000 but it will worth the investment. +350 RWHP (maybe 400hp and more potential that the SC)

 

DO NOT get the SC. In my opinion, it's a waste of a lot of money. Here's what you'll end up paying basically
3,700 - SC
600 - Hood (Benifit of doubt)
1,000 - Install of SC and hood (benifit of doubt once again)
200 - Clearcoat/Paint hood
______________________
Total of : $5,500 If you want to argue this, you can even say $5,000.. Now realistically, $5000 for 50hp?

To top if off.. you have to go through the hassel of a new hood, honestly it's not worth it at all. If you want 50hp, just get a decent bottle of nitrious at a 10th of the price. Plus, nitrious, it's not continuious power, so if you use your Z for city driving and such, it won't be such a pain. Use it when needed. If you need more power, wait for the Greddy Twin Turbo kit, estimated price is around 5,000 which will include everything needed, intercooler, wastegate, downpipe, and the turbos of course, with a lot more. Even if you get 350rwhp, that's still a lot more a SC would give.. plus, run more boost = lot more power. Good luck with your decision.

 

Agree S/C is a waste of money. You could get a custom turbo kit built for around the same maybe a bit more and still maintain the stock look.

 

Good points from all of you, I really enjoyed reading the detailed history and information on Nitrious.

Do you know when the Greddy TT will be ready or can you point me to a web site so I can investigate?

I definately did NOT want to change the hood, but at the same time I want more HP and don't want spurts here and there that N can give me for a few seconds. I'll pay 5K tomorrow to get a TT with 350rwhp, tomorrow.

I need to find a speed shop in the Chicago area that is familiar with TT installs on the Z though. I'm too chicken to do it myself although I could probably handle it.

Dave

Dave

 

Not to insult anyone but 50hp for 5G's. .Forget that! 50 shot for Under 800.00

 

If you want more power a SC is not the best option although it's the only one (force induction) right know.

I'd wait for the TT kits to go on sell and go with NOS in the meantime.

A stock V6 can take a 75 shot without any problem.

 

i wonder why stillen even bothered to come out with such a contraption, and the use of a custom hood should be reason enough for them to burry the project.
it almost scares me that stillen didnt produce a turbo kit from the get-go, might be trying to tell us something...............
franklinz

 

Dont forget you also lose the strut tower brace!!

 

That is a compromise that I don't want to make. Same thing with the TEIN EDFC, you have to get rid of the strut tower brace.

I will wait for the TT setup.

 

Horsepower is boost dependant. I assume that the S/C is running around 5psi to make 50hp. By upgrading to a larger pulley more boost can be had, thus making more power. On a stock bottom end a S/C and Turbo will make similar power based on the fact that the 350 won't take much over 9psi and be reliable. The power will be at different points in the rpm band. A S/C will make more low and mid range hp with a very flat tq band. A turbo will be very peaky. With the most hp and tq being made in the upper rpms.

Nitrous on the other hand is pretty much only for racing. The power isn't available all the time and the bottle pressure must be kept in a certain range or the power output will be affected. The main problem with the basic Nitrous kit is that it is tapped into the intake and isn't distributed equally to all the cylinders. This is what leads to a lot of blown engines. I think the a Direct Port system is a better way of mixing Nitrous and Fuel into each cylinder. But again you run into the problem of once the bottle is empty the fun is over.

 

I agree with you in some points but not in others.

First , where in the RPM band a turbo makes power depends mostly on the size of the turbo. If you have a huge turbo then you won't have enough exhaust energy to drive it until late in the band. But if you have a well matched turbo then this is not a problem

Second, I agree that a stock VQ35 won't take much boost while being reliable, the stock compression is about 10:1 so it's too high for heavy boost. But the SC is limited by the pulley, so if you want more boost you wont get it.

Third, about the nitrous, the problem with even cylinder distribution comes when you're running big shot, more than 100hp, there are kits coming that have the benefits of direct port injection without the problems of manifold drilling, etc.

And then horsepower is not boost dependant, but air flow dependant. You can run huge amounts of boost but if your exhaust is small you get nothing.
If you run too much boost, you can hurt compressor efficiency and hurt performance and reliability, but that's another topic.

 

A supercharger will always make power instantly, but a turbo takes time to build. I think you mis read what I was getting at. I agree that a proper sized turbo will get rid of lag, but it will never produce the same off the line power that a S/C will.

A supercharger is limited by a pulley. But I'm sure a 9psi pulley will come about and this will be around the same psi that a Turbo would have to run due to the internals. If someone were to put forged internals into the engine then the turbo will be able to make a lot more power than the S/C based on the fact that the boost can be raised.

I totally disagree with you on the Nitrous. I've seen plenty of cars that damage rings with just a 50 shot. Tuning is a key, but there isn't equal distribution, that can lead to problems.

What I meant by HP is boost dependant is that the power Stillen is quoting is based on about 5 psi. If they were to release a kit that was 9psi they would probably quote 90 to 100 hp gain. That was what I was trying to get at.

I'm not trying to say one is better than the other. Just, to each there own.

 

Turbo will be the best for VQ35DE. That's why the new GTR is coming out with VQ35DETT

 

oh and by the way, the turbo technology has been improve tremendously in past few years, so big turbo's lag is very minimal due to newer design of bearing.

 

Smaller pulley increases boost. And overrevs the supercharger. Like smaller diameter tires rev the RPM's higher on the top end but help acceleration. You know?

 

When the GTR comes out tyhe compression ratio nwill be differeent for a turbo configuration. Although the same platform the motor will have differences in construction.

Regards