George,

I understand that the Greddy TT kit is primitive versus the APS Extreme TT. But I'm not into tracking or abusing my engine. Most of the time I will be having fun with this car on the freeway , i.e. short spurts of speed (no more 10 seconds). That's it for me. So i'm not too concerned about abusing the Mitsu turbos to the point of having to rebuild them. Plus Kenny said the whole idea behind water-cooled and ball-bearing turbos will not be a factor in my case as I am not going for big #'s or long-duration racing.

As you know, the APS Extreme comes with 880 cc injectors which is why Kenny wants to go with 1000 cc injectors (also in case in the future I want to run racing gas).

Trust me, I'm not too crazy about going with the Greddy TT set-up. It's not a really well-designed system as compared to the APS Extreme. It's just so damn cheaper!! Sharif has them on sale for $5649!!! Compared to $9600 for the APS Extreme.

Plus, as Kenny pointed out the Greddy is a proven set-up. There's not too many people who have a APS Exteme on a 3.5L setup so it's tough for me to gauge the overall picture and whether I'll be happy.

George, or anybody else with a Greddy TT, can you describe to me, since i've never riden in a 350z with the Greddy setup, what the Greddy TT feels like: is it smooth, linear power or is it more of harsh, whip-lash feeling when the boost kicks-in??? Thanks

 

Gurgen, my power goals are to kill, skin, and eat a Z06 corvette (year 2006 and up). Reason being I have so much respect for that car. If I can beat that car, I will be very happy!

That said, I will definitely bring to Kenny's attention his poor selection of injectors and go with the ones you recommend.

Gurgen, other than the fuel injectors, did you like Kenny's set-up? Will that allow me to accomplish my goal?

 

So are you looking for a 550rwhp car that is reliable? If you want to PM me your budget and goals and I can tell you what I would recommend.

While the PE Injectors are very nice, I don't think there is anything wrong with HKS 1000cc injectors, they do require some machining on the lower collector, but they are more than adequate Basically you can't go wrong with either set

-George
GT Motorsports

 

George PM sent

 

Haha! That's funny (the Z06 stuff).

OK, now you'll think that I am being a dick to Kenny T...

If Kenny in fact said that the 880cc are not enough and he wants to do 1000cc while knowing that you are not going for crazy numbers, then he is really clueless, since 880cc will have enough flow capacity for at least 800hp (provided the fuel pressure is set correctly).

Also, this quote:
I am always weary of hearsay...but IF and only IF he in fact said those words, then he's definitely clueless...sorry to say. Ball bearing turbos have been proven about 595,000 times to be superior to sleeve-type with respect to 1) spool 2) longevity (AT ANY LEVEL OF USE) and 3) yes, particularly longer longevity with high duty cycles/levels of use. He is definitely ignoring the first two. They WILL last longer ANY WAY YOU CUT IT. Plus, it's not the $300/turbo or so that costs to rebuild them, it's the labor of taking them on and off at least once that's going to erase the cost benefit of the Greddy vs. Garrett or IHI based setup (i.e. APS).

Not saying that he is worng in his recommendation, since the cost difference is smth to consider and that may have been the basis for his recommendation... who knows... but his technical justifications have LITTLE merit. And that's really not a matter of opinion, but fact.

Back to the Z06 stuff...

Those things have 445 hp/torque at the wheels, roughly, and weigh 3150 lbs...so that means they have a power-to-weight ratio of 7.1 lbs/hp. Let's be conservative and assume, and this is not necessarily the case, that the Z06 is better geared for a longer (15+ second) race, requiring you to have about 10% more power than him to safely beat him (with our presumably poorer gear ratios -- so this is worst case scenario). So, with the Z's 3339 lbs weight and the desired power to weight ratio of 7.1-10%= 6.4lbs/hp , you will need 3339/6.4= 521hp at the wheels. As simple as that. Now, that assumes a stock Z06.

 

Gurgen PM sent man. Thanks

 

George, you are right buddy. Both HKS and PE would work well, just as it stands today, PE might be a better overall choice. But you'll like the result of the HKS also.

George, don't be upset bro, dinner is on me this time. See you in a bit... I'll buy you an ice cream cone too. LOL

 

LMAO.

 

I'm not trying to start a huge debate, just interested in this section of your post.

1) I was always under the impression that most of or the entire advantage in spool of the dbb GT series turbos was not the bearings themselves, but from the lower rotational mass of the turbine wheel. Lighter wheel = faster spool.

2) True. However, these dbb units run hot enough, that if inadequate water cooling were employed the bearing sections would basically cook themselves. Still, you're generally correct due to the cooling factor and less tendency of coking. With the proper care and precautions, both units will have an extremely long life (longer than most intend to own the car).

3) Hopefully he plans to own the car that long, but yeah.


Up to mid 600whp levels, I'd say go with the greddy kit. Anything beyond that, then consider the APS Extreme setup. However, for big power I'd rather go with the SFR or Sound Performance kits!

Oh, and as far as EMS... I'd prefer the new Haltech platinum regardless. I have a dislike for HKS and locked EMS's.

 

Ice cream sounds good, were going to have to go to a place in LA that has some pretty expensive ice cream, since your buying this time

Seriously both sets of injectors are an excellent choice. I just didn't want anyone to think that the HKS injectors are not adequate, even though the PE's would have the advantage since they are designed for our engine specifically. Not just a generic injector.

Maybe we should just build you a 600rwhp setup, just in case you happen to come across a modded Z06

If anyone can build you a MONSTER of a street car, that is still reliable, it's us

-George
GT Motorsports

 

Alex,
Glad you started this thread, Gurgen's feedback is always awe inspiring... Still waiting to see those pics and videos...

TODD

 

Good to know Tauran...Kenny also said this. What also do you mean by proper precautions (Just curious)? do you mean turbo timers and changing out oil regularly?

 

Taurran,

1) rotational mass plays a role yes, albeit a tiny one. The wheels are not lighter itself by design just because the shaft that's attached to them is of one bearing type or another. So, the majority of the weight difference is concentrated on the shaft, specifically near the center section (@ the bearings). So, the rotational mass is not concentrated on the outside, where it would significantly slow things down, but at the bearings, where it would not have a significant effect (in fact, the more recent sleeve type bearing shafts are much more advanced than they used to be (at the time of the turbocharger's genesis), so even this mass difference is non-existent in most cases, and if not nonexistent, it's essentially inconsequential. That's my understanding of it.

2) You are correct in principle. However, I did use my PE turbochargers (for a lack of better advise initially, when I didn't know that much about turbochargers) that are meant to be water-cooled with the water cooling not connected. I did have a bent shaft on one turbo that was hence replaced, but was told that that could not be due to the lack of water, but rather due to the excessive surge (since I didn't have a BOV at all .... PE kit doesn't come with one) that continuously unsettled the smooth shaft rotation. The bearings are actually totally ok, with ZERO bearing play. Actually, the bearings themselves are designed to take a lot of heat, it's the oil coking that destroys they ability to rotate freely, so heat is involved though mostly indirectly. But yes, I would never run a water-cooled turbo with oil-cooling only, as the amount of oil that goes into a DBB turbo is far less than the oil that goes into a sleeve-type turbo, hence far less cooling capacity. With proper use, paraphrasing Corky Bell for a lack of better evidence, the BB turbos last approximately twice as long as non-BB turbos....but that certainly be a long time, no doubt.


EDIT:

I knew to forgot the somthing...the EMS.

The thing with that is that the Fcon takes the crown as far as maturity is concerned. We know that it works and works great . But yes, for those not around HKS Prodealers, something more open yet powerful is appropriate, as those people are stuck with UTEC's and the like. Fcon's reputation is that of being extremely reliable, and that's a big deal. We'll just have to wait and see what happens, but I am all for it, the more choices the better. I'd love to hear more about it... From what I know from talking to Haltech, it's an E11v2-based unit. Their software is pretty decent, on par with the Autronic I'd say, but nowhere close to MoTeC, which is just the ultimate, Pectel, HKS, or Magneti-Marelli.

 

Turbo timers are essential here...that's I am sure what he meant... of course no more than 3K mi on any oil change is essential too.

 

Todd.... that's too kind ...thanks!!!

I will be talking to Alex tomorrow. So I am sure he'll get all sorted out.

 

Sorry for all these individual posts guys...jsut wanted to reiterate ...HKS will work just fine, in fact it's proven to work well. Phunk was the first person to run them here, and he still does with no issues, not to mention George's car and Sam's GTM car, and many others whose names I don't know.

I do not mean to upset anyone who got HKS's...just being honest and reiterating what is already known...availability of a good alternative for our cars.. Nothing new here, as this has been reported in the past.

No hard feelings George!

 

No worries

Thanks for dinner

-George
GT Motorsports

 

Gurgen, seriously man, you need to write a book. You practically have a Ph.D when it comes to this stuff. gj.

 

Actually he does have a Ph.D (funny you mention that) just not on this stuff, not saying he couldn't

-George
GT Motorsports

 

The new 350Z Haltech Platinum pnp ecu is not based on the E11v2, but rather is an entirely new platform. The new platinum ecu also comes with brand new software which is one of the best I've ever seen/used.
Also, I wouldn't praise MM's software too much... incredible ecu, but I can't say the same about their interface.