Vortech VS. Single Turbo
Originally Posted by Nexx
thats exactly why i love my sc, around town its a great daily. open her up she turns into animal. 
Just be easy on the accel paddle or keep it under 3500rpm, It feels completely stock.. My Z is a DD as well.When I said felt completely stock, I meant that as it wasn't pinning my body against the seat making me gasping for air~ Hahahah~
Last edited by leeboyNY; Aug 29, 2007 at 10:53 PM.
I'm meaning in the end of my build i eventually want around 450. after i can afford the internals to build the engine thats what im looking for. and i know i'll get flammed for only wanting 450 with the engine being built but thats why it is MY build.
Originally Posted by jperleon
I'm meaning in the end of my build i eventually want around 450. after i can afford the internals to build the engine thats what im looking for. and i know i'll get flammed for only wanting 450 with the engine being built but thats why it is MY build.
my vortech Z doesn't feel stock at low rpms just driving around town normally. It feels noticably stronger than stock at every variation of the throttle pedal.
A turbo would feel pretty different at half throttle at low rpms if you're not giving it much throttle. As you roll onto the throttle at low rpms, it'll feel NA until you hold it there for a bit to build some heat in the exhaust to turn the turbos or you give it more throttle to accellerate the process. It's more of an short exponential curve vs the vortech's more stretched out linear curve
About the 7psi = 7psi thing, as far as pressure goes yeah that's true they're equal, but not as far as power is concerned. PSI numbers in relation to power numbers can be all over the map due to the efficiency of the blower/turbo or how well the engine/exhaust flows the air out, and the temperature of the air. But the main thing with a turbo is the full power comes on at an earlier rpm.
However keep in mind, even if you had a turbo and ran it at 2 psi, those turbos will still reach the same red hot temps as they would if they ran 20 psi in the manifold. They create the extra airflow no matter what. The wastegate or boost controller just bleed off the excess air so it doesn't go into the engine, but the turbos still get super hot every time you run them no matter what your boost gauge says
people were talking about my setup,
yeah I'm running lots of things with my setup - water/meth injection, lots of timing, at least half race gas, 2.87 pulley, cams, full exhaust, lightweight rotational mass parts, 3.9 final drive, standalone EMS, etc. It's completely possible to replicate what I have though if someone wanted. I'm pushing things a little, but IMO nothing crazy and probably not anymore stress on my block that if I had a 420whp/420tq turbo setup.
I fully agree a turbo will be more fun to drive and a vortech, no matter how extreme will feel NA in nature.
Hell even a 550whp vortech Z06 will feel NA and will probably feel just as thrilling as a a 400whp turbo Z because of the turbo Z's sudden torque increase even though it'd be slower in a race. I love turbo boost, but I also really like linear throttle control
A turbo would feel pretty different at half throttle at low rpms if you're not giving it much throttle. As you roll onto the throttle at low rpms, it'll feel NA until you hold it there for a bit to build some heat in the exhaust to turn the turbos or you give it more throttle to accellerate the process. It's more of an short exponential curve vs the vortech's more stretched out linear curve
About the 7psi = 7psi thing, as far as pressure goes yeah that's true they're equal, but not as far as power is concerned. PSI numbers in relation to power numbers can be all over the map due to the efficiency of the blower/turbo or how well the engine/exhaust flows the air out, and the temperature of the air. But the main thing with a turbo is the full power comes on at an earlier rpm.
However keep in mind, even if you had a turbo and ran it at 2 psi, those turbos will still reach the same red hot temps as they would if they ran 20 psi in the manifold. They create the extra airflow no matter what. The wastegate or boost controller just bleed off the excess air so it doesn't go into the engine, but the turbos still get super hot every time you run them no matter what your boost gauge says
people were talking about my setup,
yeah I'm running lots of things with my setup - water/meth injection, lots of timing, at least half race gas, 2.87 pulley, cams, full exhaust, lightweight rotational mass parts, 3.9 final drive, standalone EMS, etc. It's completely possible to replicate what I have though if someone wanted. I'm pushing things a little, but IMO nothing crazy and probably not anymore stress on my block that if I had a 420whp/420tq turbo setup.
I fully agree a turbo will be more fun to drive and a vortech, no matter how extreme will feel NA in nature.
Hell even a 550whp vortech Z06 will feel NA and will probably feel just as thrilling as a a 400whp turbo Z because of the turbo Z's sudden torque increase even though it'd be slower in a race. I love turbo boost, but I also really like linear throttle control
Last edited by sentry65; Aug 30, 2007 at 12:31 AM.
you also most consider that if you plan on building the engine in the future you would be better off with a single turbo rather than a supercharger their will be a big difference in tq numbers. I have seen single turbo that have just as much torques as it does hp plus their is a member on here his name is jeremy he is on a stock block with a single turbo setup running really low 11's almost 10's but he is also a excellent driver. BUT IF YOU HAVE THE MONEY I WOULD SAY GO TT AND IF YOU CANT DO A ENGINE BUILD RIGHT AWAY THAT IS OKAY JUST RUN ON REALLY LOW PSI AND YOU SHOULD BE FINE.
Last edited by marques1; Aug 29, 2007 at 11:07 PM.
what i seem to understand is that a turbo is harder to tune than a supercharger it has something to do with how the boost comes in on a turbo vs. a supercharger and also heat. Won't you just go tt and get a boost controller and set it on a low setting where your making supercharger numbers then when you build your engine and want more power all you have to do is push a button and then you have lots of power.
but where are all the horror stories of blowing the engine come into play? most of those guys weren't really pushing it. they were just running stock boost for there kits right?
it's a multitude of things with why the vortech is safer
having less heat in the engine bay helps, but that's not really what I'd consider the main thing the vortech does well with for reliability. The heat from turbo(s) can be dealt with using thermal coatings, heat wrap, vented hood, thick radiator, fans, etc etc anyway
The vortech doesn't hit high boost at low or mid rpms. The VQ's natural peak tq is the midrange rpms, combine that with the smallish turbos that are naturally efficient at mid rpms and you end up with big midrange torque numbers - which is great for feeling a lot of power and accellerating you harder. But that's also going to be a higher peak cylinder pressure which IMO is a big contributor to weakening the rods - not to mention how hard and fast a turbo can come on when it does
The vortech creates a mostly flat torque curve and doesn't create a higher midrange torque peak like a turbo does.
You can think of it as being at a rock concert for 4 hours vs spending a few minutes being five feet from a space shuttle launch and then 3 hours at a rock concert right afterword. Your ears will take more damage from even a few seconds from the shuttle launch at close range (you'd actually go deaf) than spending 4 hours at a rock concert, but man you'd really feel those decibel levels at the shuttle launch. But if you kept some distance from the shuttle, and/or first spent the money on ear protection, then you could endure the shuttle launch a lot longer
The other thing is the vortech's boost is consistent in all cases at all rpms. It's not variable like a turbo which has to first be spooled. How fast it spools at different rpms, gear you're in, and how hard you're pressing the gas pedal varies all over the place. It's a pretty massive undertaking to really tune for all those variables, and a lot of EMS's aren't very good at getting detailed with it
Those variables have to be carefully programmed into the turbo's tune as best as possible and that's sometimes hard to do given the multitude of throttle positions, rpms, gears, loads, occasional boost spike, etc. You need a good EMS to really make the best of it and if you don't have one and/or don't really try to fine tune for all those variables, you can possibly briefly run lean here and there - possibly even briefer than the speed your A/F gauge might read at or log
Whereas the vortech can actually get away with something as simple as an ECU flash because you actually don't even really need to monitor boost because it's always going to be linked to rpm anyway. It's MUCH simpler to set up a vortech tune than a turbo tune
The times where people have damaged their engine with a vortech, those people usually overlooked something or did something stupid and they ran the car hard anyway. Because the damage in most of those cases were spun bearings or chipped pistons, to me that means the damage was more of a gradual process. I'd be willing to bed if the stakes were higher with higher cylinder pressure, a lot of those "minor" damages could have been major damage if they had a lot more torque behind them
having less heat in the engine bay helps, but that's not really what I'd consider the main thing the vortech does well with for reliability. The heat from turbo(s) can be dealt with using thermal coatings, heat wrap, vented hood, thick radiator, fans, etc etc anyway
The vortech doesn't hit high boost at low or mid rpms. The VQ's natural peak tq is the midrange rpms, combine that with the smallish turbos that are naturally efficient at mid rpms and you end up with big midrange torque numbers - which is great for feeling a lot of power and accellerating you harder. But that's also going to be a higher peak cylinder pressure which IMO is a big contributor to weakening the rods - not to mention how hard and fast a turbo can come on when it does
The vortech creates a mostly flat torque curve and doesn't create a higher midrange torque peak like a turbo does.
You can think of it as being at a rock concert for 4 hours vs spending a few minutes being five feet from a space shuttle launch and then 3 hours at a rock concert right afterword. Your ears will take more damage from even a few seconds from the shuttle launch at close range (you'd actually go deaf) than spending 4 hours at a rock concert, but man you'd really feel those decibel levels at the shuttle launch. But if you kept some distance from the shuttle, and/or first spent the money on ear protection, then you could endure the shuttle launch a lot longer
The other thing is the vortech's boost is consistent in all cases at all rpms. It's not variable like a turbo which has to first be spooled. How fast it spools at different rpms, gear you're in, and how hard you're pressing the gas pedal varies all over the place. It's a pretty massive undertaking to really tune for all those variables, and a lot of EMS's aren't very good at getting detailed with it
Those variables have to be carefully programmed into the turbo's tune as best as possible and that's sometimes hard to do given the multitude of throttle positions, rpms, gears, loads, occasional boost spike, etc. You need a good EMS to really make the best of it and if you don't have one and/or don't really try to fine tune for all those variables, you can possibly briefly run lean here and there - possibly even briefer than the speed your A/F gauge might read at or log
Whereas the vortech can actually get away with something as simple as an ECU flash because you actually don't even really need to monitor boost because it's always going to be linked to rpm anyway. It's MUCH simpler to set up a vortech tune than a turbo tune
The times where people have damaged their engine with a vortech, those people usually overlooked something or did something stupid and they ran the car hard anyway. Because the damage in most of those cases were spun bearings or chipped pistons, to me that means the damage was more of a gradual process. I'd be willing to bed if the stakes were higher with higher cylinder pressure, a lot of those "minor" damages could have been major damage if they had a lot more torque behind them
Last edited by sentry65; Aug 30, 2007 at 12:09 AM.
Alright that cleared a bunch up for me thank you. The majority of the reliability is the consistency of boost made by the Vortech.
So it's not that 7psi is 7psi it is how the power is layed out on the RPM's?
Also with a Vortech is a high 300whp number out of the question? I see a lot of 330's and 340's but not to many up closer to the 400's.
So it's not that 7psi is 7psi it is how the power is layed out on the RPM's?
Also with a Vortech is a high 300whp number out of the question? I see a lot of 330's and 340's but not to many up closer to the 400's.
Last edited by jperleon; Aug 29, 2007 at 11:59 PM.
Originally Posted by jperleon
like i said earlier i know numbers arent everything but if you dont mind me asking Nexx how much WHP do you have?
Originally Posted by jperleon
Alright that cleared a bunch up for me thank you. The majority of the reliability is the consistency of boost made by the Vortech.
So it's not that 7psi is 7psi it is how the power is layed out on the RPM's?
Also with a Vortech is a high 300whp number out of the question? I see a lot of 330's and 340's but not to many up closer to the 400's.
So it's not that 7psi is 7psi it is how the power is layed out on the RPM's?
Also with a Vortech is a high 300whp number out of the question? I see a lot of 330's and 340's but not to many up closer to the 400's.
Honestly, psi readings are not really what I'm concerned with the most. I mainly look at the power/tq numbers first. I'd rather have 400whp made with just 4 psi than with 15 psi because 4 psi is putting less stress/friction on the engine. And the psi can easily be changed by changing the exhaust and flow of the engine. You could have something like 400whp at 8 psi or if you used a more restrictive exhaust you could have 370whp @ 11psi. So IMO psi just tells me how efficient a setup is or how the dyno graph might be shaped since higher flowing exhausts usually gain high rpm power but often can lose low rpm power as a tradeoff
there's a bunch of people with vortechs close to 400whp out there. All you need is either the 3.12 or 2.87 pulley and whatever degree of breathing mods you can get in combination with it to get close to 400whp and 320-340 tq.
Just remember that anyone with a 400whp turbo setup will outrun a 400whp vortech by a couple carlengths or so
Last edited by sentry65; Aug 30, 2007 at 12:29 AM.
I fully agree a turbo will be more fun to drive and a vortech, no matter how extreme will feel NA in nature.
Hell even a 550whp vortech Z06 will feel NA and will probably feel just as thrilling as a a 400whp turbo Z because of the turbo Z's sudden torque increase even though it'd be slower in a race. I love turbo boost, but I also really like linear throttle control__________________
^^^^^^Quote part of Senty's post
I think this is stretching it quite a bit,,,dont you think ????
A 150whp difference , no matter if your comparing a SC or a TT car . I'll take the car with 150whp more . And it will feel faster....much faster than the other . Dont see how you could even make such a stupid comparo . A 550whp ZO6 will have more trq. that a 400whp TT Z and be more thrilling to drive ..PERIOD !!!!!!
Hell even a 550whp vortech Z06 will feel NA and will probably feel just as thrilling as a a 400whp turbo Z because of the turbo Z's sudden torque increase even though it'd be slower in a race. I love turbo boost, but I also really like linear throttle control__________________
^^^^^^Quote part of Senty's post
I think this is stretching it quite a bit,,,dont you think ????
A 150whp difference , no matter if your comparing a SC or a TT car . I'll take the car with 150whp more . And it will feel faster....much faster than the other . Dont see how you could even make such a stupid comparo . A 550whp ZO6 will have more trq. that a 400whp TT Z and be more thrilling to drive ..PERIOD !!!!!!
Last edited by booger; Aug 30, 2007 at 05:13 AM.
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Originally Posted by sentry65
.
I'd rather have 400whp made with just 4 psi than with 15 psi because 4 psi is putting less stress/friction on the engine.
I'd rather have 400whp made with just 4 psi than with 15 psi because 4 psi is putting less stress/friction on the engine.
Personally I prefer the little turbo being pushed at higher psi that will create both top end power and very little leg..
I guess where I’m going with this is how do you want your car to feel? the clear advantage of a sc is the instant power vs a leggy turbo.
7psi vs 7psi wouldn’t the turbo clearly put down more power, the difference being a turbo makes pure power where the sc uses power to make more.
Im not in the market for either or, but if I were id go with the instant power of a SC. As much as I LOVED my turbo 240, one thing everyone always complains about is LAG.
Isn’t a SC the perfect turbo? No lag.
Regardless of what you choose...if you are strapped for cash while getting school taken care of... I gotta say wait.
Conservative boost levels and competent tuner aside....junk breaks even when you do everything "right". If you can't afford to rebuild the engine, don't go FI yet. I can't say how many times I've seen people (from students to doctors) hope that they were one of the fortunate ones to run for 2+ years at "safe" boost levels, only to be facing a rebuild at the 4 month mark after snapping a rod.
Granted we all benefit now from the trial and error cats that paved the way, blowing stock blocks on the Greddy kit out of the box at 5psi, we've come along way over the last 3 years. I just hate to see someone dig themselves into a whole, due to a false sense of security created by all the success stories on the board. I've watched students have to sell their cars after going FI, blowing the motor, and barely affording to get it back to stock.
This is the reason I'm waiting another 6 months until the car is paid off and I get into house before I send it to Sharif at Forged Performance and do a built block and TT at the same time.
When people on the boards say stuff like "If you can't pay, don't play" ...it's not an elitest attitude. It's people that have been there...done that and they are just looking out for all of us that are coming up behind them with FI aspirations and Delusions of grandeur.
my .02
good luck with whatever you do and be sure to POST PICS. We are PIC Wh0res.
(edited for spelling)
Conservative boost levels and competent tuner aside....junk breaks even when you do everything "right". If you can't afford to rebuild the engine, don't go FI yet. I can't say how many times I've seen people (from students to doctors) hope that they were one of the fortunate ones to run for 2+ years at "safe" boost levels, only to be facing a rebuild at the 4 month mark after snapping a rod.
Granted we all benefit now from the trial and error cats that paved the way, blowing stock blocks on the Greddy kit out of the box at 5psi, we've come along way over the last 3 years. I just hate to see someone dig themselves into a whole, due to a false sense of security created by all the success stories on the board. I've watched students have to sell their cars after going FI, blowing the motor, and barely affording to get it back to stock.
This is the reason I'm waiting another 6 months until the car is paid off and I get into house before I send it to Sharif at Forged Performance and do a built block and TT at the same time.
When people on the boards say stuff like "If you can't pay, don't play" ...it's not an elitest attitude. It's people that have been there...done that and they are just looking out for all of us that are coming up behind them with FI aspirations and Delusions of grandeur.
my .02
good luck with whatever you do and be sure to POST PICS. We are PIC Wh0res.
(edited for spelling)
Last edited by ColecatZ; Aug 30, 2007 at 07:45 AM.
Originally Posted by booger
I fully agree a turbo will be more fun to drive and a vortech, no matter how extreme will feel NA in nature.
Hell even a 550whp vortech Z06 will feel NA and will probably feel just as thrilling as a a 400whp turbo Z because of the turbo Z's sudden torque increase even though it'd be slower in a race. I love turbo boost, but I also really like linear throttle control__________________
^^^^^^Quote part of Senty's post
I think this is stretching it quite a bit,,,dont you think ????
A 150whp difference , no matter if your comparing a SC or a TT car . I'll take the car with 150whp more . And it will feel faster....much faster than the other . Dont see how you could even make such a stupid comparo . A 550whp ZO6 will have more trq. that a 400whp TT Z and be more thrilling to drive ..PERIOD !!!!!!
Hell even a 550whp vortech Z06 will feel NA and will probably feel just as thrilling as a a 400whp turbo Z because of the turbo Z's sudden torque increase even though it'd be slower in a race. I love turbo boost, but I also really like linear throttle control__________________
^^^^^^Quote part of Senty's post
I think this is stretching it quite a bit,,,dont you think ????
A 150whp difference , no matter if your comparing a SC or a TT car . I'll take the car with 150whp more . And it will feel faster....much faster than the other . Dont see how you could even make such a stupid comparo . A 550whp ZO6 will have more trq. that a 400whp TT Z and be more thrilling to drive ..PERIOD !!!!!!
others have said on the vette forum with how the NA or supercharged vette feels deceptivily fast because of how broad and flat the tq curve is
(not to mention all the extra wheelspin on that setup doesn't make you all that much faster than stock anyway)
http://www.motortrend.com/features/p..._corvette_z06/
going from 200 tq to 400 tq on a turbo 350 Z from 2000-4000 rpms = 200 tq difference over 2000 rpms
vs
going from 350tq to 450tq on a vortech Z06 from 2000-7000 rpms = 100 tq difference over 5000 rpms
my point was that the difference in tq and how quickly it goes from one to another is what you feel the most. Just like how going from no throttle to full throttle pins you back in your seat more than going 50% to 100% throttle. The more sudden the change in tq is, the more you get pinned back in your seat and it feels faster
Last edited by sentry65; Aug 30, 2007 at 08:41 AM.
Originally Posted by jperleon
So the main reason behind the Vortech being so safe is that it doesnt create as much heat as the ST or TT setups? By the way thanks for helping me out guys.
more heat yes... but actualy failures or a blown egnien cause of heat with build motors has hardely been the case... taking from examples from peeps runign the TN and PAS st setups in AZ heat...i do think vortech is safer but hand sdown at 7psi or 8psi flat on both setup the witha safe tune...the engine will run good on both for qutia while no problems and def the turbo wil be more powerful and produce way more torque.
Originally Posted by IIQuickSilverII
more heat yes... but actualy failures or a blown egnien cause of heat with build motors has hardely been the case... taking from examples from peeps runign the TN and PAS st setups in AZ heat...i do think vortech is safer but hand sdown at 7psi or 8psi flat on both setup the witha safe tune...the engine will run good on both for qutia while no problems and def the turbo wil be more powerful and produce way more torque.
