rod/piston install, engine IN car???
Registered User
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 402
Likes: 0
From: Sydney, Australia
lol at the noobs who think building a motor involves handing over 20k to a shop.
OP this isnt a honda, and thats the first thing u will learn about the VQ. Working on anything in the engine bay is a pain in the ***, so much so its its easier to drop the engine when doing anything involving components under the valve cover. You cant even torque the heads properly with it in.
OP this isnt a honda, and thats the first thing u will learn about the VQ. Working on anything in the engine bay is a pain in the ***, so much so its its easier to drop the engine when doing anything involving components under the valve cover. You cant even torque the heads properly with it in.
Originally Posted by deanfootlong
im sure it can be done. but i wouldn't throw new pistons and rods in the motor without decking the block and heads before you mate them back together. at least do that much. an important step in building a motor thats overlooked a lot; balancing.
Originally Posted by Weqster
lol at the noobs who think building a motor involves handing over 20k to a shop.
OP this isnt a honda, and thats the first thing u will learn about the VQ. Working on anything in the engine bay is a pain in the ***, so much so its its easier to drop the engine when doing anything involving components under the valve cover. You cant even torque the heads properly with it in.
OP this isnt a honda, and thats the first thing u will learn about the VQ. Working on anything in the engine bay is a pain in the ***, so much so its its easier to drop the engine when doing anything involving components under the valve cover. You cant even torque the heads properly with it in.
doesnt mean you have to pay a shop 20k to build your motor. i just wouldnt skip over decking and balancing everything. that doesnt cost much. the last thing you want is a mechanical failure at 7k rpms because your built motor isnt balanced.
thats just my opinon. if you throw pistons and rods in your motor while its in the car and it runs great, thats awesome. more power to ya. my personal opinion would be to have it balanced and decked. if you're spending the cash and time on the parts and your own invested time, go one more extra step and balance and deck the motor.
thats just my opinon. if you throw pistons and rods in your motor while its in the car and it runs great, thats awesome. more power to ya. my personal opinion would be to have it balanced and decked. if you're spending the cash and time on the parts and your own invested time, go one more extra step and balance and deck the motor.
Registered User
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 402
Likes: 0
From: Sydney, Australia
Originally Posted by Silverstone-Z
All the extra processes that a well-equipped shop can do is worth the money and time you don't have to spend.
The thing about the honda scene is because they are soooo easily worked on, you can do everything yourself. Alot of guys have good motors, they strip them and put internals from other engines in there.. (used/new) So u can build urself a hi-comp/low comp motor for half the cost, in a day. And in alot of applications, you can get away with plastigauge and a hand-drill hone. Hell alot of people get away with none of the above. Seeing as motors are so cheap and its so easy for anyone to work on, you get these kinds of experiments and you learn what u can get away with.
And if you dont think its progress, the Honda scene has a variety of setups which would NEVER have existed without DIYers trying stuff out of the box/on the cheap. For instance, SOHC vtec motors are commonly boosted to get good power outputs without swapping in a DOHC. Now the SOHC suffered from server cases of headlift when boosted high. They also liked to melt the intake releifs of the pistons.
One setup conceived was the vitara piston setup. Now these pistons were never meant for any honda, let alone the sohc. They are run with no boring, cause they only came in stock bore, or an oversized too big for the thin sleeves. So people used to run these with all sorts of massive piston-to-wall. They sounded like deseils, but god damn could they take boost, and boost reliably. You have backyard guys, street tuning themselves running 30psi of boost. 10sec timeslips in a FWD without a cage. 400whp+. At first, everyone bagged the guys who did it, they said they wouldnt last, they said they would be un-reliable. These motors were unsleeved. Un/Sleeved motors built by the pro's were popping like chicken eggs, but these guys kept backing up, run after run. These days u can get a piston/rod setup for around $250. Its ghetto, but it works.
Another innovation the DIYer came up with was timming. To keep the head down, on the SOHC you cant run any timing. Its sounds counter intuitive, but to get more power, you up the boost and run lower timing. You dont get the bang-for-psi gains, but you get reliability. THe DOHC guys would run 15-18deg of timing above 15psi. The SOHC guys need to run 3-12degs. Both are open sleeve design, but other facts in the SOHC including the r/s ratio of the induce harmonics that made the sleeves dance.
Anyways, all im saying is that shops tends to stick with what they know. They apply general principles too building which dont always suit. And even the shops that say they specialise in the VQ, they get it wrong. The scene progresses through trial and error. Shops like to cover up errors with lots more money and shift the blame (user, fuel, tune, mechanical etc etc etc). They fix it with a new engine, they fix it with another new engine, and then the customer is so sick of pooring money into the pit, they fix it and sell it to some other guys while its ok. Its a pattern u see in every scene. The people who innovate arnt usually shops.
Banned
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,342
Likes: 0
From: under the hood
Originally Posted by Weqster
Anyways, all im saying is that shops tends to stick with what they know. They apply general principles too building which dont always suit. And even the shops that say they specialise in the VQ, they get it wrong. The scene progresses through trial and error. Shops like to cover up errors with lots more money and shift the blame (user, fuel, tune, mechanical etc etc etc). They fix it with a new engine, they fix it with another new engine, and then the customer is so sick of pooring money into the pit, they fix it and sell it to some other guys while its ok. Its a pattern u see in every scene. The people who innovate arnt usually shops.
Registered User
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 402
Likes: 0
From: Sydney, Australia
Originally Posted by go-fast
+1 big builds look good on paper but offer little insurance against terminal failure,especially if you dont know when to stop turning up the boost.poverty is the mother of invention and i have more respect for a car built with creativity that performs than the biggest build you could imagine.with that said you can't discount math and the importance of at least knowing what you are working with.NOTE:i have not seen one single shop on this forum offer a blueprint or balance sheet for ANY of their motors which leads me to think it's just not happening.i'm not trying to sell motors here,i don't advertise here and don't intend on it,but at least my customers know exactly what they paid for and can duplicate or modify the blueprint based on changing needs.now all you guys who paid for high dollar balanced and blueprinted engines...call your shop tomorrow and ask for the balance/blueprint sheets for your motor and see if you get a generic parts list.if they don't have YOUR spec sheets(with all the math) for YOUR motor,you got hosed.real builders have each engine's math,every detail on file.not just for you but as a tool for advancing the product.has anyone on this forum ever recieved a blueprint?
Banned
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,342
Likes: 0
From: under the hood
Originally Posted by Weqster
This is a good point.
Originally Posted by go-fast
thanks...i have asked the "blueprint" question before and it seems no one wants to talk about it.i think the vq would be light years ahead if every one did what they where supposed to do and had real comparitive data.i haven't even seen combustion volume seriously explored,just because you buy 8.5 pistons does not even suggest that you have the same volume on each cylinder.and people just wonder and speculate why one hole keeps self destructing first.even if the head is cc'ed (again...never even seen it offered) you still need tdc volume checked and BALANCED,due to core shift and irregular deck height.this is kinda tough talk about vq builders,but if you want to be taken serious you really need to step up or lower you prices and confess that you are really just a rebuilder.
+1 to you go-fast for having the ***** to say this. Finally someone that speaks the truth. There is a lot of money thrown around here on motors. Everyone thinks that all the shops here are gods gift to the Vq. Does anyone remember all the problems with the DARTON SLEEVES? I would love to see a real blueprinted motor. But as usual this to will go unanswered. Mainly because it would hurt many pockets.
Originally Posted by Weqster
Well thats debatable. 20k and getting a motor that pops headgaskets in the first 10k miles. Do you think thats money well spent?
The thing about the honda scene is because they are soooo easily worked on, you can do everything yourself. Alot of guys have good motors, they strip them and put internals from other engines in there.. (used/new) So u can build urself a hi-comp/low comp motor for half the cost, in a day. And in alot of applications, you can get away with plastigauge and a hand-drill hone. Hell alot of people get away with none of the above. Seeing as motors are so cheap and its so easy for anyone to work on, you get these kinds of experiments and you learn what u can get away with.
And if you dont think its progress, the Honda scene has a variety of setups which would NEVER have existed without DIYers trying stuff out of the box/on the cheap. For instance, SOHC vtec motors are commonly boosted to get good power outputs without swapping in a DOHC. Now the SOHC suffered from server cases of headlift when boosted high. They also liked to melt the intake releifs of the pistons.
One setup conceived was the vitara piston setup. Now these pistons were never meant for any honda, let alone the sohc. They are run with no boring, cause they only came in stock bore, or an oversized too big for the thin sleeves. So people used to run these with all sorts of massive piston-to-wall. They sounded like deseils, but god damn could they take boost, and boost reliably. You have backyard guys, street tuning themselves running 30psi of boost. 10sec timeslips in a FWD without a cage. 400whp+. At first, everyone bagged the guys who did it, they said they wouldnt last, they said they would be un-reliable. These motors were unsleeved. Un/Sleeved motors built by the pro's were popping like chicken eggs, but these guys kept backing up, run after run. These days u can get a piston/rod setup for around $250. Its ghetto, but it works.
Another innovation the DIYer came up with was timming. To keep the head down, on the SOHC you cant run any timing. Its sounds counter intuitive, but to get more power, you up the boost and run lower timing. You dont get the bang-for-psi gains, but you get reliability. THe DOHC guys would run 15-18deg of timing above 15psi. The SOHC guys need to run 3-12degs. Both are open sleeve design, but other facts in the SOHC including the r/s ratio of the induce harmonics that made the sleeves dance.
Anyways, all im saying is that shops tends to stick with what they know. They apply general principles too building which dont always suit. And even the shops that say they specialise in the VQ, they get it wrong. The scene progresses through trial and error. Shops like to cover up errors with lots more money and shift the blame (user, fuel, tune, mechanical etc etc etc). They fix it with a new engine, they fix it with another new engine, and then the customer is so sick of pooring money into the pit, they fix it and sell it to some other guys while its ok. Its a pattern u see in every scene. The people who innovate arnt usually shops.
The thing about the honda scene is because they are soooo easily worked on, you can do everything yourself. Alot of guys have good motors, they strip them and put internals from other engines in there.. (used/new) So u can build urself a hi-comp/low comp motor for half the cost, in a day. And in alot of applications, you can get away with plastigauge and a hand-drill hone. Hell alot of people get away with none of the above. Seeing as motors are so cheap and its so easy for anyone to work on, you get these kinds of experiments and you learn what u can get away with.
And if you dont think its progress, the Honda scene has a variety of setups which would NEVER have existed without DIYers trying stuff out of the box/on the cheap. For instance, SOHC vtec motors are commonly boosted to get good power outputs without swapping in a DOHC. Now the SOHC suffered from server cases of headlift when boosted high. They also liked to melt the intake releifs of the pistons.
One setup conceived was the vitara piston setup. Now these pistons were never meant for any honda, let alone the sohc. They are run with no boring, cause they only came in stock bore, or an oversized too big for the thin sleeves. So people used to run these with all sorts of massive piston-to-wall. They sounded like deseils, but god damn could they take boost, and boost reliably. You have backyard guys, street tuning themselves running 30psi of boost. 10sec timeslips in a FWD without a cage. 400whp+. At first, everyone bagged the guys who did it, they said they wouldnt last, they said they would be un-reliable. These motors were unsleeved. Un/Sleeved motors built by the pro's were popping like chicken eggs, but these guys kept backing up, run after run. These days u can get a piston/rod setup for around $250. Its ghetto, but it works.
Another innovation the DIYer came up with was timming. To keep the head down, on the SOHC you cant run any timing. Its sounds counter intuitive, but to get more power, you up the boost and run lower timing. You dont get the bang-for-psi gains, but you get reliability. THe DOHC guys would run 15-18deg of timing above 15psi. The SOHC guys need to run 3-12degs. Both are open sleeve design, but other facts in the SOHC including the r/s ratio of the induce harmonics that made the sleeves dance.
Anyways, all im saying is that shops tends to stick with what they know. They apply general principles too building which dont always suit. And even the shops that say they specialise in the VQ, they get it wrong. The scene progresses through trial and error. Shops like to cover up errors with lots more money and shift the blame (user, fuel, tune, mechanical etc etc etc). They fix it with a new engine, they fix it with another new engine, and then the customer is so sick of pooring money into the pit, they fix it and sell it to some other guys while its ok. Its a pattern u see in every scene. The people who innovate arnt usually shops.
Why do sleevs, pauter rods, cam$ and a host of other parts if just pistons/rods(eagle) will do for 550rwhp?
I feel shops should offer these options first instead of the customer demanding them.
Last edited by mistico; Jun 24, 2008 at 09:42 AM.
Originally Posted by Weqster
lol at the noobs who think building a motor involves handing over 20k to a shop.
OP this isnt a honda, and thats the first thing u will learn about the VQ. Working on anything in the engine bay is a pain in the ***, so much so its its easier to drop the engine when doing anything involving components under the valve cover. You cant even torque the heads properly with it in.
OP this isnt a honda, and thats the first thing u will learn about the VQ. Working on anything in the engine bay is a pain in the ***, so much so its its easier to drop the engine when doing anything involving components under the valve cover. You cant even torque the heads properly with it in.
who is paying 20k for an engine build????
from what I see getting close to 20k is for the engine (long block with cams), twin turbo kit, engine management (Fcon/Haltech) and miscellaneous.........
from what I see getting close to 20k is for the engine (long block with cams), twin turbo kit, engine management (Fcon/Haltech) and miscellaneous.........
people here (generally speaking) think that going FI means it will cost them 20k. thats the impression i get.
i spent under 4k on going FI installed, tuned, everything.
its just a matter of making the right decisions on purchases and using available resources.
i spent under 4k on going FI installed, tuned, everything.
its just a matter of making the right decisions on purchases and using available resources.
Originally Posted by deanfootlong
people here (generally speaking) think that going FI means it will cost them 20k. thats the impression i get.
i spent under 4k on going FI installed, tuned, everything.
its just a matter of making the right decisions on purchases and using available resources.
i spent under 4k on going FI installed, tuned, everything.
its just a matter of making the right decisions on purchases and using available resources.
Originally Posted by Weqster
lol at the noobs who think building a motor involves handing over 20k to a shop.
OP this isnt a honda, and thats the first thing u will learn about the VQ. Working on anything in the engine bay is a pain in the ***, so much so its its easier to drop the engine when doing anything involving components under the valve cover. You cant even torque the heads properly with it in.
OP this isnt a honda, and thats the first thing u will learn about the VQ. Working on anything in the engine bay is a pain in the ***, so much so its its easier to drop the engine when doing anything involving components under the valve cover. You cant even torque the heads properly with it in.
Banned
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,342
Likes: 0
From: under the hood
Originally Posted by captj3
+1 to you go-fast for having the ***** to say this. Finally someone that speaks the truth. There is a lot of money thrown around here on motors. Everyone thinks that all the shops here are gods gift to the Vq. Does anyone remember all the problems with the DARTON SLEEVES? I would love to see a real blueprinted motor. But as usual this to will go unanswered. Mainly because it would hurt many pockets.
Originally Posted by go-fast
+1 big builds look good on paper but offer little insurance against terminal failure,especially if you dont know when to stop turning up the boost.poverty is the mother of invention and i have more respect for a car built with creativity that performs than the biggest build you could imagine.with that said you can't discount math and the importance of at least knowing what you are working with.NOTE:i have not seen one single shop on this forum offer a blueprint or balance sheet for ANY of their motors which leads me to think it's just not happening.i'm not trying to sell motors here,i don't advertise here and don't intend on it,but at least my customers know exactly what they paid for and can duplicate or modify the blueprint based on changing needs.now all you guys who paid for high dollar balanced and blueprinted engines...call your shop tomorrow and ask for the balance/blueprint sheets for your motor and see if you get a generic parts list.if they don't have YOUR spec sheets(with all the math) for YOUR motor,you got hosed.real builders have each engine's math,every detail on file.not just for you but as a tool for advancing the product.has anyone on this forum ever recieved a blueprint?