Cams/Compression Quesion
I just meant the standard size vs Extreme. Chris got the new version kit with the non-Garrett turbos and discovered that they were crap for a built motor setup. He then sent them to Blouch who fitted them with Garrett ball bearing CHRA's, which I believe were slightly bigger than the CHRA used in the original ball bearing version of the APS kit. He made 643whp with the modified turbos.
Last edited by RudeG_v2.0; Jan 5, 2011 at 09:05 AM.
In BC's defense, all the VQ related builds I've heard of were good, just noticed a couple of Honda builds where they complained. Also note, after they were degree'ed properly (and/or replaced through BC) they made good power.
Id call them and relay the concerns. Depending on how they handle it, you can decide on the outcome.
My car woke the fawk up wth BC cams AND different tuning.
Power gains were silly.
My car woke the fawk up wth BC cams AND different tuning.
Power gains were silly.
Im getting ready to build a block for my APS TT, we are going to try to upgrade the housings if they physically fit. My goal is ~600rwhp on pump with meth since Jon@Z1 recently tuned a APS TT and made 593 with stock APS housings and no meth. I want to keep the car streetable since i dont necessarily require to daily drive it buy it does get driven alot (currently @99k miles). Right now i dont plan to sleeve the block and do a pretty basic build but im trying to decide on cams and compression.
Ive talked to JWT and they say for over 580rwhp i should use C8 or C9 cams (the other APS car made 593 with C2s) and for C8s i should set idle 800-900 and C9s 1k+. Since a more aggressive cam lowers an engines dynamic compression i want to know if i could get away with slightly higher compression than the common 8.8:1. And also i believe a higher static compression would improve the harsh idle from the cams.
I want your opinions on going with atleast a 9.5:1 piston with the APS TT and aggressive cams since it is only efficient to a relatively low 15psi.
What do you think? should i just do the basic C2 with 8.8 compression or try one of these options? What do you think about GTM cams? does anyone know the reasoning behind the staggered durations?
Thanks,
Rob
Ive talked to JWT and they say for over 580rwhp i should use C8 or C9 cams (the other APS car made 593 with C2s) and for C8s i should set idle 800-900 and C9s 1k+. Since a more aggressive cam lowers an engines dynamic compression i want to know if i could get away with slightly higher compression than the common 8.8:1. And also i believe a higher static compression would improve the harsh idle from the cams.
I want your opinions on going with atleast a 9.5:1 piston with the APS TT and aggressive cams since it is only efficient to a relatively low 15psi.
What do you think? should i just do the basic C2 with 8.8 compression or try one of these options? What do you think about GTM cams? does anyone know the reasoning behind the staggered durations?
Thanks,
Rob
I had 8.8:1 compression in the 3.5L motor and we were really pushing the limits of 93 octane at 609 whp. We pulled the timing back at peak torque and ran it fairly rich. My new motor has 8.5:1 compression, which should help to stave off detonation a bit better.
I had the C2's and made over 600 whp (Mustang Dyno). Others have made more on those cams. Now I have the C8's because I am shooting for 680 whp on 93 octane and over 700 whp (hopefully 750) with meth injection (new 4.0L motor vs 3.5L for the old motor).
I had 8.8:1 compression in the 3.5L motor and we were really pushing the limits of 93 octane at 609 whp. We pulled the timing back at peak torque and ran it fairly rich. My new motor has 8.5:1 compression, which should help to stave off detonation a bit better.
I had 8.8:1 compression in the 3.5L motor and we were really pushing the limits of 93 octane at 609 whp. We pulled the timing back at peak torque and ran it fairly rich. My new motor has 8.5:1 compression, which should help to stave off detonation a bit better.
I used C2s on my 900 DD setup, but big turbos can carry a small cam further. Going with C8s this time as the C9s required a ton of work. Read over SGash's use of them on his NA car. You have to mechanically limit the cam gears, etc.
Jim Wolf was wishy washy about even using them on my top end build.
I made 715DD on pump/meth with my 9:1 last time. Staying with 9:1 (although 8.5:1 woulda prolly been a better choice at my boost levels) this time as well. But I wont be running pump 93octane, either E85 or 93 with 30gal/hr meth.
Since you wanna hit 600+ on pump gas alone with those smallish turbos, 8.5:1 is your best bet like everyone else has said.
Jim Wolf was wishy washy about even using them on my top end build.
I made 715DD on pump/meth with my 9:1 last time. Staying with 9:1 (although 8.5:1 woulda prolly been a better choice at my boost levels) this time as well. But I wont be running pump 93octane, either E85 or 93 with 30gal/hr meth.
Since you wanna hit 600+ on pump gas alone with those smallish turbos, 8.5:1 is your best bet like everyone else has said.
Last edited by str8dum1; Jan 5, 2011 at 11:45 AM.
Also, Japtrix is finally pulling my car into the shop this week to get underway, which certainly has picked up my spirits with regard to my car. I'm generally very patient, but waiting for all of the pieces to come together has been stressful.
I have been working 70 hour weeks for months with the end of the year push we typically see to get patent applications written and on file, in addition to all of the office action responses. I finally got a breather.
Also, Japtrix is finally pulling my car into the shop this week to get underway, which certainly has picked up my spirits with regard to my car. I'm generally very patient, but waiting for all of the pieces to come together has been stressful.
Also, Japtrix is finally pulling my car into the shop this week to get underway, which certainly has picked up my spirits with regard to my car. I'm generally very patient, but waiting for all of the pieces to come together has been stressful.
sorry for the thread hijack.
I used C2s on my 900 DD setup, but big turbos can carry a small cam further. Going with C8s this time as the C9s required a ton of work. Read over SGash's use of them on his NA car. You have to mechanically limit the cam gears, etc.
Jim Wolf was wishy washy about even using them on my top end build.
I made 715DD on pump/meth with my 9:1 last time. Staying with 9:1 (although 8.5:1 woulda prolly been a better choice at my boost levels) this time as well. But I wont be running pump 93octane, either E85 or 93 with 30gal/hr meth.
Since you wanna hit 600+ on pump gas alone with those smallish turbos, 8.5:1 is your best bet like everyone else has said.
Jim Wolf was wishy washy about even using them on my top end build.
I made 715DD on pump/meth with my 9:1 last time. Staying with 9:1 (although 8.5:1 woulda prolly been a better choice at my boost levels) this time as well. But I wont be running pump 93octane, either E85 or 93 with 30gal/hr meth.
Since you wanna hit 600+ on pump gas alone with those smallish turbos, 8.5:1 is your best bet like everyone else has said.
more duration will def shift your curve to the right quite a bit if your previous tune was on stock cams. but thats not necessarily a bad thing as it will help with traction.
Alberto has mad sick power with his stage3's so I'd just try to mimic his setup since the turbos are similar sized. But you have to remember that the cams might not necessarily raise your peak hp,they may just broaden your powerband. Just like how Alberto said the stage2 were withing 10hp of the stage3.
600 on pump with turbos that size is going to be very aggro regardless of cams.
Alberto has mad sick power with his stage3's so I'd just try to mimic his setup since the turbos are similar sized. But you have to remember that the cams might not necessarily raise your peak hp,they may just broaden your powerband. Just like how Alberto said the stage2 were withing 10hp of the stage3.
600 on pump with turbos that size is going to be very aggro regardless of cams.
So what cams do you suggest for my build? I know you made good power with C2s but the other APS kit with C2s only made 594rwhp and that was a very aggressive tune. I know C8s or BC Stage 2 or 3 would make more HP but do you think it would shift my curve to far to the right and loose peak TQ?
Last edited by str8dum1; Jan 6, 2011 at 09:21 AM.
I dont have files of the before graphs just old wrinkled print outs.
All Dynojet numbers, 5th gear.
JWT S1
13psi 525whp
15.5psi 581whp
BC 3's
13psi 605whp
15.5psi 656whp
All on 93 pump gas, meth is slightly higher hp, with gobs more TQ. Thats all off the top of my ehad I could be off by a few hp pn either one.
Driving it initially compared to ther S1's the TQ curve felt weak, the car felt weak overall, then I switched tuners and it woke up and came together.
Good flat TQ curve. I only rev past 7500rpm's in lower gears and when racing, so basically never/track only. Usually shift at 7000rpm's.
Low boost BC3
All Dynojet numbers, 5th gear.
JWT S1
13psi 525whp
15.5psi 581whp
BC 3's
13psi 605whp
15.5psi 656whp
All on 93 pump gas, meth is slightly higher hp, with gobs more TQ. Thats all off the top of my ehad I could be off by a few hp pn either one.
Driving it initially compared to ther S1's the TQ curve felt weak, the car felt weak overall, then I switched tuners and it woke up and came together.
Good flat TQ curve. I only rev past 7500rpm's in lower gears and when racing, so basically never/track only. Usually shift at 7000rpm's.
Low boost BC3
im really leaning towards a setup very similar to yours, do you have anymore details on the Stage2 car that made nearly the same power? or a graph?
Ive decided to go with 8.5-8.8:1 (depending on availability) , and to stick with the Eagle Rods, now i just need to decide Stage 2 or 3 cams
Thanks for all the help
Is the standard in the FI forum STD? Ive always gone by SAE numbers since that is what Z1 goes by, since STD is ~2.6% higher that would make my goal closer to 620rwhp.
Like I said before the graph on the BC2/Greddy and smaller downpipe car was identical + or - 5whp everywhere. I opted for slightly lower peak numbers with 93 oct + 100% meth, he did race gas and at 20-21psi for us both he does about 20-25whp MORE than me, he can run more timing.
Dynos are dynos, I wouldnt say there is a standard other than maybe saying the most common numbers come from Dynojets. Recently before this "rod knock" Im nearly positive I have, my car did 599whp on that same dyno and correction so it seemingly ran well to the end. I want to do a simple builld and get this sleeve nightmare out of my life and move on.
Old tuner was Forged, new tuner is PFS, in frederick, MD.
Dynos are dynos, I wouldnt say there is a standard other than maybe saying the most common numbers come from Dynojets. Recently before this "rod knock" Im nearly positive I have, my car did 599whp on that same dyno and correction so it seemingly ran well to the end. I want to do a simple builld and get this sleeve nightmare out of my life and move on.
Old tuner was Forged, new tuner is PFS, in frederick, MD.
Various APS builds on built motors, albeit mostly from the same tuner.
500 at 14 psi
https://my350z.com/forum/shop-builds...ro-500whp.html
this did 540 with meth
https://my350z.com/forum/shop-builds...p-506rwtq.html
530 @14 psi
https://my350z.com/forum/shop-builds...longblock.html
585 at 17psi with C2 cams
https://my350z.com/forum/shop-builds...-dyno-vid.html
so i'd imagine that 59x tuner Z1 did was pretty aggressive for pump. Tuning for pump on a razor's edge is risky to say the least.
500 at 14 psi
https://my350z.com/forum/shop-builds...ro-500whp.html
this did 540 with meth
https://my350z.com/forum/shop-builds...p-506rwtq.html
530 @14 psi
https://my350z.com/forum/shop-builds...longblock.html
585 at 17psi with C2 cams
https://my350z.com/forum/shop-builds...-dyno-vid.html
so i'd imagine that 59x tuner Z1 did was pretty aggressive for pump. Tuning for pump on a razor's edge is risky to say the least.
Last edited by str8dum1; Jan 6, 2011 at 01:54 PM.
Like I said before the graph on the BC2/Greddy and smaller downpipe car was identical + or - 5whp everywhere. I opted for slightly lower peak numbers with 93 oct + 100% meth, he did race gas and at 20-21psi for us both he does about 20-25whp MORE than me, he can run more timing.
Dynos are dynos, I wouldnt say there is a standard other than maybe saying the most common numbers come from Dynojets. Recently before this "rod knock" Im nearly positive I have, my car did 599whp on that same dyno and correction so it seemingly ran well to the end. I want to do a simple builld and get this sleeve nightmare out of my life and move on.
Old tuner was Forged, new tuner is PFS, in frederick, MD.
Dynos are dynos, I wouldnt say there is a standard other than maybe saying the most common numbers come from Dynojets. Recently before this "rod knock" Im nearly positive I have, my car did 599whp on that same dyno and correction so it seemingly ran well to the end. I want to do a simple builld and get this sleeve nightmare out of my life and move on.
Old tuner was Forged, new tuner is PFS, in frederick, MD.