daking350

I just spent 45 minutes on the phone today with a Tech at ATI regarding my FMU settings..He did say that once you move one slider from the stock settings the car needs to be tuned.He said it ships about 10% rich and moving one setting a fraction changes the whole thing..He did aknowledge that 7psi of boost is THE MAX(and he did specify the MAX) amount of safe boost you can run with stock Timing..He was very specific on the timing issue and said 350-365 whp your fine but once you start going higher you need some timing control. Hed did say the Stock injectors were suprisingly sufficient with the FMU and can run up to 120-130psi of fuel pressure!!
He also told me that they are experimenting with different things on a new 2004 Z they plan on beating the hell out of..He said that They dont feel confident going near 400 hp with the stock timing and ECU but apparently Techno square is the only ones who have cracked the Nissan's ECU, and since TS is a sister company of one of ATI's compeditors they can't do business together.Otherwise they would have done an ECU deal with TS.
He kept stessing the timing issue and I felt that in not so many words he was telling me something here...
He did seem enthusiastic to help me but could not recomend any other means of fuel delivery system at this point. He said they need to test a bunch of different parts they have from various companies..He did recomend to have TS remap the timing to make it less agressive but not the fuel settings. He said the FMU could do what its supposed to do. He did make is sound that ATI is very confident with the Aeromotive FMU system and has been using it for some time now.He further STRESSED the importance of using the NGK plugs they recommend.
What we talked about made perfect sense to me and I picked up on all the subtle stressing of certain points he made.
This is what I learned...
1) do not go above 7 psi of boost with stock timing(he did stress this several times)
2)do use the recomended plugs!!
3)do NOT bump the rev limiter to 7100..No body knows what the timing does after 6500rpms and the guys raising the revlimiter are NOT adjusting the timing.So the faster you spin the supercharger the more boost you create on STOCK TIMING.
4)make sure you know the sound of detonation,it is your engine telling you something!!
5)the more mods you have(exhaust,headers,cats..)the more POTENTIAL you have to create added HP..Added HP equals more heat and more chance for detonation if a less than IDEAL condition is present..
6)bouncing the rev-limiter is EXTREMELY BAD!!our cars have a FUEL cut not an ignition cut like the old Supras..This is done for emissions reasons of course..
He was very helpful and seemed like he knew his stuff, he even is sending me replacement bolts for my chewed up ones free of charge and keep in mind I bought my kit used..I must say after speaking with ATI I can totally see their point of view on certain issues, and I really do have a level of confidence in the design of the kit..Aside from certain little bugs they are working on(fitment issues and possible timing upgrades)I feel that the FMU WILL do what it is supposed to do to a certain extent..You wont ever see 450hp+ with it but it is very capable of doing the job...I felt that he kind of leaned towards the timing issue being the culprit and kind of hinted that ATI is working on it but he wouldnt say for sure..

Yielar

Thanks for the info!


Yielar

damen

the only thing i'm confused on is that everyone always says if you go FI you need to upgrade your exhaust system. from reading what you wrote doing that can be bad. i had no plans in changing mine anyway but others may think twice now.

snolden

what about the j&s safeguard that was used by the guy in texas. It automatically senses boost and pulls a few degrees of timing at the top. It also can be wired to ALWAYS pull some timing from the stock unit.

do a google for j and s safeguard timing retard

I think the price is around a grand and another couple hundred for the MAP sensor

Mike@Altered

iTrader: (5)

We are going to stock a few of the J&S safeguards for the 350Z. The kit for the 350Z runs around $525-545.00 if I remember correctly (at home, not at the shop so I can't double check) and comes with an internal map sensor to allow control of timing vs. boost pressure. So, basically, you can set the J&S to retard a given amount of timing at several different boost points.

Also, it monitors the factory knock sensor, so it can be setup to retard timing if the motor knocks (wether it be knocking because of timing or a lack of fuel, etc.).

Anther option would be an ECU Flash. I am finishing development with my ATI Procharged 350Z so we can offer our customers different timing, fuel, and rev limit options for their supercharged setup.

Thanks,

jesseenglish

Yeah, we just had a group buy on the J&S Ultrasafeguard. You'll see a couple more users with it installed soon with their Procharger setup.

daking350

You dont HAVE to do exhaust, in fact the ATI kit was designed to work on a BONE STOCK Z..An exhaust will allow gasses to expell faster and more efficiently allowing more air/fuel to be taken in therefore creating more power..When you create more power you make more heat and pressure in the cylinders, increasing the risk of detonation..This is what ATI is saying, You are seeking more power than what they designed the kit for, therefore you increase the risk of malfunctions.You in a way are pushing the stock injectors and fuel pump(which they say will handle it)and the stock timing which at this point is suspect...I seemed to interpret my covorsation with ATI , in that you are fine at 350-365WHP with their system.But it seems the system is so on the edge of safety that if you go and squeese an extra 15-25 ponies out of it you are risking failure...I know for a fact one of the engines that went was just DYNO'D at 389RWHP the day before it blew..
The fuel mixture was fine when it was tuned..So either the guy got really bad gas,revlimited the hell out of it or ran into TIMING issues with the extra HP...He was bone stock except for a Borla True dual and his revlimiter was stock..He ran a 13.1@109 then went POP!!!

I myself after speaking to ATI feel that my next mod will to be address the timing!!!ASAP!!The fuel system as crude as it is will support alot more HP and is effective..

daking350

I dont think this system will work...I think you need more than a FEW degrees of retard on boost..I think an ECU flash is the only way to go..

jesseenglish

The J&S system can retard timing more than you will ever possibly need.

elektrik_juggernaut

I'm not sure i buy what their saying about the horsepower/detonation relationship........i'm putting out a maximum of 339rwhp, and i'm getting detonation.......if you trace the curve to where it should be if it didn't detonate, i would have a maximum of about 350rwhp, which is still under the danger-zone, according to them

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

that is teh funnest thing I have read in a tuning forum in a loooong time

If you need that mush fuel pressure, you are about 1/2 sized on your injectors.

Also, as the car runs richer, timing is increased...so by altering fuel you automatically alter timing.

If you hear the detonation, the damage has been done...fingers crossed you don't lose your motor.

Lots of things cause detonation...there is no magic answer.

This kit should SHIP with the colder plugs and a J&S at a minimum, even in a low boost form.

daking350

I beginning to think the problem is with your car..Maybee a bad injector??Dirty fuel filter??Some thing along those lines...Have you looked into the problem being your car itself???It just seems odd you would only make 339whp..All the dynos I seen done ran a minimum of 350rwhp and went all the way to 389rwhp...339 sounds low..

daking350

that is teh funnest thing I have read in a tuning forum in a loooong time

If you need that mush fuel pressure, you are about 1/2 sized on your injectors.

I am not sure what you mean...I was only stating what ATI told me the fuel system would run..Maybee he ment 120-130% on the injectors..

Also, as the car runs richer, timing is increased...so by altering fuel you automatically alter timing..
How would adding fuel effect the timing???I am lost on this one...If that was the case then the FMU ATI supplies would alter timing,this is clearly not the case...

If you hear the detonation, the damage has been done...fingers crossed you don't lose your motor...
So if you detonate only once your telling me the motor is screwed??

Lots of things cause detonation...there is no magic answer....

Well this seems to be the problem here..we need to figure out what is causing it exactly on these kits..

This kit should SHIP with the colder plugs and a J&S at a minimum, even in a low boost form.
your a vendor..Why dont you sell it as a package deal then??

elektrik_juggernaut

The AF is good.....11.8:1

12SecZ

Sounds like ATI fooled another one.

I have never heard of SCer kits running on stock exhaust. Go hang out at a shop that knows how important it is to increase your exhaust piping size for FI and N20.

Even so, EJ's exhaust *is* stock.

Go tell an exhaust shop about this stock exhaust for FI lol most of them will laugh at you.

Now EJ's car is bad? Man, I see how this works now. Anything but ATI I guess right? How about the kit was designed properly?

If the timing is wrong then the kit is bad PERIOD.

Anywayz good luck with your Aermotive FMU setup with 6500 rev limiter. LOL! Boom! Post your track slips as soon as you can.

BTW,

The whole idea in raising your rev limiter is so you don't hit it.

Wow, I am truly amazed. The other day you were asking about larger injectors and larger fuel pump and one call to ATI and everything is fine and dandy.

Truly amazing to me.

daking350

I simply said that maybe EJ has a pre existing problem somewhere..Why is he detonating with an a/f of 11:8:1???Thats pretty rich so what can it be???Timing right?He is the only one I have heard of who can not tune his car for some reason..I was merely suggesting that maybee take a look somewhere else..The bottom line, like it or not is that the kit will work when tuned properly, with the FMU..Is it the best possible way to run it?NO absolutely not, but it is effective and has been used for years..same principle as a booster pump when running NOS..it works, crudely but it works..
As for the exhaust, the kit was designed for a stock 350Z with stock exhaust..of course an exhaust is RECOMENDED by any shop and it will make the effects of FI better...And it WILL produce more HP..BUT the kit was designed for a certain amount of hp and when you push the limits of it your gonna have failure..It may have been one thing or several things that contributed towards your engine failure..I personally feel it was tuning in your case..ALl I was trying to prove is that the kit should not have a problem on a stock set up running around 350hp..when you quest for more hp you take the limits and stretch them, sometimes things break...Lets face it , the ATI is the single biggest HP producing BOLT ON mod available right now..And if you think power enterprise,Stillen, Vortech,Dreamworks,Veilside sc's wont pop an engine then you are nuts...
I am by no means supporting ATI I am merely saying that they were helpful to ME so far..As far as the future mods I plan on, I have not yet decided which way I want to go yet. Ireally dont feel like sending my ECU to CALI every time I add a mod, so for now I would like to get the kit to perform as it is supposed to with as little $$$$ invested ...I want to address the timing first...Is the kit 100% bug proof..No, by no means...

As far as the rev limiter,if people shif when they are supposed to they wont hit the rev limiter. It doesnt matter if it is set a 2000rpms or 700,000 rpms...If you give yourself 500 extra rpms from 6500 to 7000 you are GOING TO TAKE IT UP TO 7000RPMS anyway, you wont still shift at 6500rpms...If you have not addressed your timing then dont bump the rev limiter..PERIOD...

As far as my times..I ran it 2 days at the track on stock FMU settings and got a 13.1@108 with a 2.09 60ft...best..

So dont be hatin on me man!!I was merely stating MY experiences thus far.Had I popped my motor I would have an attitude with ATI also...I am simply trying my best to keep people informed and not take a one sided view..As far as EJ, His situation is different and he needs to cover EVERYTHING possible to determine what is wrong with his kit..

12SecZ

I am not hating man I just would like you to be set up properly and the Aeromotive with stock timing and stock fuel is not a good setup but that is my opinion.

Don't bring up the past, let's deal in the present tense ok?

I am past that. Respectable times, I think the kit is capable of more and if you are happy with 13.1 or even 12.9 then good, you still need to address 28 degress TDS though.

I want low 12's so I am opening up my exhaust and adding fuel. Not every kit has to be the same but it just seems like you did a 180 today that's all and it suprised me after our talk of different plans.

Of course I wish you luck with your car, I'm a Z enthusiast, I wouldn't wish what happened on me on others, however with your stock setup it is more likely to happen than with mine right?

That's all.

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

I'll explain. Your post mentions ATi stating that the injectors run fine at 120 psi...i say BS. Show me an injector on a production carthat can HANDLE 120 psi without self destruction. better yet, show me a fuel pump that can DELIVER 120 psi on a production car..it simply does not exist. Now, lets say you misunderstood and they meant duty cycle. Even still, 120% means quite simply you are more than out of injector, and that the injectors are no lnger pulsing as they should.....they are simply staying opened.

This is where I think alot of you guys that went SC did not do your research carefully enough. the stock ecu on this, and every other car, is adaptive. Moreover, tuning parameters do not operate in a vacuum. Timing affects fuel, fuel affects timing...why? I edited my last post to correct what I said, but basically, if you add fuel, at a certain point, your timing is being retarded at the same time. As fuel is taken away, timing will increase. this is why for all you guys running FI of any kind, a datalogger, even a cheesy OBD2 one, is worth its weight in gold..it will tell you everything about how teh car is running and when, and will allow you to make intelligent choices on future mods, rather than guessing, or putting up with it, as many of you have.

Does this mean that one small amount of detonation wrecks the motor? I suppose that depends where in the stroke process of the motor that occurs. My point is that detonation can and does occur long before you hear it....if you hear it, its BAD....very very BAD. if you want to really see where the car is detonating, get a datalogger (though it does not read knock in most cases, you an se significant timing dips, which is a good indicator of detonation (whcih the ecu is responding to by yanking timing away).

Lots of things cause detonation...there is no magic answer....

A combination fo things is causing it - high compression, relatively small injectors. Hell, do you SC'd guys even know what your stock fuel pressure is, or what the specs of the fuel pump are? This is stuff I would have made sure to know before buying a kit like this....either that, or be prepared for the worst (as many of you are finding out). Saying that fitting an aftermarket exhaust to th car is going to induce detonation is BS...it was a way to get you off the phone.

Why don't we sell it like this? Becuase sorry to say, I see this kit as being an exercise in compromises. From the fuel pump controller as the ONLY means of fuel control, to the amount of boost, lack of larger injectors, etc. etc. I am still of the personal opinion that this motor, in its otherwise stock form, is not the right motor for boost for 99% of the customers out there. Why? because of the stuff I read here everyday. I just don't see people have a good handle on what it is they are doing with these various setups, and as a result, lots of people are having problems. Most people do not havea datalogger, most people do not havea boost or EGt gauge....they are simply treating the kit as if they picked it up from Nissan. As a vendor, we are careful to understand the parts we are selling....if we don't understand it, or at the very least be able to GET the informaton quickly to a person, we don't sell it. What's more, is we scrutinize our customers regarding purchases like this carefully - if when talking to a person at our shop, I get the feeling that I am over their head, or they have unrealstic requests or expectations, I'll turn the job down...it is not worth the brain damage on either end.

A/F ratio is not the only indicator of detonation......you can still be gettign knock (or what the ecu percevies as knock) even at seemingly rich A/F's...again, this is where an investment into a good datalogger would be priceless.

As I said, a J&S, colder plugs (make sure you buy the right ones, as many ahve installed plugs that wee too short, causing misfires) is a MINIMUM for this kit to run well IMHO. The great thing about the J&S is you can set it to retard at a certain boost leel, by a user definable amount. Again, only way to know here to start retarding timing and when you do, by how much, is to use a logger and see where the car wants it or needs it.

elektrik_juggernaut

Adam is right.....at a minimum this kit should have included timing control, along with the colder plugs that they say to use.........for ATI to say that 7PSI is safe on this engine with no timing control, but at 8PSI timing control becomes necessary is a huge, steamy crock of horsesh*t........

this is more PR spin to try to explain why their biggest competitor (Vortech) included the timing control, and why they didn't.......why do you think the tech was "hinting" at timing issues so much........he should have just said ,"yeah, we screwed up, please go buy the J&S, and don't sue us....thanks"........he could have saved himself a lot of trouble

Basic engine building principals will tell you that the exhaust thing is a "given".......if you're putting more air in, you have to get more air out.......if you want to maximize the gains to be made by going FI.......but now i'm glad that i didn't change my exhaust, because if i did, ATI would say thats why my car detonates

ATI would like you to believe that i must have some pre-existing condition........of course.......it's been their longstanding tradition to point the finger everywhere else except at their kit......thats the last excuse they can come up with........lets have a little refresher course in the ATI Blame Chain:

1) First blame the tuners

2) Then blame the other modifications

3) Then blame the way they're driving

4) Then blame the other modifications again(even though some of them fix the problems)

5) If 1-4 do not apply proceed directly to blaming Nissan

12SecZ

ATI sent a letter to my court claiming "pre exsisting condition" too. I thought that was quite rude and their facts were wrong in that letter too. How do they all the way in Kansas know what is on my car? It sounds like they are making this up as they go along! (My opinion, not to be taken as fact.)

Why does EJ's letter to the BBB say 7-8 lbs by it's author, says the 7-8 pound kit right? Doesn't that contradict what the tecj told you? Why is marketing and sales writing letters and not tech's? I could be wrong but I could of swore I saw that 8 lb number in his letter posted to the BBB from ATI.

Since my case is behind me let me speak on something with impunity that has been bothering me .

When I was at the first installer there was a phone call between the installer and the tech. I was there and heard it.
It was reguarding the FMU stock settings being "wrong." This is a quote, "Hey who wrote this manual it's wrong." The tech said, "I did" LOL! They laughed like it was funny but this was an authorized shop calling someone who was involved in writing the manual admitting the manual was wrong and the stock settings were way too rich!

You see the problem? So the installer notices that I am making low boost because I have a open exhaust and larger intake plenum.

The Tech didn't say hey, don't put that thing on there, don't do the install it's dangerous, it won't work.

You know what ATI did? The sent me MORE boost! Smaller pulleys! So I can make MORE BOOST!

So it seems that on any given day you can be told something different.

Look in this thread alone we have 3 different stories one even in writing. So Daking like I said good luck with their advice. It didn't work for me, maybe you will have better luck. All of these technical notice things were neven mentioned back when my car was on the Dyno, they just said "tune it" and fax us the data!

What they should have said then is what they are saying now. AnywayZ water under the bridge, I did the right thing, I have an open exhaust, larger injectors, larger fuel pump and a flashed ECU. Turns out lots of other people do and are just now admitting it!

Your kit with the stock ECU and stock timing and that red box is just an accident waiting to happen but hey it's your car, just roll the dice. Just don't point the finger at others cars like EJ's that is plain wrong. I saw him do a 13.6 at the track N/A nothing is wrong with his car man! It runs fine. The kit doesn't work with the stock timing, end of story.

Why do you think Altered Atmosphere is trying to help us with timing ideas? He wants good cars on the road, not blown up ones!