Help Diagnose Vortech Dyno Please!
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^ watching temps is always a good idea but Hal is pretty meticulous about those kind of things (assuming a gauge is present, of course).
My 5AT held a lot more power before showing slip on Hal's dyno. I also used an Edge Racing TC. I asked Andre to ensure it would hold 800 at the crank as I recall. The "anomoly" is the torque converter locking up, it brings rpms down and causes that dip or sometimes a loop on the dyno graph. If you do a run in 3rd gear it should be much smoother. At least that takes the lock up function out of the equation. If you've had the stator clutch fail in the TC, it will result in extreme inefficiency (as the stator can spin freely in either direction). If you have overheated the transmission in the past, all bets are off.
When problems occur, you often have to resort to ruling out items one by one. Given the new motor and new transmission (and similar dyno issues persist), I believe the most likely failure point is the TC. Talk to Andre at Edge, show him the dynos and see what he says. Did you tell him what power level it needed to hold? I have never heard a bad report of a built TC failing from Edge (assuming no overheat episode). If you asked Andre to build you an 800 hp capable converter (usually costs 400-500$), then I don't know what to say.
It's the transmission or TC... See what kind of customer service IPT will give you. Good luck man.
My 5AT held a lot more power before showing slip on Hal's dyno. I also used an Edge Racing TC. I asked Andre to ensure it would hold 800 at the crank as I recall. The "anomoly" is the torque converter locking up, it brings rpms down and causes that dip or sometimes a loop on the dyno graph. If you do a run in 3rd gear it should be much smoother. At least that takes the lock up function out of the equation. If you've had the stator clutch fail in the TC, it will result in extreme inefficiency (as the stator can spin freely in either direction). If you have overheated the transmission in the past, all bets are off.
When problems occur, you often have to resort to ruling out items one by one. Given the new motor and new transmission (and similar dyno issues persist), I believe the most likely failure point is the TC. Talk to Andre at Edge, show him the dynos and see what he says. Did you tell him what power level it needed to hold? I have never heard a bad report of a built TC failing from Edge (assuming no overheat episode). If you asked Andre to build you an 800 hp capable converter (usually costs 400-500$), then I don't know what to say.
It's the transmission or TC... See what kind of customer service IPT will give you. Good luck man.
I had Hal get the TC... They got it from Edge and it was in the $500+ range so it should be good to go... I never talked to them personally. I may try to give them a call on Monday and see if they have some insight.
Although neither Hal or John at IPT thinks it is the TC at this point but there could always be a '1st time.'
John at IPT seems willing to work with us if the trans is the cause... I want to narrow it down to that by getting the turbine rev / output rev speeds in 4th to make sure that is the cause before going thru the expense of having the trans pulled and re-installed again if it is not the case.
I have been searching my butt on 'dyno anomalies' and have seen many different causes of fluctuations... This also looks very similar to misfires, I sent Hal a email on that to see if there is any misfiring going on as well.
I've had some weird issues in the past as well... and looking at Canadian over at Driver he did as well. Different trans builder- but still issues shifting. I'm going through my old Driver thread because there are some finer points to tuning Autos that some guys- even guys like Hal, overlook since heavy tunes on Autos aren't as common.
http://g35driver.com/forums/6135274-post495.html
I'm sifting through my pages... and will post pertinent links.
THIS was the one I was looking for- from Djamps.
http://g35driver.com/forums/6135748-post501.html
Another good one from RCDash...
http://g35driver.com/forums/6189434-post539.html
http://g35driver.com/forums/6135274-post495.html
I'm sifting through my pages... and will post pertinent links.
THIS was the one I was looking for- from Djamps.
http://g35driver.com/forums/6135748-post501.html
Another good one from RCDash...
http://g35driver.com/forums/6189434-post539.html
Last edited by Eno; Dec 20, 2013 at 06:46 AM.
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Thanks Eno, I will go through those and take a look.
It's looking like there is some pretty good misfiring going on related to a cam/crank sink error... They replaced the cam/crank sensors to no avail and tried 2 other Haltech units to rule that out.
I talked to Andre at Edge Racing and he is pretty confident it is not the TQ converter or the trans at this point.
Hal is going to start looking into the wiring next as I had them do a wire tuck on the harness that crosses over in front of the Cosworth.
It's looking like there is some pretty good misfiring going on related to a cam/crank sink error... They replaced the cam/crank sensors to no avail and tried 2 other Haltech units to rule that out.
I talked to Andre at Edge Racing and he is pretty confident it is not the TQ converter or the trans at this point.
Hal is going to start looking into the wiring next as I had them do a wire tuck on the harness that crosses over in front of the Cosworth.
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As far as I know it is shifting thru the gears nice and crisp and there is no 'slipping' issues there. It's only when they get into it at full throttle that they are seeing the issue pop up during the 4th gear pulls... It is idling and cruising good...
Updated the 1st post with the 3.12 pulley dyno run which is still low reading for the build but is actually better than the pulls w/ the 2.87 which is counter intuitive. Something is going on with gremlins and I am confident in their abilities and Eddie is a master w/ the VQ so I am still optimistic with the final outcome...
I am a patient person and have a daily driver but were over 10 months into this build now and I am missing her.
Updated the 1st post with the 3.12 pulley dyno run which is still low reading for the build but is actually better than the pulls w/ the 2.87 which is counter intuitive. Something is going on with gremlins and I am confident in their abilities and Eddie is a master w/ the VQ so I am still optimistic with the final outcome...
I am a patient person and have a daily driver but were over 10 months into this build now and I am missing her.
Last edited by Triji; Dec 20, 2013 at 09:07 PM.
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From: paradise
All shops drag their feet
tried to get my 5at switched but can't seem to make it happen....shops take in work when they should finish what's on their plate first...
I'd rather be told to wait a month or 2 then bring it in and we'll get right to it than sit in the shop on a lift gathering dust....(been there, done that...3 times.
Hope things get better for you soon bro...I FEEL YOUR PAIN!
Last edited by ogiehooker; Dec 20, 2013 at 09:27 PM. Reason: sp
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Yeah... Hoping for some good news soon. I emailed them on Thurs and have not heard back yet and have not called for an update for a couple of weeks now to give them a chance to diagnose and not come across as being pushy or impatient.
I would like however for them to contact me at least once a week or so, so I know that she is getting attention and love and that they are trouble shooting the issues at hand.
I hate feeling like I am pestering them when I only want to be kept informed on the progress. Especially with the amount of money currently invested which may I say, is quite substantial.
I would like however for them to contact me at least once a week or so, so I know that she is getting attention and love and that they are trouble shooting the issues at hand.
I hate feeling like I am pestering them when I only want to be kept informed on the progress. Especially with the amount of money currently invested which may I say, is quite substantial.
Last edited by Triji; Dec 20, 2013 at 10:02 PM.
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pestering
I hear ya dog, but I gave up on "feeling like I am pestering someone"..
I have spent 100g or so and I don't give a rats azz about hearing peoples excuses anymore, (which are a dime a dozen)..
NOBODY in this industry appears to want to work (or America for that matter)...I learned if you aren't going to do it yourself, don't do it cause you will forever be dependent on someone else...either gotta learn or get out....I went back to motorcycles now cause they are so cheap and can run 9 sec 1/4 on 10 year old bikes for 3000-4000....PLUS you don't have to wait behind anybody in traffic...EVER!
I'm sick of my build...my Z will become something to drive when I don't want to drive one of my bikes (cold) and I'll use my other DD for the rain.....
sucks huh? I'm there wid ya bro...hope you get it figured out...I may need some of that valuable info when/if Tim ever gets around to tuning my IPT 5 AT.
I have spent 100g or so and I don't give a rats azz about hearing peoples excuses anymore, (which are a dime a dozen)..
NOBODY in this industry appears to want to work (or America for that matter)...I learned if you aren't going to do it yourself, don't do it cause you will forever be dependent on someone else...either gotta learn or get out....I went back to motorcycles now cause they are so cheap and can run 9 sec 1/4 on 10 year old bikes for 3000-4000....PLUS you don't have to wait behind anybody in traffic...EVER!
I'm sick of my build...my Z will become something to drive when I don't want to drive one of my bikes (cold) and I'll use my other DD for the rain.....
sucks huh? I'm there wid ya bro...hope you get it figured out...I may need some of that valuable info when/if Tim ever gets around to tuning my IPT 5 AT.
Last edited by ogiehooker; Dec 20, 2013 at 09:59 PM. Reason: sp
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If your using the OEM ECU perhaps this could be involved. Note the affected RPM range.
http://tinyurl.com/ms8bxey
http://tinyurl.com/ms8bxey
Maaaan does this ever take me back.
On the flip side, however- I think it's important to note that between three of us here in roughly the same boat (at one point in time or another between Trij, me and Ogie) we've had experience with 6 different shops- some good and at least two really, really bad ones...
One thing they seem to have in common is that updates can be hard to come by. We are / were all emotionally invested in seeing a build succeed- for financial reasons and closure reasons (for the love of god be OVER already!)... and everything in between.
For us it's emotional- for them it's just business... We all put down substantial sums (though I think oogie wins this one)- but it's not like we threw money at them and they stuffed it in their pocket... there's a lot of work on their part.
Other people throw money at them as well... and they have obligations to those customers. I imagine it's a real balancing act-
For us, every day is a day not only without that money but also without our cherished property. For them... it's homework- sometimes it's fun homework, other times it's that crappy English essay on Shakespeare.
I dealt with 3 shops... 1 of which was really, really bad (Progressive Auto, Victoria BC). Paradoxically, they were probably the best at keeping in touch.
Intec out of Kent, WA was a busier shop and there were definitely lulls in communication but generally that was when the build was held up or had significantly slowed. They kept me in the loop with significant developments but I tried really hard to learn what I could but gave them some room to maneuver.
MNR was more local to me but even still I occasionally fell off the radar... head over there to get some work done and they have 20 cars either in the bay or lined up outside. Sometimes certain conditions need to line up before a series of cars gets fixed... but that may take a week. Maybe things are delayed and it's two weeks. In the meantime, a slew of other people are happy because another block got dealt with right away...
"Can you bring your car in next week instead?" Sometimes yes, other times no... "Okay, we'll do what we can."
Oogie has had his run ins with GTM and we won't go there- even SFR, who we can all see in his thread is doing magnificent work, drops off the communication.
I guess I'm not really making a point as much as to say it may not feel like the right way- but it's the best we can do.
Up here, we have a testing process that we need to endure for provincial licensing in one of my fields- and none of the available answers in the test are actually "RIGHT." But 1 is better- Kind of reminds of this scenario. Might not be right, but it gets you through.
Don't let it get you down- everyone in this position goes through it and whether it's right or not, it certainly seems to be the norm.
On the flip side, however- I think it's important to note that between three of us here in roughly the same boat (at one point in time or another between Trij, me and Ogie) we've had experience with 6 different shops- some good and at least two really, really bad ones...
One thing they seem to have in common is that updates can be hard to come by. We are / were all emotionally invested in seeing a build succeed- for financial reasons and closure reasons (for the love of god be OVER already!)... and everything in between.
For us it's emotional- for them it's just business... We all put down substantial sums (though I think oogie wins this one)- but it's not like we threw money at them and they stuffed it in their pocket... there's a lot of work on their part.
Other people throw money at them as well... and they have obligations to those customers. I imagine it's a real balancing act-
For us, every day is a day not only without that money but also without our cherished property. For them... it's homework- sometimes it's fun homework, other times it's that crappy English essay on Shakespeare.
I dealt with 3 shops... 1 of which was really, really bad (Progressive Auto, Victoria BC). Paradoxically, they were probably the best at keeping in touch.
Intec out of Kent, WA was a busier shop and there were definitely lulls in communication but generally that was when the build was held up or had significantly slowed. They kept me in the loop with significant developments but I tried really hard to learn what I could but gave them some room to maneuver.
MNR was more local to me but even still I occasionally fell off the radar... head over there to get some work done and they have 20 cars either in the bay or lined up outside. Sometimes certain conditions need to line up before a series of cars gets fixed... but that may take a week. Maybe things are delayed and it's two weeks. In the meantime, a slew of other people are happy because another block got dealt with right away...
"Can you bring your car in next week instead?" Sometimes yes, other times no... "Okay, we'll do what we can."
Oogie has had his run ins with GTM and we won't go there- even SFR, who we can all see in his thread is doing magnificent work, drops off the communication.
I guess I'm not really making a point as much as to say it may not feel like the right way- but it's the best we can do.
Up here, we have a testing process that we need to endure for provincial licensing in one of my fields- and none of the available answers in the test are actually "RIGHT." But 1 is better- Kind of reminds of this scenario. Might not be right, but it gets you through.
Don't let it get you down- everyone in this position goes through it and whether it's right or not, it certainly seems to be the norm.
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Shops
My issue is time frame...I just cant see for the life of me why it should take a year to do much of anything even completely rebuild a car from ground up..there is really no way to hold anyone accountable from 3000 miles away...if you can't find a good local shop ur screwed...
I guess the lesson to be learned is if you can't or aren't willing to do the MAJORITY of the work yourself, don't get involved...in ANYTHING!
You never want to be dependent on anyone for anything if possible...that's what sucks...no recourse ..I have tried all types of motivational techniques including a 1000 dollar bonus, yelling and screaming, and being patient..NONE produces any more effect than the other which is ZERO....they gotcha by the ***** and they know it...unless you have a tow truck to threaten to come get your car, and a place to send it to, your outa luck....
I like your rational response Eno since I have the the kick em in the ***** response...helps me calm down! LOL...we'll all be dead one day and it won't have mattered....
Cheer up trij, it REALLY isn't the end of the world, even though it feels like it..
SUGGESTION: buy a used 1000-1400cc sportbike for cheap and get an adrenalin rush that way until ur car is finished...its my little tranquilizer...LOL!
I guess the lesson to be learned is if you can't or aren't willing to do the MAJORITY of the work yourself, don't get involved...in ANYTHING!
You never want to be dependent on anyone for anything if possible...that's what sucks...no recourse ..I have tried all types of motivational techniques including a 1000 dollar bonus, yelling and screaming, and being patient..NONE produces any more effect than the other which is ZERO....they gotcha by the ***** and they know it...unless you have a tow truck to threaten to come get your car, and a place to send it to, your outa luck....
I like your rational response Eno since I have the the kick em in the ***** response...helps me calm down! LOL...we'll all be dead one day and it won't have mattered....
Cheer up trij, it REALLY isn't the end of the world, even though it feels like it..
SUGGESTION: buy a used 1000-1400cc sportbike for cheap and get an adrenalin rush that way until ur car is finished...its my little tranquilizer...LOL!
Last edited by ogiehooker; Dec 21, 2013 at 08:30 AM. Reason: sp
Damn Triji, Im feelin your pain also right now. All this money and time into these cars we should already be able to beat them up with out problems..Im still waiting to hear back from my shop about my fuel issues to see if the twin pump I got from CJM set me straight..
At this Point!
Your Car should have TOP Priority.
Dynosty should be working on your car all day, every day in till its done, and Done Right!
You need to make sure that Dynosty understands this.
Hopefully you held back a big chunk of money, but I don't think so.
Always hold back at least 50% of total. No matter what they say.
Then they will want to finish the Job to get Paid.
Now it's TIME, for You to Become a PAIN IN THEIR A_SS.
Call Dynosty EVERY DAY to get Update, and do not feel bad about doing so.
Your Car should have TOP Priority.
Dynosty should be working on your car all day, every day in till its done, and Done Right!
You need to make sure that Dynosty understands this.
Hopefully you held back a big chunk of money, but I don't think so.
Always hold back at least 50% of total. No matter what they say.
Then they will want to finish the Job to get Paid.
Now it's TIME, for You to Become a PAIN IN THEIR A_SS.
Call Dynosty EVERY DAY to get Update, and do not feel bad about doing so.
Attention Dynosty
Attention Dynosty…….
Perhaps it is Time for You to Chime in here.
Many fourm members are wondering whats going on, and just why this Job is taking so long.
Perhaps it is Time for You to Chime in here.
Many fourm members are wondering whats going on, and just why this Job is taking so long.
Last edited by OldManZ350; Jan 23, 2014 at 06:11 PM.
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Wish I had some updates to share but at this time I just don't... Hoping to hear something soon...
Been trying to stay off forums because it just makes me anxious about the time this is taking...
It will be exactly one year she has been gone in nine days... That's kinda a long time.
Been trying to stay off forums because it just makes me anxious about the time this is taking...
It will be exactly one year she has been gone in nine days... That's kinda a long time.
Art, I feel for You!
When it comes time to settle you final bill, they need to give you "One Big Fat Discount", because it has taken so very very long. I'm sure you'll need to tell them you want and expect one.
Their is just no excuse for it taking "One Whole Year"
TimRod
When it comes time to settle you final bill, they need to give you "One Big Fat Discount", because it has taken so very very long. I'm sure you'll need to tell them you want and expect one.
Their is just no excuse for it taking "One Whole Year"
TimRod
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I would consider cutting my losses and bringing it home. If they knew what to do it likely would have been fixed by now. It obviously isn't a priority there. Surely we have some capable people here in the valley.