selecting cams to match with sound performance tt kit
I spoke with Jim Wolf a couple of years ago, and he indicated that the cams were designed for 7200 rpm. He was concerned that going much beyond that MAY result in the buckets separating from the lobes after peak lift. I have pushed it to 7500 and have not seen any ill effects so far. But JWT is the manufacturer, and probably wants to be on the safe side to avoid potential warranty issues if something does go wrong.
Last edited by ttg35fort; Feb 2, 2015 at 11:03 AM.
(Cont.)
There is one thing that may be in the Kelford's favor with regard to idle, the 272 duration cam's (T-189-B unless they changed their part numbers since the last time I looked) exhaust lobe center is about 116 deg. before top dead center (TDC), whereas the C8's is 112 deg. That means that with the Kelfords there is less overlap at TDC. Combined with the lower lift, the dynamic compression will be a little higher with the Kelfords than with the C8s. We measured my dynamic compression with the C8s to be somewhere around 7.7:1 (again, my static compression is 8.5:1). It is my understanding that the low dynamic compression makes the idle a bit rougher and harder to dial in.
If you are going to stick with the F-Con for a while, and you want 272 duration cams, I would go with the Kelford cams (or BC cams). If you will be changing to the Haltech very soon, then it depends on how high you will be revving the motor. The lower lift Kelfords and BCs will be able to rev higher before the buckets launch off of the lobes. I have heard of people taking them to 8500 rpm, though I don't know what they are actually spec'd for. As Resmarted stated, beyond 8000 rpm is rough territory for a VQ. If you won't be going over about 7200 rpm, the C8s flow very well.
There is one thing that may be in the Kelford's favor with regard to idle, the 272 duration cam's (T-189-B unless they changed their part numbers since the last time I looked) exhaust lobe center is about 116 deg. before top dead center (TDC), whereas the C8's is 112 deg. That means that with the Kelfords there is less overlap at TDC. Combined with the lower lift, the dynamic compression will be a little higher with the Kelfords than with the C8s. We measured my dynamic compression with the C8s to be somewhere around 7.7:1 (again, my static compression is 8.5:1). It is my understanding that the low dynamic compression makes the idle a bit rougher and harder to dial in.
If you are going to stick with the F-Con for a while, and you want 272 duration cams, I would go with the Kelford cams (or BC cams). If you will be changing to the Haltech very soon, then it depends on how high you will be revving the motor. The lower lift Kelfords and BCs will be able to rev higher before the buckets launch off of the lobes. I have heard of people taking them to 8500 rpm, though I don't know what they are actually spec'd for. As Resmarted stated, beyond 8000 rpm is rough territory for a VQ. If you won't be going over about 7200 rpm, the C8s flow very well.
But both the kelford's and BC 3's are 11.59 mm lift. As you said, this is pretty much the most you want to run without having to do more work to the heads.
And kelfords are a good product but considering the time to get them, just not worth it. Especially that OP is California, drop shipping from BC is basically instant in my experience (a business day or two from El Cajon CA to anywhere else in CA).
proefi. its got a pretty sweet idle spark PID that helps since the stock ecu is still controlling the TB, bc I am too lazy to tune it on the Proefi. Idle is 1100rpms. nice and smooth, but only pull 15"hg.
He totally is lol. But I'm a ricer and believe my car can fly over buildings and road obstacles, so I don't need braykehs
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**** man. Your posts are horrible to understand.
First off, what is this about having the short block done but you don't have the girdle yet.
You are gonna fawk yourself if you put the girdle on after everything's assembled. You will need the girdle on for line hone, and for bearing clearance/crank sizing. If you put it on later, it will probably yield a different squash on the main caps and you're fawked.
Next up. Camshafts. I wanted 288's too, but they're totally not necessary. Not only that, but from what Hal told me they will drive like a pig on the street, and are too peaky. The BC stage 3 272's are basically the same as the kelford's. I didn't want to wait for kelford's so I just got some BC stage 3's and springs drop shipped. You don't really need anything more than 264 to have better than most import head flow. With BC stage 3's you have 272 degrees, 11.6mm lift (which is more than what you can get even on a built up 2jz), and quite a nice sized valve (bigger than even built 2jz's).
288's just shift the band to the right even more, which is a good thing for making power (less load on rods because more power strokes at higher rpm per hp basically), BUT past 8k you're heading into rough territory for a v6.
You have a knife edged crank, which could have cost a pretty penny (or it could have been a hack job done by a dumb%%%) but that does little to calm down crank vibrations. Even at 8k you'll need an ATI super damper beyond just the girdle + arp mains. Next 8k is about as hard as you want to reliably push the rev-up oil pump. Push it further, and you'll get a cracked oil drive gear. That means NO OIL PRESSURE; catastrophic failure.
So to remedy that, you need a dry sump. So 288's could be worth it, if you're running up and above 8k, probably to 9k. But the extra 6-8 grand just for the engine... is it really worth it? Especially considering all the internals won't last as long? And the valve train you'd need for that too... You'd need the 288 cams, upgraded springs, probably some machine work for clearances (been a while since I wanted to buy them, only if they're more than 11.59mm lift), upgraded valves, probably would want to do some porting/polishing... Dry sump, and then yes you'd have a ton of gains up top.
You could go for a nismo oil pump, or machine a rev up pump, but I bet past 8500, theres plenty of aeration in the gear pump... But even that's about another grand.
Oh and you'd possibly need new main bearings... Because you didn't have the girdle on when you had it assembled...
So yeah you could do 288's. But there's nothing wrong with 272's. They'll be way more street-able (better midrange for the street), and they already have way way way better specs on our heads than most comparable import engines; 2jz's, ej25's, 4g63's, rb26, 1jz's, sr20's, ka24de's, ca18dets blah blah (leave out vtec bs). Our heads with a simple spring and cam, out flow all those. That's the true beauty most people completely overlook about the 350z/vq35. Hell even Scott Porter who ran 6.XX at 200+mph who uses billet vq35 blocks, uses reworked vq35 heads. Yeah they're seriously tooled up, but that engine makes real power.
If you think idle is important, cool. My 272's with a 4" straight pipe and the single turbo sounds plenty badass. Even the LEO's who came by on a noise ordinance complaint, asked to hear it, and thought it was cool. (before they told me not to take it out on the street or start it up anymore).
First off, what is this about having the short block done but you don't have the girdle yet.
You are gonna fawk yourself if you put the girdle on after everything's assembled. You will need the girdle on for line hone, and for bearing clearance/crank sizing. If you put it on later, it will probably yield a different squash on the main caps and you're fawked.
Next up. Camshafts. I wanted 288's too, but they're totally not necessary. Not only that, but from what Hal told me they will drive like a pig on the street, and are too peaky. The BC stage 3 272's are basically the same as the kelford's. I didn't want to wait for kelford's so I just got some BC stage 3's and springs drop shipped. You don't really need anything more than 264 to have better than most import head flow. With BC stage 3's you have 272 degrees, 11.6mm lift (which is more than what you can get even on a built up 2jz), and quite a nice sized valve (bigger than even built 2jz's).
288's just shift the band to the right even more, which is a good thing for making power (less load on rods because more power strokes at higher rpm per hp basically), BUT past 8k you're heading into rough territory for a v6.
You have a knife edged crank, which could have cost a pretty penny (or it could have been a hack job done by a dumb%%%) but that does little to calm down crank vibrations. Even at 8k you'll need an ATI super damper beyond just the girdle + arp mains. Next 8k is about as hard as you want to reliably push the rev-up oil pump. Push it further, and you'll get a cracked oil drive gear. That means NO OIL PRESSURE; catastrophic failure.
So to remedy that, you need a dry sump. So 288's could be worth it, if you're running up and above 8k, probably to 9k. But the extra 6-8 grand just for the engine... is it really worth it? Especially considering all the internals won't last as long? And the valve train you'd need for that too... You'd need the 288 cams, upgraded springs, probably some machine work for clearances (been a while since I wanted to buy them, only if they're more than 11.59mm lift), upgraded valves, probably would want to do some porting/polishing... Dry sump, and then yes you'd have a ton of gains up top.
You could go for a nismo oil pump, or machine a rev up pump, but I bet past 8500, theres plenty of aeration in the gear pump... But even that's about another grand.
Oh and you'd possibly need new main bearings... Because you didn't have the girdle on when you had it assembled...
So yeah you could do 288's. But there's nothing wrong with 272's. They'll be way more street-able (better midrange for the street), and they already have way way way better specs on our heads than most comparable import engines; 2jz's, ej25's, 4g63's, rb26, 1jz's, sr20's, ka24de's, ca18dets blah blah (leave out vtec bs). Our heads with a simple spring and cam, out flow all those. That's the true beauty most people completely overlook about the 350z/vq35. Hell even Scott Porter who ran 6.XX at 200+mph who uses billet vq35 blocks, uses reworked vq35 heads. Yeah they're seriously tooled up, but that engine makes real power.
If you think idle is important, cool. My 272's with a 4" straight pipe and the single turbo sounds plenty badass. Even the LEO's who came by on a noise ordinance complaint, asked to hear it, and thought it was cool. (before they told me not to take it out on the street or start it up anymore).
Lol @ Resmart
Naah, I ment to say I want the IP gurgle you guys be sporting. The stock aluminum version I wouldn't dare use My stock.
Far as the pump yes I have the revup pump I wanted to do the mod but couldn't locate the thread. I thought of the nismo pump as it is on sale right now and it still isn't too late. 2 add on.
ATI damper as you mentioned I was looking into that for support for my bottom end, knife edge crank. (Done @ MTI racing 🏁 )
(The U.R. pulley would've made an excellent choice ) Lol just joking on that.
Yes I don't want nothing more than 8k
Tomei con rods rated 1000hp.
9k all day but I won't be revving that high.
Knife edge crank hope to get some weight loss.
The bottom end its bolted and secured with Arp Studs./mains aswell
The tomei rods comes with arp l19 so + to that.
The heads I'm using the l19kit of course for clamping and the headlift issues from back in the day. Also will be doing the H.R. cooling MOD.
The heads are stage 3 with bc 1mm oversized valves pnp 5 angle job bowl work and include bc springs and retainers.
The pistons are coated and I was going to do the same for the heads and the material coat EM.
The reason in thought of 288's is because that was an option brought up yes all ptv clearances must be set along with ccl ect.
I have the jwt cam sprockets for the exhaust side and would like to utilize these in my build, was also looking at getting the
Nismo vtc pulleys to add along. But since the 288"s are too much and seem over kill you brought me back to reality from dream world lol.
Resmart. Thx again.
So would it hurt if I do the Tomei 280"s or stick to what's proven
Bc"s 272 or Tomei 272" or Tomei 280"s yes I still love Tomei lol.
But being that the material in my heads are all bc I rather stick with they stage 3 272"s. Heck I'm not even sure if the Tomei cam profile would be adequate with bc. I have to check the specs on they cam profile.
272"s or them 280"s ;-)
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(Cont.)
There is one thing that may be in the Kelford's favor with regard to idle, the 272 duration cam's (T-189-B unless they changed their part numbers since the last time I looked) exhaust lobe center is about 116 deg. before top dead center (TDC), whereas the C8's is 112 deg. That means that with the Kelfords there is less overlap at TDC. Combined with the lower lift, the dynamic compression will be a little higher with the Kelfords than with the C8s. We measured my dynamic compression with the C8s to be somewhere around 7.7:1 (again, my static compression is 8.5:1). It is my understanding that the low dynamic compression makes the idle a bit rougher and harder to dial in.
If you are going to stick with the F-Con for a while, and you want 272 duration cams, I would go with the Kelford cams (or BC cams). If you will be changing to the Haltech very soon, then it depends on how high you will be revving the motor. The lower lift Kelfords and BCs will be able to rev higher before the buckets launch off of the lobes. I have heard of people taking them to 8500 rpm, though I don't know what they are actually spec'd for. As Resmarted stated, beyond 8000 rpm is rough territory for a VQ. If you won't be going over about 7200 rpm, the C8s flow very well.
There is one thing that may be in the Kelford's favor with regard to idle, the 272 duration cam's (T-189-B unless they changed their part numbers since the last time I looked) exhaust lobe center is about 116 deg. before top dead center (TDC), whereas the C8's is 112 deg. That means that with the Kelfords there is less overlap at TDC. Combined with the lower lift, the dynamic compression will be a little higher with the Kelfords than with the C8s. We measured my dynamic compression with the C8s to be somewhere around 7.7:1 (again, my static compression is 8.5:1). It is my understanding that the low dynamic compression makes the idle a bit rougher and harder to dial in.
If you are going to stick with the F-Con for a while, and you want 272 duration cams, I would go with the Kelford cams (or BC cams). If you will be changing to the Haltech very soon, then it depends on how high you will be revving the motor. The lower lift Kelfords and BCs will be able to rev higher before the buckets launch off of the lobes. I have heard of people taking them to 8500 rpm, though I don't know what they are actually spec'd for. As Resmarted stated, beyond 8000 rpm is rough territory for a VQ. If you won't be going over about 7200 rpm, the C8s flow very well.
And keep the fcon for my g35 .
So what would be considered a decent rev limited for a boosted z. Or g well vq35de.
8k is my goal of maximum rpm but will bite the bullet and take 7.8k
thanks for you input man 👍👍✌
Last edited by juelz86z3303; Feb 10, 2015 at 12:39 PM. Reason: 😰
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(Cont.)
There is one thing that may be in the Kelford's favor with regard to idle, the 272 duration cam's (T-189-B unless they changed their part numbers since the last time I looked) exhaust lobe center is about 116 deg. before top dead center (TDC), whereas the C8's is 112 deg. That means that with the Kelfords there is less overlap at TDC. Combined with the lower lift, the dynamic compression will be a little higher with the Kelfords than with the C8s. We measured my dynamic compression with the C8s to be somewhere around 7.7:1 (again, my static compression is 8.5:1). It is my understanding that the low dynamic compression makes the idle a bit rougher and harder to dial in.
If you are going to stick with the F-Con for a while, and you want 272 duration cams, I would go with the Kelford cams (or BC cams). If you will be changing to the Haltech very soon, then it depends on how high you will be revving the motor. The lower lift Kelfords and BCs will be able to rev higher before the buckets launch off of the lobes. I have heard of people taking them to 8500 rpm, though I don't know what they are actually spec'd for. As Resmarted stated, beyond 8000 rpm is rough territory for a VQ. If you won't be going over about 7200 rpm, the C8s flow very well.
There is one thing that may be in the Kelford's favor with regard to idle, the 272 duration cam's (T-189-B unless they changed their part numbers since the last time I looked) exhaust lobe center is about 116 deg. before top dead center (TDC), whereas the C8's is 112 deg. That means that with the Kelfords there is less overlap at TDC. Combined with the lower lift, the dynamic compression will be a little higher with the Kelfords than with the C8s. We measured my dynamic compression with the C8s to be somewhere around 7.7:1 (again, my static compression is 8.5:1). It is my understanding that the low dynamic compression makes the idle a bit rougher and harder to dial in.
If you are going to stick with the F-Con for a while, and you want 272 duration cams, I would go with the Kelford cams (or BC cams). If you will be changing to the Haltech very soon, then it depends on how high you will be revving the motor. The lower lift Kelfords and BCs will be able to rev higher before the buckets launch off of the lobes. I have heard of people taking them to 8500 rpm, though I don't know what they are actually spec'd for. As Resmarted stated, beyond 8000 rpm is rough territory for a VQ. If you won't be going over about 7200 rpm, the C8s flow very well.
And keep the fcon for my g35 .
So what would be considered a decent rev limited for a boosted z. Or g well vq35de.
8k is my goal of maximum rpm nothing more I but will bite the bullet and take 7.8k
So im trying to building the heads to support it. 8k 8k
Thx for your input
👍👍
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Also what do you think of their 280's I was going to run their springs looked into the specs and got spooked cuz spring rate came pretty close to the lift of cam profile...
Tomei FTW
Last edited by juelz86z3303; Feb 10, 2015 at 12:57 PM. Reason: word
Yea I'm boosted I have procharger. Honestly the 272 is as big as I would want to go and still drive it. It's really a pain to drive around town with the cams and blower.
I'm getting ready to build a engine identical to mine with the same tomei 272s and springs for my gf's Z and it will be tt with gt2871r
I have eagle rods and weiseco pistons with the increase in piston gap and ring gap. Also wiseco upgraded wrist pins (for over 600hp). Dynosty basically told me mechanically the short block doesn't have a "rev limit". And realistically it shouldn't with the girdle and the light eagles. The oil pump on the other hand doesn't quite work that way. But 8.5k is totally do able on my setup.
Again I'd recommend the BC stage 3's over tomei. Tomei has that cool factor, but they're also rb26 specialists... Not really vq35 specialists. I'd be interested to look at the tomei cam card info. The BC stuff comes in any form you want, like turbo or NA spec.
There are two mods that come to mind if you want to go high rpm and do something different. I'd get a nismo intake cam gear, it has more advance than the stock one, quite a bit more, so you should be able to find a bit more power up top. And second is the nismo oil pump, or a machined rev up pump. If you do some searching theres a good thread on here talking about what causes our oil pumps to fail (non HR oil pumps). Machining isn't very hard to do if you have a good machinist, I wish I had thought of that before hand, but I'll probably take my car out to 8500 on occasion anyway.
Again I'd recommend the BC stage 3's over tomei. Tomei has that cool factor, but they're also rb26 specialists... Not really vq35 specialists. I'd be interested to look at the tomei cam card info. The BC stuff comes in any form you want, like turbo or NA spec.
There are two mods that come to mind if you want to go high rpm and do something different. I'd get a nismo intake cam gear, it has more advance than the stock one, quite a bit more, so you should be able to find a bit more power up top. And second is the nismo oil pump, or a machined rev up pump. If you do some searching theres a good thread on here talking about what causes our oil pumps to fail (non HR oil pumps). Machining isn't very hard to do if you have a good machinist, I wish I had thought of that before hand, but I'll probably take my car out to 8500 on occasion anyway.
I have eagle rods and weiseco pistons with the increase in piston gap and ring gap. Also wiseco upgraded wrist pins (for over 600hp). Dynosty basically told me mechanically the short block doesn't have a "rev limit". And realistically it shouldn't with the girdle and the light eagles. The oil pump on the other hand doesn't quite work that way. But 8.5k is totally do able on my setup.
Again I'd recommend the BC stage 3's over tomei. Tomei has that cool factor, but they're also rb26 specialists... Not really vq35 specialists. I'd be interested to look at the tomei cam card info. The BC stuff comes in any form you want, like turbo or NA spec.
There are two mods that come to mind if you want to go high rpm and do something different. I'd get a nismo intake cam gear, it has more advance than the stock one, quite a bit more, so you should be able to find a bit more power up top. And second is the nismo oil pump, or a machined rev up pump. If you do some searching theres a good thread on here talking about what causes our oil pumps to fail (non HR oil pumps). Machining isn't very hard to do if you have a good machinist, I wish I had thought of that before hand, but I'll probably take my car out to 8500 on occasion anyway.
Again I'd recommend the BC stage 3's over tomei. Tomei has that cool factor, but they're also rb26 specialists... Not really vq35 specialists. I'd be interested to look at the tomei cam card info. The BC stuff comes in any form you want, like turbo or NA spec.
There are two mods that come to mind if you want to go high rpm and do something different. I'd get a nismo intake cam gear, it has more advance than the stock one, quite a bit more, so you should be able to find a bit more power up top. And second is the nismo oil pump, or a machined rev up pump. If you do some searching theres a good thread on here talking about what causes our oil pumps to fail (non HR oil pumps). Machining isn't very hard to do if you have a good machinist, I wish I had thought of that before hand, but I'll probably take my car out to 8500 on occasion anyway.
At first look they're set to be a bit looser than the BC stage 3's on valve lash. I'll have to hunt for my cam card. But good post!
EDIT
Wait those aren't thousandths lol prooobbably metric. I'll be back after I take a much needed nap and find that cam card lmao
EDIT
Wait those aren't thousandths lol prooobbably metric. I'll be back after I take a much needed nap and find that cam card lmao
Last edited by Resmarted; Feb 10, 2015 at 02:26 PM.
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Yea I'm boosted I have procharger. Honestly the 272 is as big as I would want to go and still drive it. It's really a pain to drive around town with the cams and blower.
I'm getting ready to build a engine identical to mine with the same tomei 272s and springs for my gf's Z and it will be tt with gt2871r
I'm getting ready to build a engine identical to mine with the same tomei 272s and springs for my gf's Z and it will be tt with gt2871r
👍👍👏
Lol.
The Tomei's open the exhaust valve relatively early, resulting in a relatively short overlap at top dead center (at 0 deg. cam phasing), which means they should idle quite well. They won't scavenge that well, but scavenging isn't as important in a turbo motor as it is in a NA motor. In fact, on a turbo motor, if the back pressure is too high on the exhaust side, reversion can sometimes become an issue. This may be why Tomei has chosen to open the exhaust valve relatively early. I'm not sure why they are running lower lift on the exhaust than on the intake, though. Nonetheless, I think they will perform well.
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I have eagle rods and weiseco pistons with the increase in piston gap and ring gap. Also wiseco upgraded wrist pins (for over 600hp). Dynosty basically told me mechanically the short block doesn't have a "rev limit". And realistically it shouldn't with the girdle and the light eagles. The oil pump on the other hand doesn't quite work that way. But 8.5k is totally do able on my setup.
Again I'd recommend the BC stage 3's over tomei. Tomei has that cool factor, but they're also rb26 specialists... Not really vq35 specialists. I'd be interested to look at the tomei cam card info. The BC stuff comes in any form you want, like turbo or NA spec.
There are two mods that come to mind if you want to go high rpm and do something different. I'd get a nismo intake cam gear, it has more advance than the stock one, quite a bit more, so you should be able to find a bit more power up top. And second is the nismo oil pump, or a machined rev up pump. If you do some searching theres a good thread on here talking about what causes our oil pumps to fail (non HR oil pumps). Machining isn't very hard to do if you have a good machinist, I wish I had thought of that before hand, but I'll probably take my car out to 8500 on occasion anyway.
Again I'd recommend the BC stage 3's over tomei. Tomei has that cool factor, but they're also rb26 specialists... Not really vq35 specialists. I'd be interested to look at the tomei cam card info. The BC stuff comes in any form you want, like turbo or NA spec.
There are two mods that come to mind if you want to go high rpm and do something different. I'd get a nismo intake cam gear, it has more advance than the stock one, quite a bit more, so you should be able to find a bit more power up top. And second is the nismo oil pump, or a machined rev up pump. If you do some searching theres a good thread on here talking about what causes our oil pumps to fail (non HR oil pumps). Machining isn't very hard to do if you have a good machinist, I wish I had thought of that before hand, but I'll probably take my car out to 8500 on occasion anyway.
I wanted to do the Tomei but again the factor of being an all motor cam had me questioning my self. Lol cool I'll order them this Friday and should hit the shop in no time both are in sandieago
So what this about the rev up pump I understood what was being said that we need to machine them gears but wasn't sure , if possible can you provide the link.
I have no problem searching just I'm using my 📱 phone
Last edited by juelz86z3303; Feb 11, 2015 at 06:01 AM.
The Tomei's open the exhaust valve relatively early, resulting in a relatively short overlap at top dead center (at 0 deg. cam phasing), which means they should idle quite well. They won't scavenge that well, but scavenging isn't as important in a turbo motor as it is in a NA motor. In fact, on a turbo motor, if the back pressure is too high on the exhaust side, reversion can sometimes become an issue. This may be why Tomei has chosen to open the exhaust valve relatively early. I'm not sure why they are running lower lift on the exhaust than on the intake, though. Nonetheless, I think they will perform well.
http://youtu.be/LpWPyWx7Htg
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impressive