Why knock-offs aren't as good quality as you think
12-20-2006, 09:06 PM
#41
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Originally Posted by chimmike
last I checked you weren't a mettalurgist 
Yeah, I'm sure you're a professional at being able to tell the difference in quality of materials used. You DO have tons of experience with that, right?
Yeah, I'm sure you're a professional at being able to tell the difference in quality of materials used. You DO have tons of experience with that, right?
Originally Posted by chimmike
Obvious:
1) they're copies. Problem is, they're not exact copies, and no R & D was done on the parts to ensure they were in fact good.
2) They're made in china. Cheap labor=cheap parts.
1) they're copies. Problem is, they're not exact copies, and no R & D was done on the parts to ensure they were in fact good.
2) They're made in china. Cheap labor=cheap parts.
Originally Posted by chimmike
+1. companies will get their products copied, that they spent money on R & D, and they'll decide it's not worth it any longer to make products for a market when they market just buys the cheap copies. They'll stop developing all together. I've seen it happen and it will continue to happen if we don't start acting responsible.
Originally Posted by chimmike
The knock-offs are so cheap they don't have any sort of quality control at all, whatsoever.
Lastly, just answer this one simple question -- have you ever bought anything at Walmart?
I'll be waiting for your answers. Otherwise, I'm raising the:
12-21-2006, 03:37 AM
#42
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Originally Posted by z-u-later
Can you name one company that went out of business due to competitors selling knockoffs of their products?
Again, can you name one company who does not have QC in place and provide proof of that?
Lastly, just answer this one simple question -- have you ever bought anything at Walmart?
Fact is, you are not a professional, and your comment saying "I and I alone will be the judge of what is quality and what is not" is about as ignorant as you can get, because you're NOT a metalurgist, and you're NOT a welder. So tell me, not being a metalurgist or welder, how exactly can you judge what is quality and what is not? When perhaps that $200 header you bought has a 400 (bathroom quality) alloy in it? It still may be shiny and the welds may LOOK good..............................but that doesn't mean shat.
I'll be waiting for your answers. Otherwise, I'm raising the:
[/QUOTE]
12-21-2006, 03:46 AM
#43
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Originally Posted by chimmike
Thanks to speaking with some engineers at PRI, I've got some new info for you guys.
Obviously, knock off parts are cheaper. There are obvious reasons why, and other less obvious reasons why, and why they're bad!
Obvious:
1) they're copies. Problem is, they're not exact copies, and no R & D was done on the parts to ensure they were in fact good.
2) They're made in china. Cheap labor=cheap parts.
Not Obvious:
1) Materials quality: Chinese "stainless" steel, you'll notice, is never numbered. Quality materials used by name brand manufacturers use materials held to strict quality standards. Numbered stainless steel, such as 321, 304, etc. are used in construction. Chinese/Taiwanese, etc. parts badge their products as stainless steel. Problem is, various companies have tested various parts and found the material quality ranging from 321 SS all the way into the 400s (bathroom quality stainless) all in the same length of tubing/steel on a single part! The fact of the matter is, the range of stainless steel quality from China is so huge, that nobody buys steel from china for these reasons.
Also, many times the thickness of the material isn't up to par for the specific use of the part! Thin walled material for turbo manifolds or headers is BAD!
2) Welds: They look good, don't they? But welds don't tell the true story behind the quality of a weld. Many chinese parts are welded twice over. That is, one line of weld is covered by another. With stainless steel parts, many times they use mild steel weld...which will RUST AWAY! The weld quality is horrible, and is suceptible to cracking under heat, which often happens.
3) Fitment. Many, many times, copies of other parts may look exact, but rarely is the fitment as good as the name brand part.
Obviously, knock off parts are cheaper. There are obvious reasons why, and other less obvious reasons why, and why they're bad!
Obvious:
1) they're copies. Problem is, they're not exact copies, and no R & D was done on the parts to ensure they were in fact good.
2) They're made in china. Cheap labor=cheap parts.
Not Obvious:
1) Materials quality: Chinese "stainless" steel, you'll notice, is never numbered. Quality materials used by name brand manufacturers use materials held to strict quality standards. Numbered stainless steel, such as 321, 304, etc. are used in construction. Chinese/Taiwanese, etc. parts badge their products as stainless steel. Problem is, various companies have tested various parts and found the material quality ranging from 321 SS all the way into the 400s (bathroom quality stainless) all in the same length of tubing/steel on a single part! The fact of the matter is, the range of stainless steel quality from China is so huge, that nobody buys steel from china for these reasons.
Also, many times the thickness of the material isn't up to par for the specific use of the part! Thin walled material for turbo manifolds or headers is BAD!
2) Welds: They look good, don't they? But welds don't tell the true story behind the quality of a weld. Many chinese parts are welded twice over. That is, one line of weld is covered by another. With stainless steel parts, many times they use mild steel weld...which will RUST AWAY! The weld quality is horrible, and is suceptible to cracking under heat, which often happens.
3) Fitment. Many, many times, copies of other parts may look exact, but rarely is the fitment as good as the name brand part.
12-21-2006, 04:41 AM
#44
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Originally Posted by chimmike
hotshot performance
Originally Posted by chimmike
nearly EVERY company that manufactures no-name copy parts. If you'd like to prove me otherwise, do so.
Originally Posted by chimmike
Last I checked, they DO sell name brand products at wal-mart.........red herring much?
Originally Posted by chimmike
Fact is, you are not a professional, and your comment saying "I and I alone will be the judge of what is quality and what is not" is about as ignorant as you can get, because you're NOT a metalurgist, and you're NOT a welder.
In all your posts, you have not provided any supporting data about companies making replicas are putting companies making the original product out of business. Yeah, you claim to talk to some engineers . . . big freakin' deal. Post some data. I've asked you several times to post data on some of your claims but again, it's just you spitting out garbage.
Again, I raise the
on you . . .
12-21-2006, 04:44 AM
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Originally Posted by pierced5
Great ventiloquist act, has the PRI engineer pulled his hand out of your a$$?
12-21-2006, 04:55 AM
#46
Who is/was Hotshot Performance? I did a web search, they are not out of business, in fact they say they have been expanding. They state that they have done some kind of merger, have increased manufacturing facilities. So I am forced to call BS on that one Chimmike.
This is the second time in a knockoff thread the anti everything not big name brand has made a false claim, the other being Cwest was closing down due to knockoffs. How much money do people like this cost those companies in lost business? I do know I won't purchase from a company that might fold before they ship my product. Good work starting a false rumor Chimmike, hope you are happy.
A look at the Hotshot Performance web pages show a link attacking OBX and some company called SSautochrome. I followed the links, one was a Honda person *****ing about a piece of sheet turbo manifold from OBX, the other was some company complaining about SSautochrome, AKA XS Power, making a turbo upgrade and using the name they used, Evo 3 GT, wrongly. After reading the web page, it is obvious to me that the company complaining has no legal exclusive right to the name Evo 3 GT. Here is a quote from the page:
Quote:
We investigated and discovered that another company was violating our common law trademark and calling their product by our name “Evo 3 GT.” They knew that they could benefit from the brand recognition we created for our aftermarket Evo 3 GT so they just started using our name. First offense.
We brought to their attention that their use of our name was confusing both our customers, and asked them to stop using our name. They ignored our request. Second offense.
Since they chose to continue to violate our name, they have forced us to put up this web page to expose these people so that our customers will no longer be confused. On this page we will not draw any spurious conclusions, instead will only stick to the undisputable facts and testimoney from their real-life vicitims.
End quote
(By the way, all the misspellings in the quote are from the original, I guess being in legitimate business means "don't use the spell checker")
So some companies are selling junk on ebay? NO WAY! That is sooo hard to believe.
Of course junk is sold there. I saw a post here not long ago about somebody selling a cardboard turbocharger. And some idiot purchased it. So what? A sucker is born every minute.
Turbochargers, turbocharger manifolds are products that I personally would check out very carefully before purchase, not only because they are expensive, but failure can cause serious injury. I think everyone but a 16 year old would have the sense to not buy junk. But you can't protect everyone, witness the cardboard turbocharger. Or Honda people.
As for the trademark issue, if they have a valid claim, they should seek out an attorney, not create some lame a s s web page. That is what I would do, if I had a leg to stand on. If I didn't, and was full of crap, then I would make a web page like they did. I couldn't find out from that web page who exactly was the company that was being copied (or their trademark being used). If you see it, let me know. I might email them and give them some free legal advice.
But the bottom line was: that company, whoever they are, aren't going out of business either. They just are trying to clear up "customer confusion". I think the cheap piece of crap turbo is good for business. When they get the call, they can explain to the idiot how he got conned, and then sell them their superior product. Can't ask for more than that, the competition's customers call you, great stuff. Salesmen standing by for your call!!!!
This is the second time in a knockoff thread the anti everything not big name brand has made a false claim, the other being Cwest was closing down due to knockoffs. How much money do people like this cost those companies in lost business? I do know I won't purchase from a company that might fold before they ship my product. Good work starting a false rumor Chimmike, hope you are happy.
A look at the Hotshot Performance web pages show a link attacking OBX and some company called SSautochrome. I followed the links, one was a Honda person *****ing about a piece of sheet turbo manifold from OBX, the other was some company complaining about SSautochrome, AKA XS Power, making a turbo upgrade and using the name they used, Evo 3 GT, wrongly. After reading the web page, it is obvious to me that the company complaining has no legal exclusive right to the name Evo 3 GT. Here is a quote from the page:
Quote:
We investigated and discovered that another company was violating our common law trademark and calling their product by our name “Evo 3 GT.” They knew that they could benefit from the brand recognition we created for our aftermarket Evo 3 GT so they just started using our name. First offense.
We brought to their attention that their use of our name was confusing both our customers, and asked them to stop using our name. They ignored our request. Second offense.
Since they chose to continue to violate our name, they have forced us to put up this web page to expose these people so that our customers will no longer be confused. On this page we will not draw any spurious conclusions, instead will only stick to the undisputable facts and testimoney from their real-life vicitims.
End quote
(By the way, all the misspellings in the quote are from the original, I guess being in legitimate business means "don't use the spell checker")
So some companies are selling junk on ebay? NO WAY! That is sooo hard to believe.
Of course junk is sold there. I saw a post here not long ago about somebody selling a cardboard turbocharger. And some idiot purchased it. So what? A sucker is born every minute.
Turbochargers, turbocharger manifolds are products that I personally would check out very carefully before purchase, not only because they are expensive, but failure can cause serious injury. I think everyone but a 16 year old would have the sense to not buy junk. But you can't protect everyone, witness the cardboard turbocharger. Or Honda people.
As for the trademark issue, if they have a valid claim, they should seek out an attorney, not create some lame a s s web page. That is what I would do, if I had a leg to stand on. If I didn't, and was full of crap, then I would make a web page like they did. I couldn't find out from that web page who exactly was the company that was being copied (or their trademark being used). If you see it, let me know. I might email them and give them some free legal advice.
But the bottom line was: that company, whoever they are, aren't going out of business either. They just are trying to clear up "customer confusion". I think the cheap piece of crap turbo is good for business. When they get the call, they can explain to the idiot how he got conned, and then sell them their superior product. Can't ask for more than that, the competition's customers call you, great stuff. Salesmen standing by for your call!!!!
12-21-2006, 05:31 AM
#47
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In responce to post #42
http://www.sr20forum.com/showthread....t=hotshot+ssac
http://www.sr20forum.com/showthread....t=hotshot+ssac
http://www.sr20forum.com/showthread....t=hotshot+ssac
need i continue?
hotshot(namebrand)= crap
SS autochrome(hotshot knockoff) =better then the origonal hotshot
and proof that knockoffs work great if you know what your doing:
http://www.sr20forum.com/showthread....ight=budget+VE
http://www.sr20forum.com/showthread....ight=budget+VE
and this was my car. so let me do the honor:
http://www.sr20forum.com/showthread....t=hotshot+ssac
http://www.sr20forum.com/showthread....t=hotshot+ssac
http://www.sr20forum.com/showthread....t=hotshot+ssac
need i continue?
hotshot(namebrand)= crap
SS autochrome(hotshot knockoff) =better then the origonal hotshot
and proof that knockoffs work great if you know what your doing:
http://www.sr20forum.com/showthread....ight=budget+VE
http://www.sr20forum.com/showthread....ight=budget+VE
and this was my car. so let me do the honor:
Last edited by Rev-em-hard; 12-21-2006 at 05:34 AM.
12-21-2006, 10:52 AM
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All i gotta say is Apexi is no longer in the business of developing performance parts. They have found the business as not profitable and instead are going into consumer electronics. HKS and Trust are now also under the bankruptcy protection plan in Japan.
Imitations are illegal when there are copyright and patent infrigments. They are not beneficial to the market and are doing nothing but ripping off consumers.
When it comes to car parts, you'll spend $200 to replace your headlights, but spend under $200 for a vital part of your engine?
For many copies, this is no different than making look a like sugar bayer asprin pills and putting them in a look alike bayer label, with bayer all over the bottle and selling it for 30% of the price.
Imitations are illegal when there are copyright and patent infrigments. They are not beneficial to the market and are doing nothing but ripping off consumers.
When it comes to car parts, you'll spend $200 to replace your headlights, but spend under $200 for a vital part of your engine?
For many copies, this is no different than making look a like sugar bayer asprin pills and putting them in a look alike bayer label, with bayer all over the bottle and selling it for 30% of the price.
Last edited by swifty949; 12-21-2006 at 10:56 AM.
12-21-2006, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by swifty949
but an intake manifold, turbo, or FMIC isn't?
12-21-2006, 12:25 PM
#53
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Originally Posted by z-u-later
I think the discussion is about exhaust systems, not manifolds or headers.
it most definitely applies to manifolds and headers, and suspension (ever do a spring rate or metal quality check on a set of copycat brand springs? If you knew how to interpret the results, you'd never GIVE a set of them away, even to your enemies)
and I knew John at Hotshot (the owner) and spoke with him personally. He hasn't produced a product for his normal market for a long while. I can't remember the last time someone bought a brand new Hotshot turbo. I had a couple hotshot parts brand new back in 01 and 02 and they were great. Never had cracks, etc. With my turbo 91 SE-R I ran either OEM Nissan turbo stuff or upgraded using a custom professionally made manifold by a fabricator with certifications ranging from mild steel to aviation grade titanium and aluminum. I used name brand turbos brand new (after having rebuilt turbos blow seals on me after a month each), etc.
PRI isn't a company with engineers, so while you're trying to be a bigshot, better figure out wtf PRI is before spouting like you're a dumbass who knows.
Apexi in Japan has indeed stopped producing performance parts, they're now strictly on electronics. They're no longer selling IHI turbos reworked, or exhaust, or suspension, for the exact reason listed above.
Recently HKS lowered their prices in order to be more competitive thanks to the knock off parts.
And you've heard of the knock off turbo timers that don't work right? Now that's a brilliant idea. Either buy a $90 name brand turbo timer that WILL work right, or a no-name copy design that will crap out or not work correctly, to save a few bucks.
Last edited by chimmike; 12-21-2006 at 12:27 PM.
12-21-2006, 12:52 PM
#54
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chumpmike, I think the main reason you started this thread is due to the discussion on another thread about the HKS exhaust system and its copycats. But then again, who cares what you have to say . . . you've been called out. Later!
12-21-2006, 01:07 PM
#55
Originally Posted by swifty949
but an intake manifold, turbo, or FMIC isn't?
I personally don't know of any replica intake manifolds or turbos for the Z, so I don't see where it applies, other than companies in Japan and Australia re-badging Garretts and IHIs.
How do you make a replica FMIC? Basically, a FMIC is a air to air core with end tanks welded on. WTF? Does ARC or GReddy or whomever have a patent or copyright on that? Don't think so. If HKS is in bankruptcy, I am in shock, because I don't see how you can charge MSRP of $1600 for that exhaust, do the stupid non-targeted waste of advertising money that they did on it, and go bankrupt. Sounds more like a bad case of Enron-itis. HKS may be many things, but cheap is not one of them. I think of the products that they produce, and two replicas that I heard about come to mind- the recent ebay exhaust (just came out), and the SSQV. I have the original HKS BOV, I had heard of the copy, so I was careful. If that BOV is why they are in bankruptcy, there is some bad mismanagement there at HKS.
Perhaps what we are seeing from Japan is more a case of what we have here, expensive labor, taxes, real estate, over regulated, all that cost money, plus Japan is becoming the land of the old people, less and less people of working age, causing higher and higher wages. Small firms that rely on exports will go under, simple economics. All hard drives used to be manufactured here in the USA, esp. California. That is all gone to my knowledge. This is what happens.
The Apexi turbo timer thing was out and out passing off a copy for the real thing, charging real turbo timer prices for a copy. That is a crime, and Apexi has and had every right to go after the whole chain involved in that, and more power to them. No one here is advocating crime. That is a false flag.
First, Chimmike, you said they (Hotshot Performance) had gone out of business. When I proved that wrong, you say that the guy says he just isn't making anything. Again, go to the web page. He says they are doing great. WTF? Believe your ever changing story or the "NEWS" on the companies web page?
Last edited by gringott; 12-21-2006 at 01:18 PM.
12-21-2006, 01:29 PM
#56
NEWS FROM APEXi
11/1/2006
NEW A'PEXi EVO IX Line-up!
Product: RX6 Turbo Kit (702-M910)
MSRP: $6685
Full ball-bearing center for maximum response, reliability and performance. 500 WHP turbine capacity!
Product: Induction Box (517-M002)
MSRP: $179
The APEXi Induction Box is made of high quality materials. Greatly improves throttle response and has proven to show power gains.
Product: N1 ExV Damper (269AM020)
MSRP: $1590
Full coilover suspension featuring a threaded base for precise ride height adjustment w/high performance upper mount w/32 way ride quality adjustment.
Product: Power Intake (507-M005)
MSRP: $150
Includes air filter element, polished short pipe and all necessary hardware.
Product: N1 EXTi Muffler (161SKM04)
MSRP: $1090
A'PEXi titanium exhaust system w/5-point adjustable tip length to accomidate most areo kits.
PRoduct: Noir Muffler (103BKM04)
MSRP: $599
Subtle matte black finish for those who want the performance without the added attention.
Product: WS II Muffler (115-KM04)
MSRP: $509
Rolled stainless steel tip w/titanium coated piping. Proven performance w/o excessive noise.
Product: N1 Muffler (161-KM04)
MSRP: $649
Classic N1 straight through design. Titanium coated piping.
Product: GT Spec Muffler (171-KM04)
MSRP: $799
The GT Spec is our flag-ship exhaust system for the hard-core race enthusiasts.
Note the date, Chimmike.
Here are the headlines.
2/10/2006 - NEW WS NOIR Exhaust Available
We are pleased to announce that the WS NOIR muffler is available.
4/7/2006 - NEW AFC Neo Released!
NEW Super AFC NEO - Available NOW!
7/10/2006 - We are moving!
8/15/2006 - Gizzmo is Here
(my note: they added automotive electronic products to their lineup from a company in New Zealand. Most likely cheaper wages there. Haha.)
BTW, the About A'Pexi page summed up - founded in 1992, Japan, in the USA for 7 years, the focus of the company is THE AUTOMOBILE.
WTF Chimmike, they have not announced what you are talking about, the most recent news is new turbo products for the EVO!
Again, you seem to be wrong, just a rumor monger out to hurt the innovative companies by malicious rumors about them. Bad, bad, bad.
11/1/2006
NEW A'PEXi EVO IX Line-up!
Product: RX6 Turbo Kit (702-M910)
MSRP: $6685
Full ball-bearing center for maximum response, reliability and performance. 500 WHP turbine capacity!
Product: Induction Box (517-M002)
MSRP: $179
The APEXi Induction Box is made of high quality materials. Greatly improves throttle response and has proven to show power gains.
Product: N1 ExV Damper (269AM020)
MSRP: $1590
Full coilover suspension featuring a threaded base for precise ride height adjustment w/high performance upper mount w/32 way ride quality adjustment.
Product: Power Intake (507-M005)
MSRP: $150
Includes air filter element, polished short pipe and all necessary hardware.
Product: N1 EXTi Muffler (161SKM04)
MSRP: $1090
A'PEXi titanium exhaust system w/5-point adjustable tip length to accomidate most areo kits.
PRoduct: Noir Muffler (103BKM04)
MSRP: $599
Subtle matte black finish for those who want the performance without the added attention.
Product: WS II Muffler (115-KM04)
MSRP: $509
Rolled stainless steel tip w/titanium coated piping. Proven performance w/o excessive noise.
Product: N1 Muffler (161-KM04)
MSRP: $649
Classic N1 straight through design. Titanium coated piping.
Product: GT Spec Muffler (171-KM04)
MSRP: $799
The GT Spec is our flag-ship exhaust system for the hard-core race enthusiasts.
Note the date, Chimmike.
Here are the headlines.
2/10/2006 - NEW WS NOIR Exhaust Available
We are pleased to announce that the WS NOIR muffler is available.
4/7/2006 - NEW AFC Neo Released!
NEW Super AFC NEO - Available NOW!
7/10/2006 - We are moving!
8/15/2006 - Gizzmo is Here
(my note: they added automotive electronic products to their lineup from a company in New Zealand. Most likely cheaper wages there. Haha.)
BTW, the About A'Pexi page summed up - founded in 1992, Japan, in the USA for 7 years, the focus of the company is THE AUTOMOBILE.
WTF Chimmike, they have not announced what you are talking about, the most recent news is new turbo products for the EVO!
Again, you seem to be wrong, just a rumor monger out to hurt the innovative companies by malicious rumors about them. Bad, bad, bad.
12-21-2006, 02:20 PM
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The news i heard about Apexi, Trust and Apexi was from people within the organizations and with friends in Japan that are within the sun pros (publisher of options) organization. For more on Apexi Japan, try typing in www.apexi.co.jp it's no longer there... just go to www.apexi.com what do you see, but a link to Apexera. Their not going to throw their molds and resources away, but thier business focus is now electronics. Apexi stopped doing TAS in 2005 (2006, they showed off electronics), they've cut back on thier motorsports programs and have had a huge shift in personal changes. Correction, by consumer electronics, i had meant automotive electronics, gps systems, car alarms, etc...
Now I didn't see anywhere in this conversation where this is a Z specific related topic. There are plenty of intake manifold copies for 2jz's, sr20's.
Also, have you ever hear of a disco potato? Its a copy of a Garett turbo. There are many instances of imitation product being hawked off as the original, ie, FMIC's, Turbo timers, boost controllers, etc...
I'm not trying to convince you to not buy a copy, it's your perogative. I'm letting people know that there are more risks involved when buying fake. Personally I wouldn't risk cheap product for vital parts of my car, I'd run the risk of paying a lot more later down the line.
I've worked in the industry for 8 years now, so I wouldn't be saying this for rumors sakes, another thing about me is, i will admit where i am wrong.
Now I didn't see anywhere in this conversation where this is a Z specific related topic. There are plenty of intake manifold copies for 2jz's, sr20's.
Also, have you ever hear of a disco potato? Its a copy of a Garett turbo. There are many instances of imitation product being hawked off as the original, ie, FMIC's, Turbo timers, boost controllers, etc...
I'm not trying to convince you to not buy a copy, it's your perogative. I'm letting people know that there are more risks involved when buying fake. Personally I wouldn't risk cheap product for vital parts of my car, I'd run the risk of paying a lot more later down the line.
I've worked in the industry for 8 years now, so I wouldn't be saying this for rumors sakes, another thing about me is, i will admit where i am wrong.
Last edited by swifty949; 12-21-2006 at 02:32 PM.
12-21-2006, 02:29 PM
#59
I had my old eclipse in the bodyshop at the same time as another guy. I had the authentic Bomex kit and this guy ordered the knock off. The kit, uninstalled costed less for him. He ended up paying 2-3x as much as me b/c of all the prep that had to go into his. I was always told "BUY IT NICE OR BUY IT TWICE!"
12-21-2006, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by chimmike
Recently HKS lowered their prices in order to be more competitive thanks to the knock off parts.