Sorry...but I work for Kellogg Co. I make cereal .Just like to give people options and save them a few bucks. WHATS YOUR MOTIVE ??????

 

So BRM makes their headers out of cereal, huh?

... Sorry, I'm stoned

 

I come from a long history of auto racing and dealerships. I have no aftermarket affiliation and I work for Sysco Foods and sell what you make (sort of). My motive is to keep misinformation of the boards and it so happened that your post contained just that.

 

FLY BY Z:
With respect, my good man, I said that with the experience with my car it did not make sense. I put both headers and a cat back on my car, and based on a dyno run before, and after, I lost 10hp and 10lbft of torque. Then I put on the RT high flow cats and got it back (plus 20hp.) The motor ran super lean and had to get it tuned to bring back into a safe operating range for the a/f. I don't care about apocrophyl stories of header changes giving huge gains. On what car with what unit and dyno results? Show us. And manufacturer claimed results are of no use here. It is the lads on the street with the hard results on before and after dyno runs that matter.
It is likely that the results are influenced by the fact that the engine is FI and not NA. But, the important point is that the headers on this car stock are already pretty darn good, as is the catback portion of the exhaust. If there is one component that seems to give the best return for mod on the exhaust it is going to be high flow cats. Dropping $1,300 for headers just does not seem to be cost effective on the set up relative to experience. If our brother wants to do it, or you think it is important, fine, but the numbers are not there.
As for changing the flywheel, I feel that is more return than the exhaust change on my car, but perhaps that is because I am putting more than 350rwhp down through it in third gear at 6000rpm per the dyno, so it gives a chance to really show what it can do. I like it very much, and I suspect that you are also pleased with the results from the drop in almost 24 pounds of flywheel weight from the stock.
Best regards.

 

You say that mods on a FI car are magnified compared to a NA car. I agree.
You say that cats/test pipes will show a larger or more noticeable gain than headers. I agree.
You say that manufacturers claims are worthless. I def. agree.

None of those are an issue with me and you.

You say the flywheel drops 24 lbs. The JWT is 14 lbs and stock is 28. That is 14 lbs. I'll give you a mistype on that one. Easy to do. However, 99% of the cars out there are not FI. Whether a car is FI or not does not matter. It seems logical that the magnification of a flywheel would be the same as the headers (if the headers are not magnified more) from FI. I will still maintain that headers will provide a more noticeable increase in power/performance than 14 lbs off your flywheel. It is not night and day. I did the flywheel because I was doing the clutch in prep for more power. Would I do the flywheel by itself just to do it? No. I am not sure I can tell ANY difference from it. I can tell more difference from a Popcharger if that says anything. Anyways, I don't think I am responsible (plus I'm lazy) for doing a search for you to provide you with reviews of headers from non vendor members. I've been watching what people buy and review for over a year here and have seen only positives about headers. They will go on right after my cams go in. I have no doubt that it will be necessary to have headers in order to realize the power potential my motor might have. I cannot say the same for my flywheel.

 

yeah flywheel makes no difference at all...

hehehe

clicky video link...

http://members.aol.com/performancenismo/tilton.avi

(K&N typhoon / rt cats / nismo exhaust)

 

apples to oranges. that set up is more than a flywheel change. the clutch is also extremely light and the setup is not what i would call streetable.

 

Nice post Eagle1, I agree entirely. Good to have met you at the G meet.

FlybyZ, Eagle1's comments regarding headers are accurate. And, after having met him, I would say he's someone whose opinions are authoritative. If you want to listen to the people who manufacture headers or the people who buy from the manufacturers who don't offer any proof of gains, you're shooting blind and will waste money.

From what I've seen at dynos and considering all the data I could find regarding headers, I've came to the same conclusion as Eagle1 awhile ago. Headers are not a good value modification. If you have plenty of money to burn, go ahead, buy them. But, I challenge you to find independent dynos showing stock and after header installation that show more than 10 hp. The only headers that have a chance of this are long headers that remove cats like the Xerd.

If anyone really wants to consider exhaust modifications, highflow cats or testpipes are the best performance-value option.

 

Hfm, I already agreed that highflow cats or test pipes are a much better value. Have not noticed that I do have a flywheel and do not have headers? I am certain that I can find a dyno that reports 10 HP for headers before you can find a dyno strictly for a flywheel (no deductive logic) that reports over 5 HP. I never said a flywheel is a bad mod, but I maintain that it is not going to give any noticeable improvements over headers. Also, is your post worthless since represent LBMS on this board? Are you biased away from headers? Let's not go there, eh? Also, where do you get the idea that I base my decisions or info on mauf claimed gains. CLEARLY, you have not read the posts. You have offered no information to strengthen any argument one side or the other. I do not doubt that Eagle1 is a good guy and when you meet someone who has a vast amount of knowledge in comparison to yourself, they are always the smartest person you know. That doesn't make them the smartest person everyone knows. Eagle1 and I agree on everything except that a flywheel is a better mod than headers. I have the flywheel and not even you can dispute the fact that there is simply NO perceptable difference. People who have headers report perceptable differences. That is irrefutable information and hard experience from numbers of mod owners, not one man's opinion, Eagle1's or mine.

 

i know hehe

I am fine with it on the streets now.. i LOVE IT!

 

Sorry if I sounded like your decisions were based upon manufacturer claimed gains. But, I'd love to see you find a dyno showing 10 hp gain for a header other than Xerd by a non-manufacturer.

For a flywheel dyno, look here: http://www.nissanperformancemag.com/october03/350z_fly/

I frankly do not believe a flywheel will gain hp like the 7.5 hp chart found above. If anything, it may act in a similar way to a pully but that's about it.

As for representing LBMS, I do not represent them, I have just bought their products and have shared information about their products to others here. The only thing I received for sharing the information is free installation on my testpipes and exhaust, both modifications which I paid for in full.

As for offering information, I posted my opinion about flywheels a while ago here: https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....light=flywheel

I'm very suprised you find no difference with your JWT flywheel. The difference to me is so obvious. Amazing. Don't you find your revs a lot quicker than stock?

Anyway, I did not intend to get into any kind of an argument with you. I just agree with Eagle that a flywheel is a better modification than a header.

 

I wish i lived in CA so I could take a ride in it. It seems pretty cool but I'd hate to be stuck in traffic.

 

Hfm, I hear ya man. 350zSpeedRacer, a mod here, (deja vu) has driven my car and didn't think there was any real difference either. I think (and she thinks) that there is a little difference but it is def. not obvious or drastic or anything close. I have seen that NPM dyno also. It is basically an ad for JWT since they are closely related. How, I don't know, someone said it here. Maybe it isn't true. I can't remember who said it. Anyways, we will agree to disagree. I think they are both relatively minor gainers and the headers in my opinion will gain more, especially on an otherwise modified motor. On a stock motor I would agree that headers don't do much, then again, neither does a flywheel....

 

Ok, so if you were me, what would you do next to your car?

I have the popcharger, Borla dual, I am grounded, I bought the pulley, whats next on the list?

I have a spare plenum that I can get redone, go buy a clutch, high flow cats and headers. Go get the nismo cams? What should I do to get the most out of my car?

 

I would do the high flow cats next. I will PM you with where to go for them in Lewisville. After that I would save (if you need to) money for a plenum, cams, headers and a TS flash at the same time. The only reason I would do those all at once is because the labor involved in doing one also involves the other parts. May as well save some labor money if you can. I can help you with that also. PM sent.

 

I agree with FLY BY Z to go with the high flow cats next. And I agree that you should do the TS reflash of the ECU, and do it at the time that you have finished your last engine mod, so you do not have to do it again later.

We have I think simply agreed to disagree on the prioritization of the header vs the flywheel, but that is fine. Free country and free minds, and in the long run, not much difference, because eventually, we both probably get both, just in different order. Our motivation here is to help you get the best bang for your hard earned buck, but we have different focus.

My focus or perhaps even prejudice is for road performance and not for street light launch. (Not speaking for FLY, just admitting my own preference). Thus, when provided with such a great platform as this car presents, which is ample horsepower and torque and excellent characteristics, one is faced with a lot of different challenges to improve it than one would have with an American V-8 coupe. With so much volume in the cylinders of a low compression engine, serious gains were additively available from Detroit iron. This probably sounds odd from an FI enthusiast, but the hp is only one of several critical factors, and getting the power to the ground and keeping the car in balance is crucial to driving it smoothly, and thus fast, and totally in control. Each driver/owner will likely have penchants for certain mods based on prior experiences, good and bad, and driving emphasis.

The happy truth is that the car delivers in stock form a lot of performance for the dollar. (that was not true with much of what came out of Detroit). That is one of the reasons it is obviously so popular. It also means that it is a bit more difficult to wring out sizeable additional returns with some of the classic aftermarket modifications. (as contrasted to loads of great mods at relatively reasonable prices for American platforms that really make them sing!) It is going to be real tough to get this motor to throw more than an aggregate of 40 additional hp with non FI modifications. And FI does load up about 120 to 140 additional hp in one fell swoop depending on the unit and boost levels.

(There is a whole 'nother world of debate on working off of low compression engines with high boost, and the newer higher compression engines with low boost, but that is for other threads. Suffice to say that the gospel of going low compression with high boost from the last couple of decades is not necessarily the only way to go about it anymore, and we are starting to see some very interesting things with high compression and low boost the last few years).

This is where the bang for the buck tradeoffs get real interesting. IF you go for FI, then you have to do some other work on suspension etc to better handle the power and the performance zone you are going to be operating the car with that power.

If you are going to stay NA, then while additional hp is important (it always is important), you have to reflect on whether putting some of that precious money into an LSD or a new performance clutch and lightweight flywheel isn't going to get you around the track or down the country road more crisply and quickly, than say 3 to 5 hp from a header, or even 10, especially when it is released in a relatively confined portion of the power band. We don't necessarily have the answer to give our brother as an edict that he should follow....just a question to reflect upon and consider before he makes up his own mind.

I will say this in defense of or promotion for headers however........Gee whiz I LOVE the sound it makes with them on there!

So my bounce would be high flow cats and catbacks on the exhaust side, and perhaps ztube/popcharger/plenum on the intake side, and use the header money on drivetrain or suspension mods, including wheels-tires, to get the power down and around the road better.

But as Dennis Miller says, that is just my opinion, I could be wrong!
Cheers.

 

You forgot the, "I don't want to get off on a rant here, but." I agree with your post and that is why my suspension and drivetrain was modified before my motor. I think that preparation and balance is key also (S-Tune replacing Eibachs on the 2nd). However, you got me when you refer to 1/4 mile american iron v8s. That is the school from which I am and there is one way to maximize power potential. That is to improve upon all of the factory's bottlenecks. FI def. will see the manifolds as one and NA, at it's final stages of modding, will also. One way or the other you are going to need headers to make more power. A flywheel is useful and needed on a road course and not so NEEDED on the street but def. useful and fun. Either way, I agree with you and we can def. put this little debate to rest.

 

And so there came upon the valley of modders an ambience of peace and co-existence between the Fly and the Eagle, and all could rest.

Have a great New Years, and a safe one.

 

you too

 

Who has the deal con Crawford headers?