For those of you that have gone to atleast two track days with your Z, how did your brakes hold up? Let me know the details, slow track, highspeed track, oem pads, aftermarket pads, weather, your driving skill etc.

I am curious to know if the OEM Brembos can with stand track days or will I have to upgrade if/when I buy a Z.

 

I went to Laguna Seca (which is supposedly very hard on brakes) with my totally stock Performance model Z (I had somewhere between 6-8K miles on the car at the time). I did two days in a row, but braked a little easier on the second than the first, mainly because I wasn't sure how much I had left in the brakes. There was some slight fade the first day, but the second day I had no fade at all and was only slightly slower (mainly due to heavier traffic).

I recently replaced my rear pads (11,000 miles) with a new set of stocks, but will probably change all four wheels to higher performance pads next time I go to the track. The rears had worn to 3mm, and 2mm is the replacement threshold. I haven't checked the fronts personally, but the guys who checked the rear said that the fronts still had 35-40% left, while the rears had 10-15% - it was actuall 16%, but pretty close. I'll check the fronts for myself this weekend, now that I have seen how easy it is. I would like to get a stoptech 13" front brake upgrade, but currently it is hard to justify the expense.

I would say that if you get a track model, there would be very little reason to upgrade. From my experience, the performance brakes seem to do a decent job, and the track brakes are significantly bigger which should reduce temps quite a bit during track environments. At the most, I'd say you might want a set of track pads, but that's about it.

There's some posts with Stoptech test data that show brake temps after repeated stops from various speeds with the standard brakes, brembo brakes, and stoptech brakes, so you may want to search for that thread for more info.

-D'oh!

 

Hey thanks for the intelligent response, rare these days on most boards.

I always thought that LS was easy on brakes, but what do I know I've never been there. Anyhow thats cool that your brakes held up. I am curious to see if they do with better pads, like the Hawk HP+ which is what I use.

You should always carry a set of extra pads with you, I had to leave a track day early once because I was almost to the backing plate and wanted to be able to get home. Now I always have an extra set of front and rear pads, brake fluid, and oil.

Stoptechs are a nice setup, if I get the Z I may upgrade to them eventually, front and back. BTW, bigger rotors won't reduce temps, they just have the ability to absorb the heat created from agressive pads, think of your rotors as heatsinks.

 

This is my first post on the board, so Hi everyone!

maxrpm,

As long as you're swapping pads at the track, why use the HP+ pads? These are not really the greatest on the track, especially for a relatively heavy car like the Z.

Have you ever tried true track pads, like Hawk Blues? They make a tremendous difference! They take about half a lap to 1 lap to warm up...but once they do they stop like hitting a brick wall. It's almost uncomfortable. They have much better initial bite and are very fade resistant. A quick, hard jab on the pedal and you drop a tremendous amount of speed instantly. Amazing.

On my E30 318is, I use Hawk Blues up front. On the rear I'll use the Blues at really high speed tracks, otherwise I stick with EBC GreenStuffs (because they're cheaper and easier to find). Even without true r-compound tires (Falken Azenis Sports) I can pass just about anyone through the turns because I can brake SO late and then rely on my E30's balance to maintain a lot of speed through the turns. It's lots of fun to embarrass the high hp guys with my lowly 140hp 4-banger!

Emre Kayaalp

 

The pads that came with my brake kit were Ferodo, great on the street usesless on the track and I wore them out before the end of the day.

I switched to Hawk HP+ and I am very happy with them, I can drive them on the street, they don't fade on me and don't eat up my rotors which I have been told the Blues do. But they do make a lot of noise under light braking which is annoying since I live in the city.

Because of the noise I will probably switch to having a street and a track pad, Hawk HPS for the street then switch to the HP+ for the track, I may try the Blues for the track if I like them I'll keep using them. But I am already getting the ABS to kick in with the HP+ so I the Blues may just make it worse, I am running Yokohama AVS S1s.

 

Well, the rotor wear issue is a funny thing. If you drive Hawk Blues or any true racing pad on the street they will absolutely destroy your rotors. They're very harsh when cold. However, once they warm up a bit they are actually more gentle on the rotor than overheated street-oriented pads. I know it sounds strange, but it's true. All pads are designed to work at a specific temp range and if you step outside of that range funny things start to happen!


On the street, I run Hawk HPS up front and EBC GreenStuff at the rear on my BMWs. (Unfortunately, Hawk doesn't make pads to fit most BMW rear calipers anymore.) They are much better street pads than the HP+ in terms of bite, noise, and dust. You'll be happier with them, I think.

Emre

 

Just to add couple cents to this nice discussion:

I have not tried the Z with Brembo's on the track. However, one potential problem area is that the rears are two-piston only. This may be enough, but given the exprience of Do'h, it looks like the rears are being utilized about 2.5 times harder to do their job even though the car is front-biased with 53% - or was it 57%? - and during heavy breaking, depending on suspension setup, about 20-25% weight transfer on to the fronts can be reasonable.

Total speculation on my part, but it seems that rear break upgrade might be a nice thought for the Z. However, if it were me, I would probably just change all four rotors first with, not drilled, but slotted ones; add good break fluid, and change to steel break lines, in addition to proper break pads of your choice. I would imagine this would be the most cost effective way of improving breaking; but then again I have been known to make mistakes when it comes to breaks

One thing I do not agree with is just upgrading the front breaks to 13 or 14"ers and leaving the rears as they are. I can only imagine that that would really leave the rear of the car very light and probably unsettle the rear during hard breaking. I certainly would not want to find that out during Solo-I or DE events

 

Well I've been to exactly two track days with my Z, so I hope my limited experience can help you out. I have the stock Brembo's on my Z and I didn't notice any brake fade at the two tracks I have been to(Buttonwillow and Las Vegas Motor Speedway). I would however change out the stock brake pads because mine are literally falling apart. After inspecting my brake pads after the first track day I noticed the pads are missing big chunks. Especially around the edges. I don't know if this is normal or not. Hope this helps you out.

 

My concern is not the braking ability of the Brembos, I am sure it's good, but how long will the rotors last, do they warp, crack etc during track events. I don't want to have to be replacing rotors every two track days, every ten would be ok for me.

Your wrong in a few of your assumtions. Whiel it's ideal to have a well balanced brake system, you are better off have more brake in the front then having too much brake in the rear, the last thing you want is you rear brakes doing more work, that will upset your more as you trail brake into that 3rd gear right hander.

As for weight transfer, your spring/dampers control that, better brakes in the back will not stop weight transfer to the front of the car.

 

Actually that helps a lot, Buttonwillow as far as I now is very hard on brakes and tires as well, good to know the rotors held up. as for your brake pads get a set just for the track as discussed earlier. Start off with the HP+, once you skills improve (i'm assming your new to lapping) you may want to move up to the Blues, again this is only for the track switch em out for the street.

 

I think you missed my point, I could have written better, but it's ok.

Good luck.

 

I guess I did, please explain, discussion is good.

Regardless it's gonna be trial and error for me, I'd just like to reduce the cost of T&E and learn from other peoples experience, but there doens't seem to be too many people that have brought their Z to the track on a regular basis. The car is still too new I guess.

Cheers!

 

Maxrpm,

You're absolutely right about weight transfer, of course. More rear brake will not help at all, just unsettle the rear under hard braking.

I forgot to mention a couple of things about the Hawk Blues.

1) I get a whole season out of the tiny front rotors on my E30 with these pads, so rotor wear is not an issue.

2) The dust they generate is super sticky and very corrosive. It will stick to your wheels like paint (esp. if it gets wet) and is a major PITA to get off. You have to wash your wheels right away to keep them fron corroding.

I have a set of used BBS cross-spoke alloys that I use on track, so I don't really care about a little discoloration/corrosion. But I would really be careful with new wheels on your Z.

Emre

 

The points about the roles of the springs, bound/rebound damper, anti-rolls bars in terms of controlling weight transfer is of course correct.

My point was that the Z has 53-57% (which ever it is) unladen weight in the front already by design. During hard braking, a good percentage more of it transfers over to the fronts independent of break setup. With the orginial springs on the car, without stiffening the springs and adding thicker roll-bars, Do'h experienced about 2.5 times more rear break wear. Hence, if one were to improve the springs and anti-roll bar for less weight transfer towards to front, the rear breaks will have to do even more work. Do we agree on this?

However, as I stated, this is all speculation on my part with just general automotive dynamics and physics knowledge. However, inspite of whether my speculation is correct or not, if it was my money to be spent, I would do gradual and relatively minor upgrades, starting from rotors, break lines, and pads; and see how things improve.

My second point was that given the fact that under original stock setup Do'h utilized more of his rear breaks, I am not able to justify (to my self) an upgrade of brakes that involve only the fronts.

I do not disagree with any of the points made. I am actually voicing my thought process to see if I am thinking correctly and to expand on the topic a little as I believe brake balance is a very critical issue in the overall handling of the car. And since I admit not being as well versed on breaks as suspension systems, I feel the need to learn a little more via this type of discussions. However, I rushed my first response and cut corners in my thought process, hence I think my point did not come out as clearly as I hoped

Now, hoping I made points... shoot

 

I have two track weekends (4 days at VIR and Summit Point) on my 350Z Track (Brembos), and the OEM pads (made by Ferodo for the Brembo application) have held up well. I don't know how much pad I have left exactly, but I'll have a peak at it tomorrow when I bleed by brakes (which I should have done a long time ago, but neglected).

I've used Hawk Blue and HP+ pads on my Honda, and they had a real agressive bite. However, in the cold they'll eat your rotors alive, dust heavy, and squeel pretty loud. I haven't tried MaddMatt's (Carbotech) compounds yet, but I know a lot of people who have been happy with his Panther Plus pads.

A lot of people are using the Axxis Ultimates for street & track pads, but I was never impressed with them personally.

When you do make your decision, I suggest you inquire about how rotor-friendly a lot of these pads are, because the Z rotors will cost you an arm and a leg.

I'll be running Cobalt's new GT Sport compound at Mid-Ohio in a week and a half, which is primarily an Solo II / basic HPDE pad. Contact Andie at Cobalt Friction (www.cobaltfriction.com), he's extremely knowledgable, communicative, and runs a transparent business. From what I've gathered, this pad has the gripping properties of a pad between the Hawk HP+ and the Blues, but must more rotor-friendly.

Andie will be producing his GTR (VR) road-racing compound late next month for our application. A friend of mine in Napa did a write-up on this compound: http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=453937. Even though he drives an ITR, the compound is the same, and is quite rotor-friendly.

Hope that helps...

 

Just a couple comments:

First, keep in mind that I have the standard brakes, and not the Track version.

Regarding Rotor Size and Temps - Because the rotors act as heatsinks, a larger rotor will run cooler than a smaller one, just as a larger heatsink will run cooler than a smaller one. The larger rotor has more surface area, which allows better radiation and convection of the heat to the outside world. It also has a larger thermal mass, which means it can absorb more engergy without heating up as much as a smaller rotor.

Regarding rear brakes - Take my measuremtents as preliminary, because I still haven't measured my front pads myself. While the mechanics told me the rears were more worn, it is possible that they didn't really know exactly what the wear limits were, and were just estimating. They were indeed very close on their estimates of the rears, so they may also be correct on the fronts, but I'll know for sure after the weekend. Also, the rear brakes start at 8mm thick and should be replaced at 2mm. The fronts start at 11mm thick and should be replaced at 2mm. Therefore they have 50% more available pad (6mm rear VS 9mm front) than the rear brakes. It could be that this is why the fronts have potentially more life left.

Regarding brake upgrades - According to comments from Stoptech, their 13" front set is probably the best when considering unsprung weight, even though it isn't as cool as their 14" front or 14" four wheel kit. Also, the data from here:
http://www.zeckhausen.com/Testing_Brakes.htm
shows that even with the stoptech kit, the rear brakes are no hotter than the fronts. Therefore, I don't think upgrading the rear rotors are necessary, although higher temperature pads may certainly help. For racing, the problem is not necessarily wear, but rather keeping the pad within its operating temperature. Also, the OEM rear pads are pretty cheap and very easy to replace, so having them as the limiting factor may not be too bad.

Very good discussion!!

-D'oh!

 

A little bit of info for the physics-knowledge impaired among us:

Weight transfer towards the front of the car under braking has very little to do with the suspension (I'll explain why it has SOME impact later). The primary determinants of how much weight transfers under braking are: total deceleration (the greater the Gs, the more weight transfer), height of center of gravity (the higher the CG, the greater the weight transfer) and wheelbase (the shorter the wheelbase, the greater the weight transfer). Suspension kinematics only affect weight transfer in two ways (possibly 3, in certain screwed up situations). In that they can affect the dynamic CG and the amount of grip available to braking, they can change two of the parameters above, and hence change the amount of weight transfer (this is fractions of a % however). They can also affect how quickly and stably the weight transfer occurs (based on spring and damper rates as well as geometry). Finally a really screwed up suspension that would have different wheel rates left to rear (not what you want) could bias the overall weight transfer to the stiffer side of the car and force one brake to lock up first. This is similar to how anti-roll bars can bias the lateral weight transfer to one axle and affect the under/oversteer blance. Suspension stiffness does NOT affect how much weight transfer takes place, only how fast and where it takes place.

Hope this clears things up for people. This is truth as told by a BMWCCA driving instructor, suspension engineer and Aerospace/Mechanical engineering grad. Don't challenge the knowledge.

Jason

 

Was that Steve Scholman of CCA by the way?

All correct, and good explanation. However, how does this very theory apply to the practical world of the Z and its brake balance is where I am having the trouble. Obviously, I should just wait until I get a Z and take it to the track before I even open my mouth, but I could not resist the discussion.

Do'h, let us know your break wear information, may be we can draw some more conclusions, and may be other people with different setups can compare them as well.

 

Stop whoring the thread and stick to the topic.

We can talk theory all day, I want to know real world experiences, because in the end that is reality and what matters!

So far it sounds like stock brakes and the Brembos can hold up to track days. But I still would like to see more examples from different tracks and pads and driving skill/experience.

 

No, its from me... I don't know Steve Scholman, which area is he from? I'm in the northeast (My home tracks are Summit, Limerock, Watkins ad Pocono).

In terms of the 350z's brake balance, I woudl tend to trust StopTech's calculations. You can do all kinds of things to brakes and maintain optimal balance (because of the multiple variables that you are playing with - rotor diameter, swept area, piston sizing, pad choice, etc...) or you can royally screw up a system depending on whether or not you know what you are doing and actually run the math. You also inevitably need some testing. So, my point is that you can't say whether or not an upgrade to the fronts only will work unless you know much more about it than just teh rotor sizing. The people at StopTech know what they are doing and have done their homework. I would trust all of their upgrades (although the front only upgrade is probably the best choice if you consider $). In the rest of the aftermarket, I can't really comment, some systems will be good, others will really screw with your bias.

One other thing to note is that with electronic brake force distribution and latest generation ABS on modern cars (including the 350z), there is a bit of leeway built into cars in terms of improper bias. A slightly mismatched system will probably still work quite well. You just can't go too far from proper biasing.

Jason