Watkins Glen with Car Guys
07-19-2003, 09:35 PM
#21
This will be brief....I gotta work tomorrow
Rev-It-Up was a blast.....I hadn't autocrossed in 25 years, so it was refreshing.
Driving the S H I T out of someone elses car is always fun
The Azenis's DO squell......albeit much later than 040's.
Too bad the Azenis only come in 225/45 17 & 245/45 17's. Not sure what to do on my 7.5 F & 8" R rims.
245 on a 7.5 rim is going to soften the sidewall too much.
Anyone want to sell rear 17's cheap?
Rev-It-Up was a blast.....I hadn't autocrossed in 25 years, so it was refreshing.
Driving the S H I T out of someone elses car is always fun The Azenis's DO squell......albeit much later than 040's.Too bad the Azenis only come in 225/45 17 & 245/45 17's. Not sure what to do on my 7.5 F & 8" R rims.
245 on a 7.5 rim is going to soften the sidewall too much.Anyone want to sell rear 17's cheap?
07-23-2003, 08:55 AM
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Guys,
Sorry not to get back sooner, but I only had a week and a half between running at the Glen and going down to VIR last weekend (more about that below).
EnthuZ:
As Hedonist has said, we were both running the stock RE040s. Mine were clearly wearing down, but did all right at WG. But I don't think it's a very hard track on tires.
When I got home, I debated whether I should get a new set before going to VIR, but because there was still 6/32nds left, and because the time was tight (less than a week), I decided to try to get one more track event out of them.
Mistake.
I got to VIR last Friday morning to run with the Vipers. Friday was an open track day, with an unbelievable 3.5 hours of track time for each of two groups (Challenge drivers and Racers). Half an hour on and half an hour off, all day, except for lunch!
It was for advanced drivers only, with no formal instruction, and since it was my first time at VIR, this made me a little nervous going in. But the organizers, Skip and his daughter Courtney, were very helpful in setting me up with instructors to show me around. I went through the low-speed drive-around session with a racer, Henry, and ran the first real session with Ben in his Boxster. In the second session I took to the track in the Z with Henry riding shotgun.
Things were going well, but as time wore on and my speeds picked up, I noticed more and more understeer. Eventually I was drifting on all four wheels through several turns. The tires were just gone.
After lunch I lowered the pressures, and that helped a little, but with all the Vipers whizzing by me (boy, those cars can move!), I didn't feel comfortable on such slippery tires. I was holding people up, and if I had lost it in a tight turn with someone right on my tail, it wouldn't have been pretty.
I sacrificed one session to go into Danville to see if a tire dealer there might have a set of S-03s for me, but no luck. I was even considering ordering a set from Tire Rack for Saturday delivery, but the guy in the Driving Impressions store there said that even if they said they could get them to me, FedEx and UPS won't deliver to the track on Saturdays.
So I reluctantly decided not to run on Saturday. I drove one more session Friday afternoon, which gave me almost two full hours for the day. So not a complete waste, and I lived to play another day. If it had been a regular HPDE, and not all Vipers, I would have thought harder about staying. But around all those 450 hp cars, I didn't want to take too many chances.
BTW, the Viper Club is something else. At most of the HPDEs I go to, the majority of participants drive in, and a smaller number trailer their cars to the track. At Viper Days, everyone trailered in, and not just little open trailers behind pickups. These were big honking enclosed trailers, some pulled by semi tractors! These people have some serious money! (No wonder they charged about twice the standard rate for an HPDE.) It was impressive. I'm sorry I didn't get any pictures from the paddock.
But the people were nice, and they had a swell reception Friday night with great food. For those attending the Saturday and Sunday sessions, lunches and dinners were provided.
There were a handful of Corvettes, a second-gen RX, and a couple of Porsches, and all but one or two of these were also trailered.
The track was a lot of fun. Although they had told us we'd be running the full course, and the drive-around and first session were on the full 3.25-mile circuit, after that they shunted us onto the North Course for the rest of the day because Porsche was filming a commercial on the South Course. So although I drove slowly and rode in the Boxster around the south end, I didn't get to do the full course at speed in my car. I'm looking forward to going back.
Now that I'm home, I have the same tire quandary the rest of you were talking about. I've been planning to replace the RE040s with S-O3s because I want to stay at the stock size for speedo accuracy. But now I'm having second thoughts. If I can only get 10 track days or less out of a set of tires, it might be better to see if I can get a set for under $800.
But when I check Tire Rack for something close to the same size in 17" (which would of course require another set of wheels) I don't find many cheaper alternatives. I'll look into the Falkens mentioned above, and I've also heard good things about Toyo Proxes. It's a question of whether 17-inchers will be sufficiently cheap to justify the expense and hassle of an extra set of wheels.
The Rays wheels that come with the Track package are narrower on the front, aren't they? Could you put 245s on them, so as to have the same tires all the way around, as Kayaalp recommends?
I have to decide by August 15: my next FATT at Summit Point. Anyone else going to be there?
Finally, as to your very first question, EnthuZ, I didn't notice the radiator shop. We always approached from town, the downhill side.
Sorry not to get back sooner, but I only had a week and a half between running at the Glen and going down to VIR last weekend (more about that below).
EnthuZ:
As Hedonist has said, we were both running the stock RE040s. Mine were clearly wearing down, but did all right at WG. But I don't think it's a very hard track on tires.
When I got home, I debated whether I should get a new set before going to VIR, but because there was still 6/32nds left, and because the time was tight (less than a week), I decided to try to get one more track event out of them.
Mistake.
I got to VIR last Friday morning to run with the Vipers. Friday was an open track day, with an unbelievable 3.5 hours of track time for each of two groups (Challenge drivers and Racers). Half an hour on and half an hour off, all day, except for lunch!
It was for advanced drivers only, with no formal instruction, and since it was my first time at VIR, this made me a little nervous going in. But the organizers, Skip and his daughter Courtney, were very helpful in setting me up with instructors to show me around. I went through the low-speed drive-around session with a racer, Henry, and ran the first real session with Ben in his Boxster. In the second session I took to the track in the Z with Henry riding shotgun.
Things were going well, but as time wore on and my speeds picked up, I noticed more and more understeer. Eventually I was drifting on all four wheels through several turns. The tires were just gone.
After lunch I lowered the pressures, and that helped a little, but with all the Vipers whizzing by me (boy, those cars can move!), I didn't feel comfortable on such slippery tires. I was holding people up, and if I had lost it in a tight turn with someone right on my tail, it wouldn't have been pretty.
I sacrificed one session to go into Danville to see if a tire dealer there might have a set of S-03s for me, but no luck. I was even considering ordering a set from Tire Rack for Saturday delivery, but the guy in the Driving Impressions store there said that even if they said they could get them to me, FedEx and UPS won't deliver to the track on Saturdays.
So I reluctantly decided not to run on Saturday. I drove one more session Friday afternoon, which gave me almost two full hours for the day. So not a complete waste, and I lived to play another day. If it had been a regular HPDE, and not all Vipers, I would have thought harder about staying. But around all those 450 hp cars, I didn't want to take too many chances.
BTW, the Viper Club is something else. At most of the HPDEs I go to, the majority of participants drive in, and a smaller number trailer their cars to the track. At Viper Days, everyone trailered in, and not just little open trailers behind pickups. These were big honking enclosed trailers, some pulled by semi tractors! These people have some serious money! (No wonder they charged about twice the standard rate for an HPDE.) It was impressive. I'm sorry I didn't get any pictures from the paddock.
But the people were nice, and they had a swell reception Friday night with great food. For those attending the Saturday and Sunday sessions, lunches and dinners were provided.
There were a handful of Corvettes, a second-gen RX, and a couple of Porsches, and all but one or two of these were also trailered.
The track was a lot of fun. Although they had told us we'd be running the full course, and the drive-around and first session were on the full 3.25-mile circuit, after that they shunted us onto the North Course for the rest of the day because Porsche was filming a commercial on the South Course. So although I drove slowly and rode in the Boxster around the south end, I didn't get to do the full course at speed in my car. I'm looking forward to going back.
Now that I'm home, I have the same tire quandary the rest of you were talking about. I've been planning to replace the RE040s with S-O3s because I want to stay at the stock size for speedo accuracy. But now I'm having second thoughts. If I can only get 10 track days or less out of a set of tires, it might be better to see if I can get a set for under $800.
But when I check Tire Rack for something close to the same size in 17" (which would of course require another set of wheels) I don't find many cheaper alternatives. I'll look into the Falkens mentioned above, and I've also heard good things about Toyo Proxes. It's a question of whether 17-inchers will be sufficiently cheap to justify the expense and hassle of an extra set of wheels.
The Rays wheels that come with the Track package are narrower on the front, aren't they? Could you put 245s on them, so as to have the same tires all the way around, as Kayaalp recommends?
I have to decide by August 15: my next FATT at Summit Point. Anyone else going to be there?
Finally, as to your very first question, EnthuZ, I didn't notice the radiator shop. We always approached from town, the downhill side.
07-23-2003, 11:45 AM
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front tire size
Originally posted by commasense
But when I check Tire Rack for something close to the same size in 17" (which would of course require another set of wheels) I don't find many cheaper alternatives. I'll look into the Falkens mentioned above, and I've also heard good things about Toyo Proxes. It's a question of whether 17-inchers will be sufficiently cheap to justify the expense and hassle of an extra set of wheels.
The Rays wheels that come with the Track package are narrower on the front, aren't they? Could you put 245s on them, so as to have the same tires all the way around, as Kayaalp recommends?
But when I check Tire Rack for something close to the same size in 17" (which would of course require another set of wheels) I don't find many cheaper alternatives. I'll look into the Falkens mentioned above, and I've also heard good things about Toyo Proxes. It's a question of whether 17-inchers will be sufficiently cheap to justify the expense and hassle of an extra set of wheels.
The Rays wheels that come with the Track package are narrower on the front, aren't they? Could you put 245s on them, so as to have the same tires all the way around, as Kayaalp recommends?
Sounds like you did the right thing by not going out on Saturday. It's always hard to sit out a few sessions when you've paid so much and you're so excited to be there...but it's sometimes the right thing to do.
Same tires all around will definitely help with understeer. I know a few guys with E36 M3's and Porsche 996's who had the wide rear tires 'cause they liked the macho 930 Turbo look. They all complained that their cars underteered on the track. No sh*t! When they put the same size all around, the cars were much more balanced (the E36 seemed particularly sensitive to this). Plus, you get the added benefit of being able to rotate tires. If you pick up tires like the Toyo RA-1's, you can even flip the tires on the rims to get even more life out of them.
I personally like Azenis Sports for their combination of "almost R-compound" dry performance, excellent wet grip, and super low cost. The 245/45ZR-17's are only $123 each (shipping included) from discount tires direct.
Emre
07-23-2003, 01:23 PM
#24
James, it sounds like you made the right choice in passing on driving on Sunday. Never drive if you're uncomfortable.
My tires also get a lot slipperier as the day progresses. I just drove through it....it did finally stop sliding, but yah, it was "Loose"! My tread hasn't worn very much in depth, but the edges are all rounded on the outer edges of the tread blocks. But what scares me is I'm loosing chunks of rubber from the 2 center bands!
Road America is coming up soon, with a bunch of VERY high speed turns, so I don't think I'll risk using the 040's again there. I'll probably get the 225's for the front, and the 245's for the rear. A bit of understeer in the carousel will be comforting!
The Falken rep. at the Rev-It-Up event said more sizes are coming for next year. Damn, I want them NOW!
As to the radiator shop, I thought it's location was great! The top of a looooooong hill!
You recommended some track "rice" tricks a while ago, so I'll pass along my latest 2 second a lap improvement. Matching body colored(Silverstone) suede driving gloves! Made by Bill Simpson's new company, Impact.
Never drive if you're uncomfortable.My tires also get a lot slipperier as the day progresses. I just drove through it....it did finally stop sliding, but yah, it was "Loose"! My tread hasn't worn very much in depth, but the edges are all rounded on the outer edges of the tread blocks. But what scares me is I'm loosing chunks of rubber from the 2 center bands!
Road America is coming up soon, with a bunch of VERY high speed turns, so I don't think I'll risk using the 040's again there. I'll probably get the 225's for the front, and the 245's for the rear. A bit of understeer in the carousel will be comforting!
The Falken rep. at the Rev-It-Up event said more sizes are coming for next year. Damn, I want them NOW!
As to the radiator shop, I thought it's location was great! The top of a looooooong hill!
You recommended some track "rice" tricks a while ago, so I'll pass along my latest 2 second a lap improvement. Matching body colored(Silverstone) suede driving gloves! Made by Bill Simpson's new company, Impact.
07-23-2003, 01:24 PM
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Missed you at VIR!
I drove all the way to VIR on Saturday to see you run with the Vipers and you weren't even there! That pissed me off so much I drove back up there on Sunday with a bunch of my friends! 
Naaaahhhh, I understand, those Vipers are monsters. You gotta have brass ***** to run with them at all, I wouldn't want to do it on bald tires either!
I had a blast watching. I've just GOT to run VIR full course one of these days. I'll post some pics:
Naaaahhhh, I understand, those Vipers are monsters. You gotta have brass ***** to run with them at all, I wouldn't want to do it on bald tires either!
I had a blast watching. I've just GOT to run VIR full course one of these days. I'll post some pics:
07-23-2003, 02:09 PM
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Originally posted by EnthuZ
Did any of your friends go out on the track/kill some Vipors?
Did any of your friends go out on the track/kill some Vipors?
No, we didn't. One day at this event cost more than the whole weekend at most HPDE events here.
07-23-2003, 02:11 PM
#28
James, welcome back.
Sounds like what you experienced on Friday was the same thing that happened to me at Summit Point and WG: greasy tires. When those RE040s get really hot, the rubber gets greasy. You can still drive on the tires, but just not for long sessions. But you and I are in the same boat in needing new tires. I myself am taking a mini-hiatus from tracking the car for a few months so that I can save some money.
As for tire sizes for the OEM track wheels, the maximum size you can fit on the front is a 245 and on the rear 255.
Allow me to recommend that you flush / bleed your clutch fluid. My new tranny is in, and I flushed the clutch system with fresh fluid, and the clutch feels brand new. Also, the differential fluid was looking pretty nasty, so you might want to look into draining that too.
Oh, and thanks for the CD.
Sounds like what you experienced on Friday was the same thing that happened to me at Summit Point and WG: greasy tires. When those RE040s get really hot, the rubber gets greasy. You can still drive on the tires, but just not for long sessions. But you and I are in the same boat in needing new tires. I myself am taking a mini-hiatus from tracking the car for a few months so that I can save some money.
As for tire sizes for the OEM track wheels, the maximum size you can fit on the front is a 245 and on the rear 255.
Allow me to recommend that you flush / bleed your clutch fluid. My new tranny is in, and I flushed the clutch system with fresh fluid, and the clutch feels brand new. Also, the differential fluid was looking pretty nasty, so you might want to look into draining that too.
Oh, and thanks for the CD.
07-23-2003, 02:47 PM
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Re: Missed you at VIR!
Originally posted by bhobson333
I drove all the way to VIR on Saturday to see you run with the Vipers and you weren't even there! That pissed me off so much I drove back up there on Sunday with a bunch of my friends!
Naaaahhhh, I understand, those Vipers are monsters. You gotta have brass ***** to run with them at all, I wouldn't want to do it on bald tires either!
I drove all the way to VIR on Saturday to see you run with the Vipers and you weren't even there! That pissed me off so much I drove back up there on Sunday with a bunch of my friends!
Naaaahhhh, I understand, those Vipers are monsters. You gotta have brass ***** to run with them at all, I wouldn't want to do it on bald tires either!
Did you get any shots of all the mega-trailers in the paddock that you can show these guys? It was an amazing show of hardware.
Kayaalp: So if I want to go to 17" wheels for the track, can you recommend any that are as light as the Rays, reasonably priced, and not too ugly? What width should I get?
Hedonist: thanks for the suggestions about the fluids. Are those jobs pretty easy? Can you do the clutch by yourself, or do you need an assistant to help with the bleeding?
07-23-2003, 02:58 PM
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Originally posted by Hedonist
When those RE040s get really hot, the rubber gets greasy. You can still drive on the tires, but just not for long sessions.
When those RE040s get really hot, the rubber gets greasy. You can still drive on the tires, but just not for long sessions.
James: Sorry, I didn't get as many pics as I should have of the Vipers and the paddock. On Saturday, when I was alone, I didn't have my camera (realized at the last minute as I was leaving that the battery was dead) and on Sunday there was too much else going on.
I haven't replaced the clutch fluid (clutch fluid? The clutch is a dry assembly I thought) but I have replaced the tranny & differential fluid. Jacks & stands are a must, a fluid pump is VERY handy (available cheap at Pepboys) and a friend to help is very useful.
Last edited by bhobson333; 07-23-2003 at 03:04 PM.
07-23-2003, 03:10 PM
#32
Exactly, I've only had the problem during hot events. That summer sun on the asphalt really pushes the traction limit of the RE040s.
I can't give you an honest answer since I didn't do it myself. I had the dealer do it when they swapped my tranny (hey, it was free!).
thanks for the suggestions about the fluids. Are those jobs pretty easy? Can you do the clutch by yourself, or do you need an assistant to help with the bleeding?
07-23-2003, 03:13 PM
#33
I haven't replaced the clutch fluid (clutch fluid? The clutch is a dry assembly I thought) but I have replaced the tranny & differential fluid. Jacks & stands are a must, a fluid pump is VERY handy (available cheap at Pepboys) and a friend to help is very useful.
07-23-2003, 05:43 PM
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I was one of the 350zs watching at VIR this past weekend. It was amazing to see what those guys and girls put into those cars.
In addition to the HPDE, the Viper GT Competition Coupes raced on Sunday. That was amazing.
In addition to the HPDE, the Viper GT Competition Coupes raced on Sunday. That was amazing.
07-23-2003, 08:24 PM
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Lightweight wheels
Originally posted by commasense
[B]Kayaalp: So if I want to go to 17" wheels for the track, can you recommend any that are as light as the Rays, reasonably priced, and not too ugly? What width should I get?
[B]Kayaalp: So if I want to go to 17" wheels for the track, can you recommend any that are as light as the Rays, reasonably priced, and not too ugly? What width should I get?
I always thought Rotas were a great deal. They're really lightweight, reasonably strong, and very inexpensive. Plus, they have lots of different styles and finishes. I think the anthracite finish with polished lip would look awesome on just about any color Z. I'm not sure if they have a fitment specifically for the Z (you may need spacers).
The Subzeros and Slipstreams are very popular at the track events I've been to. The 15" Slipstreams I looked at for my E30 318is weighed only 5kg (about 11.5 pounds) each and sold for $110 apiece. Not bad. Don't know about the price/weight of the 17 inchers, but I'm sure they compare well against other makes.
Here's a link...
Here's another...
Emre
07-25-2003, 02:48 PM
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I didn't notice the chunking at the track because at VIR, when you pull off the paved driveways into the paddock parking, you're on a fine, almost sand-like gravel that completely coats your hot tires. If I had noticed how bad the chunking on the left was, I might have considered flipping the fronts, as Kayaalp suggests. I could have had it done right there, at nearly no cost, and it would have saved the weekend for me! D'oh!
I went down to Radial Tire in Silver Spring this morning to look into replacements for the RE040s and possible wheel-tire combinations for dedicated track use. Radial was recommended to me by some folks in the local Porsche club as being knowledgeable about track tires and setups. I got talking with the president, Paul, and he said that just by flipping the fronts I should definitely be able to get several more track days out of these tires. There I was, ready to buy $800+ of S-03s from him, and he said I should wait. I was impressed.
He strongly recommended Toyo RA-1s as a good street-legal track tire. If I go for a dedicated set of track wheels/tires, I need street-legal, because I'll have to change them at home before I go. I was asking Paul about 17-inch wheels, and he said that this winter tire makers may start offering more 18-inch sizes, and that the prices on them may be coming down as well. So his recommendation was to flip the fronts now, use these tires up completely for the rest of this year, and wait to see what's available for next year. Which is probably what I'll do.
If a better selection of 18-inchers is available, I'd be tempted to find a used set of 350Z Track wheels for my track set, which would allow me to use the pressure sensors at the track. I find them to be very useful. Has anyone reset the sensors, or switched between two sets? Is reconfiguring the receiver complicated?
BTW, I found this from an ad in a car magazine: MaxQData. It's a (relatively) low-cost data acquisition system that connects to your car's OBD-II plug and uses your Pocket PC and GPS receiver to monitor the car's performance, your track lap times (without an external beacon), segment speeds, and lots of other things. You can use it to check tuning mods, 0-60 times, lateral Gs, and lots more, and it stores it all in a database that you can examine on your laptop or desktop and share with other people.
It looks really cool, although a complete setup, including the Pocket PC and the GPS, could cost well over $1,000. But even at that, I'm tempted, because I'd really like to know what effect different lines, turn-in points, etc. I try are having. Without something like this, all you can do is glance at your speedo as you exit a corner, and that's not all that helpful in improving your times.
Does anyone know about this system, or about other similar ones? I searched the forum and didn't find any hits on MaxQData.
I went down to Radial Tire in Silver Spring this morning to look into replacements for the RE040s and possible wheel-tire combinations for dedicated track use. Radial was recommended to me by some folks in the local Porsche club as being knowledgeable about track tires and setups. I got talking with the president, Paul, and he said that just by flipping the fronts I should definitely be able to get several more track days out of these tires. There I was, ready to buy $800+ of S-03s from him, and he said I should wait. I was impressed.
He strongly recommended Toyo RA-1s as a good street-legal track tire. If I go for a dedicated set of track wheels/tires, I need street-legal, because I'll have to change them at home before I go. I was asking Paul about 17-inch wheels, and he said that this winter tire makers may start offering more 18-inch sizes, and that the prices on them may be coming down as well. So his recommendation was to flip the fronts now, use these tires up completely for the rest of this year, and wait to see what's available for next year. Which is probably what I'll do.
If a better selection of 18-inchers is available, I'd be tempted to find a used set of 350Z Track wheels for my track set, which would allow me to use the pressure sensors at the track. I find them to be very useful. Has anyone reset the sensors, or switched between two sets? Is reconfiguring the receiver complicated?
BTW, I found this from an ad in a car magazine: MaxQData. It's a (relatively) low-cost data acquisition system that connects to your car's OBD-II plug and uses your Pocket PC and GPS receiver to monitor the car's performance, your track lap times (without an external beacon), segment speeds, and lots of other things. You can use it to check tuning mods, 0-60 times, lateral Gs, and lots more, and it stores it all in a database that you can examine on your laptop or desktop and share with other people.
It looks really cool, although a complete setup, including the Pocket PC and the GPS, could cost well over $1,000. But even at that, I'm tempted, because I'd really like to know what effect different lines, turn-in points, etc. I try are having. Without something like this, all you can do is glance at your speedo as you exit a corner, and that's not all that helpful in improving your times.
Does anyone know about this system, or about other similar ones? I searched the forum and didn't find any hits on MaxQData.
Last edited by commasense; 07-25-2003 at 02:54 PM.
