When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
So after all of the silly mishaps involving the installation of the "cheap wheels", I thought it best to get the thing out there to start gathering some info.
My first day out (few days back) on the new tires was specifically to give me some baseline information:
Clearance Issues/Fit
I drove the car around on the streets/highway and listened/felt for any conflicts between tires and body work. Nada. Zilch. Fit works so I'll go ahead and say that I can safely recommend the setup as installed (and without any body work needed). BUT.... see below regarding wheel spacers and "ground clearance".
Alignment Friendly?
I had my annual alignment done a few weeks back and was surprised to find out how well it's held it's settings. NO adjustments needed, with the front camber set to middle of the spec range and the rears close to the minus-end of the range. But am very curious to see how the alignment will work with the more rounded shoulder tire construction of the Yokohamas versus the more square shouldered Bridgestones I normally run.
After the first few aggressive curves - still taken slow because the tires are still NEW and far from bedded - I note that I can probably run a half degree more camber F&R with these tires to give me a little more overall bite at the cost of a tad bit of response. Will try that a bit down the road.
Optimal Tire Pressure - Moving to a new tire from the three sets of Bridgestones I dialed in years ago, I had to do some experimentation to find pressures the AD08s like on my car, with my suspension.
Note: I had AD08Rs on my Z34N but this set of AD08s, being an older tire with different compounding and the Z34 having essentially a whole different chassis, I didn't want to count on the Z34's dialed-in pressure; but it served as a good starting point to set mine up.
Using the old "shoe polish" on the shoulder treatment, I ran the "short course" at medium speeds above nominal due to their being new - 7 miles up the hill and back down to the gas station air station three times to check/adjust pressures and re-apply the shoe polish, doing my best to not let the tires cool down too much. (Station attendant musta thought "the guy in the Z is nuts!" my having visited him so many times for air and trying to work quickly enough; almost emulating an Indy pit crew.)
No, nothing terribly scientific about this at all, just an old-but-still-used trick to give me some rough, visual/thumbnail indicators of the rollover the tires are experiencing under load and what the tires are doing at the various pressure settings. Should note that people still seem to do this at autocrosses due to the shorter, tighter turns leading to higher relative rollover experienced in racing cones versus road courses.
Must not have run 'em hard enough OR the pressures were all high enough on all three runs and pressure settings (despite the 4# deviations between runs) as the wear patterns were pretty consistent over all three runs.
I settled on the middle setting of 38F/36R (vs the 34/32 and 42/40 at the ends of the tested pressure spectrum)
Oh, the wheels?
So far, nothing remarkable about the wheel performance either positive or negative. They did their job but with a few semi-anticipated differences, described below.
_______________________________________
Following morning, went out to run the car a little harder with about a 120 miles of break-in done.
My first run up and over the hill down the backside of the 9-Hill was without any drama. Tires doing their job, wheels, again unremarkable in slightly higher speed runs but with the following observations:
Driving Comfort
On-road comfort has diminished - by a fair amount I might add. Road irregularities produced noticeable "thuds" on my backside. I have NOT adjusted my shocks to compensate for the slight weight difference between the test set up and my benchmark LMZ5s.
I will adjust the shocks next week away from my LMZ5/S-04 "normal configuration" - in which I took out damping - minus-3 clicks - all the way down to full "soft"/zero setting- when going from my moderately heavy Volks to the LMZ5s.
Sidenote: I was surprised to find out that there's only about +4.5lbs net (tire AND wheel) weight difference between the test wheel/tires and my LMZ5/S04 set up! I chalk this up to the AD08 tires being a bit less in weight under the Bridgestones. (But in all honesty, forgot to weigh the tires separate from the wheels, so that's just a guesstimate from my having lifted the tires many tmes..)
But, the increase in road annoyance might be equally split between the cast wheels and the AD08 tires. I suspect that they, being in the Extreme Performance category, are kicking back more of the road shock due to stiffer sidewalls. Speculation at best but something I've seen many times, going from "base tires" to UHP or higher rubber.
Once in the curves though, the "discomfort" pretty much disappeared. Could be the roads, could just be me being unaware of that factor while concentrating. Either way, where it's critical, the tire/wheels did their job relatively smoothly.
In any event, I'm going to re-adjust the shocks back to +3 then re-test. I obviously need more compression control.
Incidentally, the combination of the LMZ5s with S-04s with zero-setting on the shocks have about the best ride I've ever experienced in any of my Z cars. At least as good as or maybe even better than my Nismo 370. Can you tell I really like, wait, no, love my S-Tune wheels?
Tire Sizing
Hoooboy, after all of the advice I dish out about tire sizing and using my handy dandy tire spreadsheet - which has specific size values for all of my Zs (from the aged Shiro to my Z34N), my Volvo, and even our Highlander, I failed to take height-wise sizing into account when installing the Nismo sized tires on my '03. (Or something else has gone haywire somewhere.... read on.)
245 40% 18 25.72 Stock NISMO Front (Front test tire)
265 35% 19 26.30 Stock NISMO Rear (Rear test tire)
245 35% 19 25.75 My Bridgestone S-04s (Front)
275 35% 19 26.58 My Bridgestone S-04s (Rear)
You can see that the Nismo set up is 0.25"/6.35mm shorter in the front and 0.38"/9.65mm shorter in the rear from OEM. (And roughly that much lower than my LMZ5/Bridgestone set up).
The result of this is that now my exhaust system scrapes going over medium driveways (even angled) and over semi-aggressive speed bumps! Errrrgggh. With any/all of my other tire/wheel set-ups, I've NEVER scraped except on the really aggressive speed bumps at the mall near my house.
I should note that on the street this isn't that critical but if you track your car, be aware that this type of interference may be especially noticeable in high load turns or raised apex berms.
And trust me on this.... it would ruin your entire track day to get a meatball (mechanical black flag) cuz you dropped that expensive Y-pipe in the middle of Turn 4. Uhhh, yeah, I've been there...
But yeah, never really realized how tight the ground-to-exhaust clearance was before this. And what's particularly strange is that I used to run my Nismo V3 wheels on this car and never had a problem prior to this. You can imagine the "WTF?" going on in my head.
Upon returning home, I raised the car and checked my suspension to look for any visible failures and did a height measurement and compared to my last check a year ago. No differences. So, you tell me what changed??
In any event, I mention this only to warn first time suspension tweakers to be really careful about your selection of hardware and tire size. If you're considering a set of tires and can't decide between say, a 265/35 and a 275/35 - either of which will work fine - my rec is to err to the taller one just for that few mm of extra ground clearance. May not look all "low and cool" but there is nothing quite so annoying as ground clearance issues.
Steering Feel
Final observation is that I did notice a slight change in the steering attitude of the car. Turn in response was off a bit. But in an odd way. It seemed to be a little less precise and responsive than my S-04s and at the same time a little "disconnected" from the road. BUT, there was no issue with the handling overall. It just felt "different".
I'm speculating on a few of the causes...
First off, the wheel spacers. Might not seem like that much but 15mm outboard movement of the wheel (plus the commensurate movement outwards due to the 0.5" extra width) translates into that much movement of the tire center line, thereby creating too much positive scrub radius - in turn "messing up the steering input" and creating a more sluggish steering response.
If you've ever read any of my posts on suspension or tire/wheel mods, you KNOW that I detest, nay, LOATH, any reduction in steering response.
So.... off they will come.
Just another reason to hate wheel spacers (but I still use them in some applications like the 370Z LMZ5 wheels - which would actually create too much NEGATIVE scrub were I to run them sans spacers. So a necessary evil. With this set of wheels, I have a set of 5mm slip-on spacers I'll try.)
Also contributing to the uneasy steering feel are likely the tires. They're still far too new to make any kind of judgement call so I'll give 'em a few hundred more miles before pointing any fingers.
_______________________________________
Oh, right, this isn't a tires test. It's supposed to be about the wheels, I forgot.
All in all, the wheels seem to be doing their job and while they've only been run a short bit and not anywhere near the usual pace of any of my "bedded-in" set of wheels and tires, I don't foresee any real issues. At this point, I've done no testing to really stress the wheels. Will have to wait for the tires to take a good set before punishment tests can be commenced.
_______________________________________
With that said, this will be the last installment of this "test" for a while as I'll just be driving on the wheels and tires in normal fashion for a while so you can utter a sigh of relief that you don't have to read this stuff for a while. (If you made it this far.)
Wait, what do you mean when you said, "I already have that option, ya windbag!"??
Cheers,
Mic
Last edited by MicVelo; 05-27-2016 at 07:31 PM.
Reason: spelin' erur
Whoa... Not to get off topic here but WHICH 2 F1 races are you attending??
Ooops, sorry, just saw this....
Austrian GP on 7/3 (still tentative as I'll be in country but meeting people there so it might be a stretch). My friends with the tix will have no trouble taking someone else if I bag out.... which I do NOT intend to unless dire circumstances forbid)
British GP a week later on 7/10 at Silverstone. This is DEFINITE. I will NOT miss visiting this most iconic race track. I've been reading race reports and watching races on TV at Silverstone since I was about 10 years old. (A long time ago!!) Only other races that would beat my going to this race are LeMans and this weekend's F1 in Monaco!
Secondly to anybody saying tires are not a big problem with weights
3/4 of my friends brand new Enkie RPF1s took a very notable amount of weight which I know is the cheap federal tires. One took over 5 ounces which is a lot for a 17x9
at the end you arrive at knowing if this particular set of wheels is worth the economy pricing , or not worth it
it will not answer a question with certainty if cheap wheels are worth it or not
Of course. To make a partially-quantified assessment on a sample of one to represent an entire genre is not only foolhardy, it's downright stupid.
I said at the beginning that the point of this whole test is to satisfy my curiosity about replica wheels; and that if one does do their own due diligence in shopping for a set of "budget alloys", one might be able to yield a good buy for someone not into track running. And, if this type of wheel indeed works for me - someone who pushes their wheels a little harder than the average driver - I can at least make intelligent commentary on the alternatives.
Only reason I go into such detail is for the learning experience - and if one person can benefit from it, then I've made a helpful contribution other than "Don't buy replicas, you need to spend $4000 on genuine Volks." Followed by "How do I know that? Well, that's what everyone says."
Sure, just a simple way of determining at what pressure setting, the tires will roll over down onto the furthest edges of the tread.
By marking the tire on the tread and down to the line of demarcation that separates the tread from the sidewall, the amount that the polish (or chalk or grease pencil even) wears down, is how far the tire is rolling under load.
As I said, it's not scientific at all. But starting the pressure really high and lowering it down to the point where one is comfortable with the amount of wear serves as a basis for the tire pressure that "appears" to be working OK with the particular tire/car/suspension.
In my case, again as I mentioned, none of the pressure settings yielded much rollover at all indicating that I didn't push it to that point yet or the pressures were adequate all the way from 32 to about 44lbs.
I am confused as to why you keep referring to this as "testing." There is no actual testing going on here. And you are not comparing apples to apples. I think I understand what you are trying to do here, but it is not actually going to provide the readers of this thread with any real information, other than your opinion, which may be biased or unbiased as far as we all know. (Yes, you can say you are unbiased, but there is no real way to know for certain.) I would venture to say that spreading misinformation can be dangerous.
I am not suggesting that you are claiming to be the authority on the real/fake wheel debate and I do not intend to be disrespectful with this post, but I would urge the readers of this thread to consider that this thread is simply one person's narrative and more, importantly, all opinion.
A true test would be a controlled experiment in which you take a set of real TE37's and a set of Varrstoen TE37 replicas in the exact same sizes and specifications and do all the same tests on each set of wheels and note the differences in results, with no other variables affecting the outcomes. The only difference in the tests would be the wheels.
Weds Wheels has done some testing in the past. They are crusaders for defending their brand, as they are often ripped off. Here is a video of an actual test they did a few years back.
Just because you hit a pothole using a replica wheel and the wheel does not burst into a million pieces does not mean that replica wheels do not "deserve the bad reputation" or that the genuine wheel is overpriced. Everyone has seen the "I have had my replica wheels on my car for 234,058 miles and never had a problem," and "My friend hit a pothole in his 2,000HP Z going 145MPH with replica wheels and they didn't break." posts. I'm sorry, that doesn't mean replica wheels are a good investment… or safe.
Either way, have fun with whatever it is you are doing here, but, frankly, I believe it to be somewhat of a waste of time and money and I hope the readers of this thread take your results/conclusions for what they are worth. My $.02.
I am confused as to why you keep referring to this as "testing." There is no actual testing going on here. And you are not comparing apples to apples. I think I understand what you are trying to do here, but it is not actually going to provide the readers of this thread with any real information, other than your opinion, which may be biased or unbiased as far as we all know. (Yes, you can say you are unbiased, but there is no real way to know for certain.) I would venture to say that spreading misinformation can be dangerous.
I am not suggesting that you are claiming to be the authority on the real/fake wheel debate and I do not intend to be disrespectful with this post, but I would urge the readers of this thread to consider that this thread is simply one person's narrative and more, importantly, all opinion.
A true test would be a controlled experiment in which you take a set of real TE37's and a set of Varrstoen TE37 replicas in the exact same sizes and specifications and do all the same tests on each set of wheels and note the differences in results, with no other variables affecting the outcomes. The only difference in the tests would be the wheels.
Weds Wheels has done some testing in the past. They are crusaders for defending their brand, as they are often ripped off. Here is a video of an actual test they did a few years back.
Just because you hit a pothole using a replica wheel and the wheel does not burst into a million pieces does not mean that replica wheels do not "deserve the bad reputation" or that the genuine wheel is overpriced. Everyone has seen the "I have had my replica wheels on my car for 234,058 miles and never had a problem," and "My friend hit a pothole in his 2,000HP Z going 145MPH with replica wheels and they didn't break." posts. I'm sorry, that doesn't mean replica wheels are a good investment… or safe.
Either way, have fun with whatever it is you are doing here, but, frankly, I believe it to be somewhat of a waste of time and money and I hope the readers of this thread take your results/conclusions for what they are worth. My $.02.
Absolutely all true. Your last paragraph contains the key word. "Fun".
As I stated from very beginning, I'm just seeing what differences there might be over MY roads, my driving. So yes, it's my opinion.
I will refrain from using the word "testing"- good point; but, in a non-professional, non-full-on measured manner, I am "comparing" how much difference there would be over the same roads in careful repetition. And try as I might to duplicate results, it will be next to impossible, I know that.
I would never suggest that this is going to provide any empirical data and once again, NOT trying to prove anything here - be it the superiority of "real wheels" nor trying to disprove the belief that cheap wheels are just that. Just trying to see what's what. All of my go-to wheels are forged, genuine and proven so that's not going to change at all.
But in the end, it will satisfy my curiosity and once again, if any of the side information I'm providing can help someone make an informed choice in the selection of a set of wheels and with what settings I had to make to get 'em right, well, that's not entirely a bad thing.
So, I'll add the disclaimer that:
1. I am not a professional wheel tester.
2. My "findings" are merely that.... MY findings for future reference.
3. And of course, YMMV. No, not "may vary".... WILL vary.
And after all that, it's a good excuse for me to get the car out more often than the once or twice a week I put it through its paces.
Secondly to anybody saying tires are not a big problem with weights
3/4 of my friends brand new Enkie RPF1s took a very notable amount of weight which I know is the cheap federal tires. One took over 5 ounces which is a lot for a 17x9
i bought a set of Federals because it was what i could afford at the time, and all the research said they were a good budget "bang for the buck" tire. a little noisy (i can deal with that) but overall a decent street tire. 5 months in and my 2 fronts are bad. they had some scalloping (my fault for not getting an alignment soon enough after doing bushings), and that caused some excess noise. but the big thing?
road force testing revealed that both front wheels exhibited an excessive (over 34 lbs!) of road force. even rotating the tire on the rim to offset the heaviest parts of the wheel/tire didnt help. still 30+ lbs of force. tires were balanced, but something was going wrong with the tires. bought 2 new Yokohama Avid (i know not "performance" tires but whatever) and all is well with the world. rear Federals are doing fine for now, well see how that goes. but they do take more weight to balance thats for sure.
now my big question is, why in the hell did the front tires being bad make it feel like the rear of my car was going to fall apart? no shake in the steering (ok, minor but i figured that up to the scalloping), but my rear end was always getting a nice massage going down the highway!
anyway, still have a minor vibration but im thinking that is due to the slight scallops on the rear tires, nothing that is too bad though. or maybe my bad diff bushings which are going to be replaced soon anyway. much more pleasant to drive my Z now though. sucks i went from a 245 to a 235 front (both 45 aspect ratios) but the 235 matches the 8 inch width of my fronts better, and the height stagger with the 275/40 rears looks better as well. slightly increased wheel gap, but im running shorter tires on a Tein S-Tech drop so...who cares? not me! i could drop some Sportlines in the car and sit nicely, but i kind of like some ground clearance (and front suspension travel!)
If I was to purchase a set of reps, it would have to be varrstoen es2's. I love the te37's but just can't justify spending $3200+ for a set of wheels. Honestly though, I like the oem wheels, I just wish they were wider with a different offset. Track v1's in 18x9f and 18x10r would be perfect, but that's neither here nor there. If I can find a set of track v2's I'm gonna pick them up, otherwise I'll probably get the es2's in hyper black.
Nah, nothing directly related to determining the integrity of the wheels.
I noted earlier - and in some other wheel thread - that I disliked the way the steering felt with the new set-up. It seemed to be slightly less responsive and, for want of a better word, sluggish, as compared to my S-Tune wheels.
Also, the ride had deteriorated some.
I attributed the steering issue to the 15mm spacers and the degraded ride quality to shock adjustment, accounting for the added weight.
I was correct. Removed and replaced the bolt-on spacers with a set of slip on 5mm units - yielding net +29mm offset in front - and that did the trick. The steering came alive again and the tires seemed to do what I wanted them to do when I wanted them to.
Firmed up my shocks +3 clicks and the ride, while still not quite as good as with my other wheel/tire setup, improved drastically on the road.
So here's the thing....
I've pushed the wheel/tire setup almost to the point of where I run my usual set-up. Ehhhhh, no significant anything +/- that I can point at the wheels, now that I've made above adjustments. Already bored. Laff....
Any conclusions? Nope, just gonna drive 'em 'til there's something worthwhile "reporting" here. But I suppose that's a good thing... in that there really isn't anything to say about the wheels, already a near-forgotten component.
First of all, KUDOS for this. I'm so glad someone actually did the wrench work. Not because I genuinely care about the outcome, but because I'm so sick of wheel ****** getting all butthurt about reps. I've found that most people that get upset about them don't use them at the track, and aren't yelling at people who care about the track. It's because they've spent gobs of money on their carpet queen and don't like someone to spend less than gobs of money to look like their carpet queen. But, I digress. I'm still glad this is happening.
I've never bought reps, but it isn't because I'm fundamentally against them. I'd totally buy Varrs ES6 (work meister reps), but I've actually gotten pretty good and finding used wheels that I want or used wheels that I can rebuild. so, I've yet to be able to justify new wheels on any of my imports (couple 240's, a 350Z, and a G35). But, some people don't have the patience to wait on something to pop up on a car that they don't drive every day (at no point have any of the RWD Nissans been my main car). Cool to see this play out.
05-27-2016, 07:16 PM
