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What funny, when manufactures do testing the test at the limit, minivans and sports cars get tested to 10/10. As I mentioned earlier, what works and fells good at normal speed may not work at the limit.
It would suck to be in an emergency situation driving a car with screwed up setting, I can normally recover a car at the limit but ....
I'd also like to add - if your car is lower than stock, you will MOST likely require adjustable droplinks front and rear. Or you'll be preloading the sway bars.
I'd also like to add - if your car is lower than stock, you will MOST likely require adjustable droplinks front and rear. Or you'll be preloading the sway bars.
Not really, we have ball joints on ours so you will never get a preload on the rubber bushing ( not the bar ) like the pic you posted shows.
But then the balljoints are at an angle no ?
I'll take photo's of my set up and post it up on Saturday (on stock drop links).
Yes the ball joints are at an angle , but not enough to make them bind. Preload on a bar is something different, really not that big of a deal unless you have a well setup , corner balanced, race car. If preload mattered, endlinks would probably be adjustable from the factory.
The Z sway bar is at a pretty good angle, then the aftermarket endlinks for the Z are no shorter than stock.
Yes the ball joints are at an angle , but not enough to make them bind. Preload on a bar is something different, really not that big of a deal unless you have a well setup , corner balanced, race car. If preload mattered, endlinks would probably be adjustable from the factory.
The Z sway bar is at a pretty good angle, then the aftermarket endlinks for the Z are no shorter than stock.
I'll see how it is on my car anyway.
As I've just recently fitted tein s springs/b6 shocks/eibach sways/prothane bushings.
I've not noticed any odd sounds, the bar is in the middle hole at the rear, and the softest on the front.
Just put Hotchkiss front and rear sways on my 2006 350z. I went 1st hole softest in rear and 2nd hole (2nd) softest in front ..... Makes a huge difference and drives a lot better. Less roll and turns flat! WELL WORTH THE MONEY!
Thanks! I'm a Z-NUT from waaaaay back. Went 30 years without one so I'm now making up for the lost time. Laff!
You're right. The Z is one of the most natural handling cars out there right out of the box. Drove mine for a year (learning it - and re-learning all of the driving skills I haden't used for "recreational driving" - in all types of conditions) before I found anything I wanted to do to it.
A good thread for the "sane" set-ups that work well for the majority of Z owners can be found here. <===Linked, not an embedded ad.
But in a nutshell, the Hotchkis bars are levered adjustable - 4 hole adjustment up front, 3 out back. My original set up (and it continues to this day despite a shock change) was softest setting up front (hole #1) - which is still some 22% stiffer than stock bar - and hole #2 rear for slightly higher roll stiffness.
BTW, you mention that a lot of people are running "medium front, soft-medium rear".... On the Z33 chassis, that's probably fine with the car reasonably close to neutral steer already. But, it's counter to what chassis tuners do with regard to front-rear roll stiffness....
IN GENERAL*:
Increase OVERSTEER (decrease understeer): Thicker/Stiffer on REAR BAR
Increase UNDERSTEER (decrease oversteer): Thick/Stiffer FRONT BAR
* Note: Yes yes, I know, it depends on the car and the application to which it is being tuned... which is why I said "IN GENERAL". Keep the flames down folks.
This, along with my original Bilstein/Eibach ProKit setup was perfect. Car turned in really sharp (I'm VERY big on laser like steering reflexes) and had enough give/breakaway on the rear to invoke a little tail out oversteer WHEN NEEDED.
I switched shocks to Koni adjustables as an "experiment" and installed the Bilsteins on my son's '06. (Long story... I think it's in that thread I ref'd above.)
Right now, my current "project" is taking out rebound from the shocks as it is much too stiff for "my" roads. I took out a half turn of rebound just this morning and it seems to be much better and closer to how I like it. It was a slight bit more tail happy than I care to run.... on public roads. Heh heh. I could also add camber (though technically it's "take out" camber since it's going negative) in the back but I'm pretty happy with -1-deg overall).
Anyhow, before I put anyone to sleep.... I'll just say that sway bars are the BEST and should be the FIRST suspension mod on any car. But it's not as sexy (meaning "visible") as "I'm gonna slam my car!"
Oh, and congrats on the new car!
Mic
Hi Mic,
Thanks for taking the time to answer my question thoroughly. I am surely going to use the same setup at you when my hotchkis sways come in. It sounds like we like our cars setup in the same way plus I trust your judgement from everything I've read of yours (I read that whole thread that you linked in, took about a day haha, but full of some great information).
I did question why people were running the medium hole in the front as, like you said, that only made sense that it would increase understeer. Perhaps some people prefer a tad to let them know they are beginning to push the car, who knows. I saw that somebody above also claimed that the 350 was an understeering pig from the factory.. I would assume they have never driven a subaru or other AWD vehicles because the 350 is the most neutral car from the factory that I've driven and that ads up to over 20 cars.. and I'm only 29 years old hahah. I am often told I have a problem selling car but I think I'll be holding onto this 350 for a longgg time.
I see the Koni's added roughness over the Bilsteins finally got to you lol. Thats awesome that you have the know-how to tear down a shock and revalve it. I wouldn't know the first thing about that. I like to do all my car work myself but that's one of those things I think I'll leave to the professionals for now haha.
Eventually I would like to do a spring/shock setup myself or maybe a capable coilover setup (only reason really is that I would like a flush fitting wheel/tire setup down the road and a GOOD coilover would be the best way to get a perfect fitment along with track ability). By flush setup, I mean flush with the fenders with probably a finger gaps worth of clearance. However, I will not run a stretched tire over a too wide width rim, nor will I run excessive camber to achieve this. Everybody has their likings and I respect that, but this whole "stanced" trend just isn't for me. I do need to research how taking away a bit of the natural rake of this car may influence handling as do I need to do more research on spring/shock combos to see if I could achieve what I want to do with just a quality combo like that, as that would be preferred. I like a good coilover but the facts are, it just isn't needed on the street and no matter how highly of an esteemed driver I believe myself to be, I probably can't gain much time on a coilover setup on the track (in THIS car) vs a quality spring/strut combo.
Thanks again for the advice! Oh, and now that I've become obsessed with the Z, my goal is to eventually restore (not necessarily to factory specs )a 280Z!
A lot of good points were mentioned above but ........ The car really needs to be driven at 10/10 to tune the suspension. A car that is set neutral for street use/aggressive canyon will typically be horrible at the full limit. You will never really know this unless you drive it all the full limit in its different stages and compare data ( normally G's and lap times )
My car started out on the track done stock , upgraded to sways ran a couple events playing with the softer setting , then I listened to Scott Bush (relentless auto sport ) and set to full stiff front and rear ( Hotchkiss) The car was 4 seconds slower in a almost 3 minute course , almost undrivable at the limit. As many would say, it felt like a race car daily driving on the streets. Back to different settings and lap times improved once again. Next was coilovers (BC) it took many events to see a slight improvement over stock , then added front camber ( helped a lot) then quality coilovers etc etc. My car went thru many stages and is constantly improving. Just this last weekend I swapped to stiffer front springs , dropped the front sway from hole 2/3 stagger to hole to hole 2 for a nice improvement with my current aero package.
Nothing in suspension is definite, driver input dictates a lot of the reaction (btw the Z understeers like a pig from the factory ) , little changes arnt as noticeable for street driving but can be huge when pushing the car for all it has.
Last thing, I run hotchkiss because of the published rates, I know how much I'm adding with equal adjustments. I found a good starting point to be hole 2 front (one up from full soft) and hole 1 (full soft rear ) this combo add a bit more rear stiffness, about 20% and a little stiffer overall.
Hi,
Thanks for the input. I do agree that a car needs to be driven at 10/10 to tune suspension. We need to see what the car will be doing at the limit, thats for sure, not to mention, many mods won't necessarily show themselves until nearing the limit. Full effects of sway bars is one of these mods.
Thankfully I do have a business lot near my house that is actually very good at testing new suspension mods. It is unlike most lots as the entrance has a quick left/right transition followed by a left long sweeper to come around the building which has a slight downhill grade, followed by a strong left that opens up to a wide open lot. I obviously only test here when the business is closed on the weekends, but as funny as it may sound, it does give me very good feedback on suspension mods as I am able to test the car at the limit without endangering myself or the public. Granted I cannot test high speed maneuvers over say 40 mph, but this gives me a good starting point and I can save those for the track.
I believe you may be a tad spoiled by the handling of the 350 as you state it is an understeering pig. Take no offense, as I'm joking about being spoiled but really, the 350 really impresses me in factory form. Of course it does have some notable understeer (as most factory stock cars do since people killing themselves usually isn't great for sales haha) but compared to other cars I've owned, it is much less. To be fair, I'm only comparing against a few performance subarus, mustangs, an evo and a number of other cars that just aren't worth comparing. I haven't driven any exotic cars or even a newer corvette, as I'm sure the 350 would be an understeering pig in comparison to those.
I'm just curious, why do you choose to run a higher rate in the front vs the rear bar? Even if this did contribute to an overall car (which surely it does) wouldn't that maintain much of the understeer rather than say the softest front setting? I'm not knocking your choice, as I'm sure you know your car very well and what you want out of it, just curious as to your outcome with that setup and why.
Thanks for the input. It's guys like you and Mic on the forums that make them worth reading.
Hi Mic,
Thanks for taking the time to answer my question thoroughly. I am surely going to use the same setup at you when my hotchkis sways come in. It sounds like we like our cars setup in the same way plus I trust your judgement from everything I've read of yours (I read that whole thread that you linked in, took about a day haha, but full of some great information).
I did question why people were running the medium hole in the front as, like you said, that only made sense that it would increase understeer. Perhaps some people prefer a tad to let them know they are beginning to push the car, who knows. I saw that somebody above also claimed that the 350 was an understeering pig from the factory.. I would assume they have never driven a subaru or other AWD vehicles because the 350 is the most neutral car from the factory that I've driven and that ads up to over 20 cars.. and I'm only 29 years old hahah. I am often told I have a problem selling car but I think I'll be holding onto this 350 for a longgg time.
I see the Koni's added roughness over the Bilsteins finally got to you lol. Thats awesome that you have the know-how to tear down a shock and revalve it. I wouldn't know the first thing about that. I like to do all my car work myself but that's one of those things I think I'll leave to the professionals for now haha.
Eventually I would like to do a spring/shock setup myself or maybe a capable coilover setup (only reason really is that I would like a flush fitting wheel/tire setup down the road and a GOOD coilover would be the best way to get a perfect fitment along with track ability). By flush setup, I mean flush with the fenders with probably a finger gaps worth of clearance. However, I will not run a stretched tire over a too wide width rim, nor will I run excessive camber to achieve this. Everybody has their likings and I respect that, but this whole "stanced" trend just isn't for me. I do need to research how taking away a bit of the natural rake of this car may influence handling as do I need to do more research on spring/shock combos to see if I could achieve what I want to do with just a quality combo like that, as that would be preferred. I like a good coilover but the facts are, it just isn't needed on the street and no matter how highly of an esteemed driver I believe myself to be, I probably can't gain much time on a coilover setup on the track (in THIS car) vs a quality spring/strut combo.
Thanks again for the advice! Oh, and now that I've become obsessed with the Z, my goal is to eventually restore (not necessarily to factory specs )a 280Z!
Understeer is my Volvo's middle name. That, and "Turning Radius Sucks". Great car but compared to my old Volvos that turned on a dime, this car is just.... a blundering mistake to try and make U-turns in.
Re: my Konis... I didn't re-valve them; just adjusted them back towards "softer". I don't trust myself to do any internal work on my shocks. That I leave to the experts.
Re: 280Z. Had 2 of 'em (and 2 carb'd S30s). GREAT cars! I've given some thought of getting another but the prices are very high (for low quality cars) and at the end of the day - and unless you pour some serious mod money into them - they're still nothing like the Z33. My OPINION of course but my current cars are sufficient money pits already.
My favorite S30 back in the day saw all kinds of different phases from stock motor to FI (anyone remember "BAE Turbosystems"?), spoilered and air-dammed to bar bumpers. It was being restored to stock when it got eaten by a red light running taxi. Despite the mods, any of my current Z's would run away from that car.
Understeer is my Volvo's middle name. That, and "Turning Radius Sucks". Great car but compared to my old Volvos that turned on a dime, this car is just.... a blundering mistake to try and make U-turns in.
Re: my Konis... I didn't re-valve them; just adjusted them back towards "softer". I don't trust myself to do any internal work on my shocks. That I leave to the experts.
Re: 280Z. Had 2 of 'em (and 2 carb'd S30s). GREAT cars! I've given some thought of getting another but the prices are very high (for low quality cars) and at the end of the day - and unless you pour some serious mod money into them - they're still nothing like the Z33. My OPINION of course but my current cars are sufficient money pits already.
My favorite S30 back in the day saw all kinds of different phases from stock motor to FI (anyone remember "BAE Turbosystems"?), spoilered and air-dammed to bar bumpers. It was being restored to stock when it got eaten by a red light running taxi. Despite the mods, any of my current Z's would run away from that car.
Anyhow, good luck with your car and have fun.
Mic
Haha yeah, that's a pet peeve of mine when a car can't turn in a small radius. I was happy to see that the 350 had a tighter turning radius than the Subaru I traded in.
I don't really know what I was thinking when I assumed you were revalving the Koni's yourself lol. I guess I assumed that even at the softest setting, they were a little harsh for your liking and you had taken it upon yourself to make it right. Agreed-- the internals of suspension can be left for the professionals.
As for the 280, I can't disagree that the z33 is a better performance vehicle, nor can I disagree that they do have a semi-hefty price tag. I guess it's just one of those cars that I would be proud to restore and take it out on sunday cruises and be different. That's a ways away from now so who knows, maybe I'll gain more wisdom in my years and stop wasting money on cars......nah.. probably not
But I'll stop derailing this thread now.. thanks again and always stay young at heart and keep tinkering with your cars!
I'm just curious, why do you choose to run a higher rate in the front vs the rear bar? Even if this did contribute to an overall car (which surely it does) wouldn't that maintain much of the understeer rather than say the softest front setting? I'm not knocking your choice, as I'm sure you know your car very well and what you want out of it, just curious as to your outcome with that setup and why.
Thanks for the input. It's guys like you and Mic on the forums that make them worth reading.
I'm running stiffer in the rear compared to factory settings.
Rear 80% stiffer
Front 48% stiffer
When running the hole 2/3 combo is roughly 65% stiffer up front.
Also remember my car is no close to stock now, but those where the common settings used thru development over the years.
My lack of staggered tires helps, my real LSD does a lot, my spring rates and aero all change the car a lot.
I'm running stiffer in the rear compared to factory settings.
Rear 80% stiffer
Front 48% stiffer
When running the hole 2/3 combo is roughly 65% stiffer up front.
Also remember my car is no close to stock now, but those where the common settings used thru development over the years.
My lack of staggered tires helps, my real LSD does a lot, my spring rates and aero all change the car a lot.
Oh ok, all makes sense now. I wasn't considering that you likely had other mods. Sounds like a real track monster you have there. I would love to eventually throw a quality LSD in mine as well. The viscous is very slow to react and not always willing to lock despite its low mileage. Clearly just a lower quality part in general.
Don't want to derail this thread, but what would you say were all the pros the LSD did for you and any cons?
Thanks for all your input. Half the fun of a new car for me is learning and researching all about it. You've been a great help.
I installed Hotchkis sway bars this weekend. Installation was straight forward except for breaking loose the endlink nuts - wow talk about a PITA! I have the front and rear sways set at 2 stiffness. I also installed new Powergrid Endlinks.
I installed the front sways first then drove the car for a day before installing the rear sways. I didn't notice much difference with just the fronts installed. Hard turns do have less body roll but normal driving on straight and curvy roads feel a little bit more confident then the OEM sway bars. I did have to adjust my endlinks as I did have some clunking. Putting the car on ramps and adjusting the endlinks solved the clunking issue.
Today I installed the rear sway bars. They are much easier to install then the front sway bars. Driving the car with both front and rear sways set to 2 stiffness made a very noticeable difference in ride quality on bumpy roads. First the squeaking noise from the rear endlinks is gone (thank god)! Second, when driving with the OEM setup on bumpy roads the car had a lot of side to side motion. My head would literally move side to side as the car drove down a bumpy street. With the Hotchkis sway bars installed the side to side movement is all most gone. My head barely moves at all while driving down these same bumpy roads. The car just "feels" much more stable then before and it doesn't squeak! So far I think its worth it.
I plan on driving her for a week to see how I like the current settings. So far I'm pretty happy with the setup, but I will adjust the front sways to 3 stiffness just to see how that feels. Hopefully my Bilstiens pss10's will be here by then...
I installed Hotchkis sway bars this weekend. Installation was straight forward except for breaking loose the endlink nuts - wow talk about a PITA! I have the front and rear sways set at 2 stiffness. I also installed new Powergrid Endlinks.
I installed the front sways first then drove the car for a day before installing the rear sways. I didn't notice much difference with just the fronts installed. Hard turns do have less body roll but normal driving on straight and curvy roads feel a little bit more confident then the OEM sway bars. I did have to adjust my endlinks as I did have some clunking. Putting the car on ramps and adjusting the endlinks solved the clunking issue.
Today I installed the rear sway bars. They are much easier to install then the front sway bars. Driving the car with both front and rear sways set to 2 stiffness made a very noticeable difference in ride quality on bumpy roads. First the squeaking noise from the rear endlinks is gone (thank god)! Second, when driving with the OEM setup on bumpy roads the car had a lot of side to side motion. My head would literally move side to side as the car drove down a bumpy street. With the Hotchkis sway bars installed the side to side movement is all most gone. My head barely moves at all while driving down these same bumpy roads. The car just "feels" much more stable then before and it doesn't squeak! So far I think its worth it.
I plan on driving her for a week to see how I like the current settings. So far I'm pretty happy with the setup, but I will adjust the front sways to 3 stiffness just to see how that feels. Hopefully my Bilstiens pss10's will be here by then...
Once I install all the other suspension components I'm taking it to either Z1 motorsports or Forged Performance to do a corner balance. Once that's done I'll think about testing it at its limits. Until then I'm going to enjoy the new components and continue to tweak the suspension because right now its still fun doing so.
I'm currently waiting on my Bilsteins Pss10s to show up so I can install them and my new Cusco UCA and rear SPC camber arms. I have no doubt once installed the sway bars may need more adjusting. In fact I'm counting on it.
I'll install them next Saturday. In preparation for the new coilovers I've adjusted the front sway bars to full soft(1). I still have the rears set to medium(2) setting. I'll adjust them to full soft in the next few days. I want feel the difference for each setting before installing the Pss10's.
I'm actually surprised how OEM like the suspension feels at this setting. The car rolls more in turns and over bumpy roads and just doesnt feel as tight. I was hoping full soft (which is 20% stiffer then stock) would feel much tighter.
Congrats on your PSS10's! One of the best investments thus far for my car, you will love it. I paired it with Cusco sway bars... there's only 2 settings for the front and none for the rear so I set soft in the front.
I like how my car handles so far even though I'm not too analytical about body roll... I know I just need supporting mods, that's not stock with my coils.
Last edited by stogey420time; 05-05-2015 at 06:57 AM.
04-22-2015, 06:38 AM
- in all types of conditions) before I found anything I wanted to do to it.
)a 280Z!
