str8dum1

iTrader: (11)

just an update to my post above.


Put in the 600cc nozzle and saw a nice drop in A:F. between .5 and 1 point above my spray zone of 8psi. Whoo hoo. Without meth, i had knock and my timing was retarded (that why AF looks funny at the top on the red graph). Exact same map, just meth on vs off.

The working meth, new return fuel system, and a new tune in a week in a half should be sweet!

athenG

iTrader: (2)

Good for you!! In a few weeks I'll be bringing my car to Julian for my Meth install and another Tune. Did you advance your timing on your Spray area?

denchan350gt

iTrader: (4)

I see you decided to keep your kit.

I should have my car back tuesday I'll post up pics of the install.

athenG

iTrader: (2)

Yeah, it was my first choice anyways but I might not use the Intake Sender so let me know if you still want it. If Julian think I should use it then I'll keep it.

str8dum1

iTrader: (11)

when i go back for a retune, i'm going to have a map with advanced timing on meth and a safer standard map without that i could spray on top of.

Ziggyrama

iTrader: (15)

Question to the crowd:

Does everybody set their injection kick-on threshold based on boost? Seems like a backwards way of doing it. Wouldn't you want to do it based on flow instead? Your flow will determine your load which is really what should set your kick-on point. 8psi with 50F IATs produces much different loads than 8psi and 90F IATs. Just seems inaccurate to me the way people are discussing this method of control.....or did I miss something in the discussion? I mean, the ambient conditions change daily so I think you'd want something a little more reliable as a method of control. Just throwing this out on the table. Thanks.

str8dum1

iTrader: (11)

i have a supercharger so load, flow and psi are all directly related. you can set the meth to come on with the UTEC on preset temps as well.

athenG

iTrader: (2)

Most FI'd cars here uses Map so it is easier to just use MAP as a trigger point. Most Meth kit out there uses MAP anyways so it is a proven technology, simple but it works. My Kit is capable of using IAT (I have an Intake Sender) as a trigger point together with Boost, so as boost rises and IAT rises, I have an option to spray more meth. I can also put different weight on them, for ex., I can have boost set to be 70% and IAT at 30% and my kit will progressively spray with that.

Ziggyrama

iTrader: (15)

Cool. Sounds like there's a lot of flexibility in this setup. But it seems like it's a backwards way of accomplishing the task. I don't question that it works but it seems a bit complicated for what it needs to do. Seems that having it kick on automatically at certain flow rate would be the easiest way of doing this since that will make tuning easier later. you'll know the locations of the map where you'll have alcohol in the mix and that just simplifies things. Or maybe I am oversimplifying things

zerosec

iTrader: (3)

cylinder pressures and engine loading go up with FI r8 ?

athenG

iTrader: (2)

Well actually it is easier (I'm not a Tuner by the way). Since you can have your meth spray at certain PSI regardless of RPM, then it is easier to make adjustment in your Map Table coz all you need to touch is that Load (psi) column (Speed Density Mode). I think the IAT is important but the RPM is also important, 8psi at 3000rpm has a different air flow compared to 8psi at 6000rpm. Knock tend to happen in the Mid RPM around Peak TQ. The good thing is, that is were the meth kit spray the most. The draw back of most basic Meth kit is that it will spray the same amount regardless of RPM though. There are High end Meth kit that are RPM dependent but they cost a lot.

str8dum1

iTrader: (11)

ya those more expensive kits are better if you are really tryin to tweak for more power. basic kits are good for safety and marginal gains.

Ziggyrama

iTrader: (15)

Yes, progressive kits are nice. You can have variable flow so you don't waste alcohol when you don't really need it and you can turn up the juice when you need that extra octane.

BTW, boost and load are not the same thing. To determine load, you really need to look at engine speed (RPM) and how much air in grams you're ingesting. This is why doing it based on actual air metering device would make most sense to me because that directly corresponds to load which is very easily tunable. For example, you set your controller to spray X based on 4psi scenario at 4K RPMs which is really some load Y. You bump your timing up because you can and you think you're done. Well, not quite Next day, things get a little cool outside, you go for a ride, hit 2.5 psi roughly at that same RPM and you're already at the load you were yesterday...but wait, you didn't reach your boost threshold yet. Your ECU bumps up the timing but you got no alcohol yet....ping....ping.....ping. See what I mean?

Granted, colder air will be more detonation resistant but if you're on the fence, you got serious timing advancement but no octane to go with it, you can still get some major detonation. In reality, your kick-on threshold should happen at moderate loads where even if you get some detonation, you won't see damage to the engine. Low load knock is never good but it won't do damage like high load knock will. I just wanted to illustrate my train of thought.

BTW, I don't get why these meth kits are so damn expensive. It's just a collection of tubing, a bottle tank and 1 controller that has probably $20 in parts in it. I've considered building my own kit before and making my own, basic controller. For all you DIY guys, here's how simple a progressive controller can be:

http://autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=1539

athenG

iTrader: (2)

Most Fi'd car here has an EMS that has full control of their timing. I'm using Utec right now using MAP and speed Density and lots of other people uses them here or a Full Standalone EMS (MAF is so yesterday ). I guess there is a little misunderstanding, I was referring to the load column in my Map which is basically your PSI(Boost). It don't matter coz the timing is set through PSI and the ECU has no control over it. We never let the ECU control timing since that is what cause all the Blown Engine way back then. At least in Utec, we have a separate Map Table for our Timing that we use when on boost (BoostXRPM), no matter what happen outside, we have a preset timing that we want on various RPM and PSI. Regular progressive kit will be suffice since we know when the Meth will spray and all we have to do is tweak the Load column (PSI) for out timing and Fuel and we are set.

Like I said I'm not tuner so maybe I'm missing something. By the way, I'm going to use meth for safety and not for more power so I don't think I will be touching my Timing Map, ok maybe 1-2 deg at the most but that is going to a different MAP (Utec can handle 5 Maps).

Speqz

question, on a car with stock block @ about 400~whp would it be safe to use water\meth to run more power or are the rods still compromised @ 450~whp?

Ziggyrama

iTrader: (15)

Ok, I think you're confusing Load and Boost. They are not the same thing and I think you should separate them when you think about how the load based maps work. They often go in hand and one generally drives the other. Most of the time, more boost means more load. Boost is a measure of positive pressure in respect to atmospheric pressure. Load is a measure of air mass. So, when UTEC says load, that does not mean boost. Why is it important to distinguish the 2? Glad you asked It really comes down to air flow which is measure of air mass/unit of time. How can you drive more flow? One way is to increase the pressure (boost). You'll end up pushing more air mass per unit of time which will increase your load. That is why you see load increase with boost. There is also another variable in this equation: temperature. Temperature has great influence on air density. Colder air is denser, meaning it has more molecules in a unit of volume which means higher load because it's technically more oxygen in the same measure of space. Here's the kicker....the pressure is the same. You can have 2 different loads with the same boost. On a 85F day, you reach your 3psi of boost, you flow X amount of air which means load 3. Your alcy kit is set to kick on at 3psi and you set up your timing map based on that. Take another day, 60F, now your air is denser. You decided to take it easy, you only hit 1psi but because you got denser air, you actually hit the same load of 3 with less boost. Your timing got bumped because you hit the load you wanted but wait, your alcohol isn't flowing yet because you set it based on boost, not load See the problem here? I hope that makes sense to you. Perfectly realistic scenario. I've seen it million times in MA since we get lots of temp swings here. You can get the same air flow with 50% throttle, half the boost on a winter day that you would on a hot summer day in WOT.

There's a reason why UTEC is set up based on load, not boost. Load is the truth as it measures mass, which is a discrete quantifier that determines your fueling and timing. Boost is a way of influencing air mass but it's not the same thing. I hope my rant made sense.

MAF vs. MAP. Oh boy. They're both good for various things and have advantages/disadvantages. I suspect most guys ditched the MAF because they're maxing it out with FI. Most MAFs max out around 300g/s and with moderate boost, you'll easily exceed that. MAP seems to make more sense but MAP is not exactly accurate. The map has to be carefully set up for the particular engine based on volumetric efficiency for that engine. It is slower to react (that is good and bad) and if you changed your VE engine characteristics like doing cams, that calibration is out the window...you'll have to rebuild your MAP based map. MAF can be a pain if you can't get good, laminar flow around the sensor which is a problem with some big HP engines. A lot of turbo cars run on MAF today as it's accurate and self compensating. The key is getting intake design right to get good, consistent readings. I don't think I'd call MAF yesterday's technology MAP can be more pain than what it's worth.

athenG

iTrader: (2)

/\ I know what you are talking about regarding temp changes and Air Density changes. I'm just making it a little simpler since base on my logs and Utec, it don't matter what is the ambient temp since my timing will not change. For example, I may hit 5psi at around 3300rpm when the temp is around 80F, now my timing map is set to run 18 deg at 5psiX3300rpm. Now the weather got colder (40F) and I start to hit 8 psi at 3300rpm, now my timing map is set to run 16 deg at that area (8psiX3300rpm). Utec does have a Temp Compensation feature (Not the best) but I'm only using the A/F adjustment and left my timing unchanged.

The way I see this is that my timing is already laid out using PSIXRPM from 2000RPM all the way to 8000RPM and boost from 0psi to 10psi, I may hit boost early coz of colder weather but I already have a preset timing I want to run at any RPM and Boost. Yes, 8psi at 90F has a different Air flow compare to 8psi at 40F but Utec is already compensating for that change right?

I just used the word Load since Utec use the Term Load Column which in reality it is PSI/Boost. Utec has 10 Load Column that you can set (I have mine 1-10psi). Now if my Meth kit start to spraying at 5psi then all I have to do is Tune my 50% load column (that is 5psi in my setting) all they way to 100% load column (10psi) since that is where I know I have Meth to back me up. I think I'm getting more confuse here It look easy in theory right but I think will still have my tuner do the tune for me.

athenG

iTrader: (2)

Like I said in the previous post, there are a lot of FI'd cars using Utec and most of them if not all uses MAP and not MAF. This came from the Utec Manual that will explain what is Used in their Load Column.

11. MAP Minimum Value for Mapping is the lowest MAP value in psi for the MAP referenced load columns in the fuel and timing maps (the 10% column). This parameter is only used when MAP is selected as the Load Indicator in the Open Loop fuelling Parameters menu.
12. MAP Maximum Value for Mapping is the highest MAP value in psi for the MAP referenced columns in the fuel and timing maps (the 100% column). This parameter is only used when MAP is selected as the Load Indicator in the Open Loop fuelling Parameters menu.

str8dum1

iTrader: (11)

in the UTEC with speed density, load is boost.

athenG

iTrader: (2)

Does Utimate, Fcon, Haltech, ProEFI uses PSI (350Z version) as their load indicator?