New NA Build for my G35 Coupe!
01-08-2009, 09:12 PM
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I wasn't there when Jeremy did it, but...
My car is tuned in Manifold Absolute Pressure mode with a Haltech. I suspect he just read it straight from the Haltech data logs or real time display. He could have thrown a vacuum gauge on and used that, but I don't know for sure.
My car is tuned in Manifold Absolute Pressure mode with a Haltech. I suspect he just read it straight from the Haltech data logs or real time display. He could have thrown a vacuum gauge on and used that, but I don't know for sure.
01-24-2009, 08:22 AM
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hey adam,
after studying the few NA motors we have built, we have noticed that above 5000 rpms the car starts to pull vacuum again in the plenum. close to -1 psi in some cars. i would love to open up the throttle body, maf housing, plenum neck and everything else that is 2.75 inches and see if we could keep it at 0 to redline.
01-25-2009, 09:37 PM
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hey adam,
after studying the few NA motors we have built, we have noticed that above 5000 rpms the car starts to pull vacuum again in the plenum. close to -1 psi in some cars. i would love to open up the throttle body, maf housing, plenum neck and everything else that is 2.75 inches and see if we could keep it at 0 to redline.
after studying the few NA motors we have built, we have noticed that above 5000 rpms the car starts to pull vacuum again in the plenum. close to -1 psi in some cars. i would love to open up the throttle body, maf housing, plenum neck and everything else that is 2.75 inches and see if we could keep it at 0 to redline.
I have been doing a lot of research about opening up the entire air intake. The plenum neck and drive by wire are difficult to overcome, but I've found out a few things since the last time we talked. I'll give you a buzz after you get settled up there.
01-26-2009, 10:30 AM
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I believe the air box was in for the 312 run, but I'm not sure... I wasn't there.
The first dyno runs were only meant to get the car tuned. They weren't an all out exhaustive session to make the most peak horsepower ever. I suspect it would make more power now simply because it has more miles on it and is pretty much fully broken in.
I'm working on some improvements and will post back if they help. I like to post results after they are proven.
The first dyno runs were only meant to get the car tuned. They weren't an all out exhaustive session to make the most peak horsepower ever. I suspect it would make more power now simply because it has more miles on it and is pretty much fully broken in.
I'm working on some improvements and will post back if they help. I like to post results after they are proven.
03-25-2009, 10:22 PM
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It's been a while since I posted anything about my build. I've been working on improving a few things with the guys at S&R Performance in Tampa, FL. I'll post some updates, soon.
No. I haven't really collected any oil in my catch can yet. I think my engine has better rings than the ones that are causing the oil consumption problem. However, I will keep watch on my catch can.
I drilled out my PCV valve and ran it to a catch can when I installed my new plenum. I also removed the driver's side valve cover crankcase outlet and plugged the fitting in the air intake. I don't want any oil or unburned hydrocarbons going in the engine from now on.
Hahaha...
Yes, I did! I also installed a Pop Charger. After looking at a Pop Charger up close, I think it will flow a lot more air that the OEM air box. Unfortunately, it is also a lot louder.
.
No. I haven't really collected any oil in my catch can yet. I think my engine has better rings than the ones that are causing the oil consumption problem. However, I will keep watch on my catch can.
I drilled out my PCV valve and ran it to a catch can when I installed my new plenum. I also removed the driver's side valve cover crankcase outlet and plugged the fitting in the air intake. I don't want any oil or unburned hydrocarbons going in the engine from now on.
Hahaha...
Yes, I did! I also installed a Pop Charger. After looking at a Pop Charger up close, I think it will flow a lot more air that the OEM air box. Unfortunately, it is also a lot louder.
.
03-26-2009, 08:29 AM
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I don’t agree that it makes "zero" difference... however I do agree its not as much of an issue while moving... but sitting at stop lights - and particularly staging at the drag strip when engine bay is getting heat soaked, I prefer to have what little bit advantage I can get...
03-26-2009, 08:38 AM
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The MAF sits in the same spot no matter what filter you are running. The AIT sensor is in the MAF, and as such, heat soak is the same no matter where you put the filter - in front of the rad support, behind it, etc. The only thing a cold air does on these cars is allow the temps to drop slightly quicker once the car moves. I've got nearly 20 hours of datalogs with every conceivable filter location, that I did as part of making the ITB setup last summer.
If you want less of the peak/valley affect, you could coat the MAF housing, or wrap it (or do a water/meth/NOS injection setup). This will make the temps more consistent when the car is sitting vs moving. I thought about doing it on my car, but don't like how the wraps look, and just never got around to coating it. I also realized that since I dont drag race, I really didn't care if it took an extra 20-30 seconds for the temps to return to a nominal range once I was moving. Even on a very hot summer night, with relatively high humidity, temps literally plummeted within 20 seconds of the car moving even at only 20-30 mph. Short of those things, nothing you do is going to make appreciable difference in temps when the car is just sitting idling. Best bet when in the staging lanes is shut the car off, and only run it when you need to move it.
If you want less of the peak/valley affect, you could coat the MAF housing, or wrap it (or do a water/meth/NOS injection setup). This will make the temps more consistent when the car is sitting vs moving. I thought about doing it on my car, but don't like how the wraps look, and just never got around to coating it. I also realized that since I dont drag race, I really didn't care if it took an extra 20-30 seconds for the temps to return to a nominal range once I was moving. Even on a very hot summer night, with relatively high humidity, temps literally plummeted within 20 seconds of the car moving even at only 20-30 mph. Short of those things, nothing you do is going to make appreciable difference in temps when the car is just sitting idling. Best bet when in the staging lanes is shut the car off, and only run it when you need to move it.
Last edited by Z1 Performance; 03-26-2009 at 08:40 AM.
03-26-2009, 09:38 AM
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The MAF sits in the same spot no matter what filter you are running. The AIT sensor is in the MAF, and as such, heat soak is the same no matter where you put the filter - in front of the rad support, behind it, etc. The only thing a cold air does on these cars is allow the temps to drop slightly quicker once the car moves. I've got nearly 20 hours of datalogs with every conceivable filter location, that I did as part of making the ITB setup last summer.
If you want less of the peak/valley affect, you could coat the MAF housing, or wrap it (or do a water/meth/NOS injection setup). This will make the temps more consistent when the car is sitting vs moving. I thought about doing it on my car, but don't like how the wraps look, and just never got around to coating it. I also realized that since I dont drag race, I really didn't care if it took an extra 20-30 seconds for the temps to return to a nominal range once I was moving. Even on a very hot summer night, with relatively high humidity, temps literally plummeted within 20 seconds of the car moving even at only 20-30 mph. Short of those things, nothing you do is going to make appreciable difference in temps when the car is just sitting idling. Best bet when in the staging lanes is shut the car off, and only run it when you need to move it.
If you want less of the peak/valley affect, you could coat the MAF housing, or wrap it (or do a water/meth/NOS injection setup). This will make the temps more consistent when the car is sitting vs moving. I thought about doing it on my car, but don't like how the wraps look, and just never got around to coating it. I also realized that since I dont drag race, I really didn't care if it took an extra 20-30 seconds for the temps to return to a nominal range once I was moving. Even on a very hot summer night, with relatively high humidity, temps literally plummeted within 20 seconds of the car moving even at only 20-30 mph. Short of those things, nothing you do is going to make appreciable difference in temps when the car is just sitting idling. Best bet when in the staging lanes is shut the car off, and only run it when you need to move it.
I'm not telling JB he should have done something different - I'm asking why he didn’t... even as incrementally minute as heat shielding and drawing air from grille may be; I'm not sure what the benefit of doing to opposite is? Looks? Convenience? – BTW, I’m not suggesting there is a “right” answer (the only time something is “right” is how I feel it should be on my car – that doesn’t mean its “right” for someone else)… I’m just wondering why he went to route he did – as in what’s the benefit?
Last edited by OCG35; 03-26-2009 at 09:40 AM.
03-26-2009, 09:56 AM
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The MAF/AIT is measuring the temp of the air passing by it, and the ecu bases its fuel calculations based off that data coupled with tps, etc. The air is going to heat up as it runs its course to the combustion chamber - the more things you coat and the faster you can move the air, the more minimal the change is.
As for the air temp pre and post rad support while the car is moving, you would be surprised. I had 7 separate channels logging various positions in the engine bay, outside the engine bay, and the differentials between channels vs ambient were less than 20 degrees with the car moving at 60 mph. This greatest difference was between the sensor mounted on top of my NISMO damper (front bumper, dead center), and the passenger side rear of the engine bay, at the rear corner of the valvecover. The differentials between the other sensors were lower. The temp difference between the throttle body and the front bumper area was less than 10 degrees at speed. To me, wasn't enough to warrant the time of taking everything apart to coat it, etc. There is alot of air movement through the engine bay, at least on my car, and it helps keeps these temps pretty consistent. All this was done with my stock hood - not sure how my vented hood would affect it. I bought this logger specifically to measure these things while working on the ITB's last summer. My headers are coated, no heatshielding of any kind on them
Coating things helps...maf housing, headers, manifold, etc. All depends how crazy you want to go. Since I am not building an airbox yet, and my air vents in the hood are not huge, I am going to coat my new manifold fully, from the lower collector on upwards. It's easy to do at this point since everything is apart, and it will help it look cleaner in the long run. Any heatsoak properties it has is another added benefit
All he is trying to do based on his past posts, I believe, is to free up airflow and reduce the vacuum effects he was seeing at WOT in the upper rpms. The larger volume of air you can pull in, the lower this vacuum should theoretically be. Thankfully the popcharger is a cheap enough experiment to do to see if it helps without going whole hog into more costly changes
As for the air temp pre and post rad support while the car is moving, you would be surprised. I had 7 separate channels logging various positions in the engine bay, outside the engine bay, and the differentials between channels vs ambient were less than 20 degrees with the car moving at 60 mph. This greatest difference was between the sensor mounted on top of my NISMO damper (front bumper, dead center), and the passenger side rear of the engine bay, at the rear corner of the valvecover. The differentials between the other sensors were lower. The temp difference between the throttle body and the front bumper area was less than 10 degrees at speed. To me, wasn't enough to warrant the time of taking everything apart to coat it, etc. There is alot of air movement through the engine bay, at least on my car, and it helps keeps these temps pretty consistent. All this was done with my stock hood - not sure how my vented hood would affect it. I bought this logger specifically to measure these things while working on the ITB's last summer. My headers are coated, no heatshielding of any kind on them
Coating things helps...maf housing, headers, manifold, etc. All depends how crazy you want to go. Since I am not building an airbox yet, and my air vents in the hood are not huge, I am going to coat my new manifold fully, from the lower collector on upwards. It's easy to do at this point since everything is apart, and it will help it look cleaner in the long run. Any heatsoak properties it has is another added benefit
All he is trying to do based on his past posts, I believe, is to free up airflow and reduce the vacuum effects he was seeing at WOT in the upper rpms. The larger volume of air you can pull in, the lower this vacuum should theoretically be. Thankfully the popcharger is a cheap enough experiment to do to see if it helps without going whole hog into more costly changes
03-26-2009, 10:14 AM
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I have done extensive Cipher logging with my stock airbox and with the new Pop Charger. The intake air temperature gets much hotter when the car is still and idling with the Pop Charger, but the temperatures drop very quickly. I was surprised at how fast the temps drop once the car starts moving. I logged my car with the airbox one night and then drove the same route the next night with the Pop Charger. The while-moving differences were minimal even though it was a bit hotter the next night.
My second reason is that I plan to change to one of Adam's 3 inch MAF tubes the next time we tune my car. I put the Cosworth and Pop Charger on at home and will drive it over for the tune. Brian, S&R's Tuner, advised me not to put the 3 inch MAF tube on before I drive the car over. It seems that the 3 inch MAF tube changes things quite a bit, so it's best to swap it out at the shop. I'll probably do it right on the dyno. I made sure everything fits while my car was home.
I also didn't want to have to fool with all the aluminum shielding plates when I swap the MAF tubes... plus, I don't think the shielding will make any difference on the dyno... maybe the shielding would hold the hot air in since there are only two shop fans cooling the engine.
That is exactly what I found out, too. It makes almost no difference at all. It is surprising how fast the temperature drops once the car is moving.
I don’t agree that it makes "zero" difference... however I do agree its not as much of an issue while moving... but sitting at stop lights - and particularly staging at the drag strip when engine bay is getting heat soaked, I prefer to have what little bit advantage I can get...
03-26-2009, 10:35 AM
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I've wrapped the MAF housing in gold foil (didn’t make an appreciable difference in temps – with headers - I didn’t have the gold foil pre-headers). I data logged with engine running all the way through staging and with engine off and pushing car - I posted the results in another thread - I've also had lizard skin thermal coating - which did help a bit (prior to headers)... My mention of the open filter isn’t regarding the intake temps measured by the MAF sensor - its referring to the temp of the air actually making it to the combustion chamber... as you stated, once moving its not so much an issue (however, air drawn from grille will still be colder than air drawn from engine compartment, even at speed)... as for MAF sensor temp readings, I’m working on shielding the headers – its the best alternative I can think of (it wont be an easy task since the Crawford headers leave very little space)…
I'm not telling JB he should have done something different - I'm asking why he didn’t... even as incrementally minute as heat shielding and drawing air from grille may be; I'm not sure what the benefit of doing to opposite is? Looks? Convenience? – BTW, I’m not suggesting there is a “right” answer (the only time something is “right” is how I feel it should be on my car – that doesn’t mean its “right” for someone else)… I’m just wondering why he went to route he did – as in what’s the benefit?
I'm not telling JB he should have done something different - I'm asking why he didn’t... even as incrementally minute as heat shielding and drawing air from grille may be; I'm not sure what the benefit of doing to opposite is? Looks? Convenience? – BTW, I’m not suggesting there is a “right” answer (the only time something is “right” is how I feel it should be on my car – that doesn’t mean its “right” for someone else)… I’m just wondering why he went to route he did – as in what’s the benefit?
It's nice to see that you, Adam , and I are all logging our mods. I like to eliminate all the guesswork and find out my own answers. Some good information in these last few posts.
I just posted the picture of my Cosworth plenum to show that I had indeed thought about getting one. Now that I've hooked up with S&R Performance and their Tuner, I plan to try lots of different things.
The MAF/AIT is measuring the temp of the air passing by it, and the ecu bases its fuel calculations based off that data coupled with tps, etc. The air is going to heat up as it runs its course to the combustion chamber - the more things you coat and the faster you can move the air, the more minimal the change is.
As for the air temp pre and post rad support while the car is moving, you would be surprised. I had 7 separate channels logging various positions in the engine bay, outside the engine bay, and the differentials between channels vs ambient were less than 20 degrees with the car moving at 60 mph. This greatest difference was between the sensor mounted on top of my NISMO damper (front bumper, dead center), and the passenger side rear of the engine bay, at the rear corner of the valvecover. The differentials between the other sensors were lower. The temp difference between the throttle body and the front bumper area was less than 10 degrees at speed. To me, wasn't enough to warrant the time of taking everything apart to coat it, etc. There is alot of air movement through the engine bay, at least on my car, and it helps keeps these temps pretty consistent. All this was done with my stock hood - not sure how my vented hood would affect it. I bought this logger specifically to measure these things while working on the ITB's last summer. My headers are coated, no heatshielding of any kind on them
Coating things helps...maf housing, headers, manifold, etc. All depends how crazy you want to go. Since I am not building an airbox yet, and my air vents in the hood are not huge, I am going to coat my new manifold fully, from the lower collector on upwards. It's easy to do at this point since everything is apart, and it will help it look cleaner in the long run. Any heatsoak properties it has is another added benefit
All he is trying to do based on his past posts, I believe, is to free up airflow and reduce the vacuum effects he was seeing at WOT in the upper rpms. The larger volume of air you can pull in, the lower this vacuum should theoretically be. Thankfully the popcharger is a cheap enough experiment to do to see if it helps without going whole hog into more costly changes
As for the air temp pre and post rad support while the car is moving, you would be surprised. I had 7 separate channels logging various positions in the engine bay, outside the engine bay, and the differentials between channels vs ambient were less than 20 degrees with the car moving at 60 mph. This greatest difference was between the sensor mounted on top of my NISMO damper (front bumper, dead center), and the passenger side rear of the engine bay, at the rear corner of the valvecover. The differentials between the other sensors were lower. The temp difference between the throttle body and the front bumper area was less than 10 degrees at speed. To me, wasn't enough to warrant the time of taking everything apart to coat it, etc. There is alot of air movement through the engine bay, at least on my car, and it helps keeps these temps pretty consistent. All this was done with my stock hood - not sure how my vented hood would affect it. I bought this logger specifically to measure these things while working on the ITB's last summer. My headers are coated, no heatshielding of any kind on them
Coating things helps...maf housing, headers, manifold, etc. All depends how crazy you want to go. Since I am not building an airbox yet, and my air vents in the hood are not huge, I am going to coat my new manifold fully, from the lower collector on upwards. It's easy to do at this point since everything is apart, and it will help it look cleaner in the long run. Any heatsoak properties it has is another added benefit
All he is trying to do based on his past posts, I believe, is to free up airflow and reduce the vacuum effects he was seeing at WOT in the upper rpms. The larger volume of air you can pull in, the lower this vacuum should theoretically be. Thankfully the popcharger is a cheap enough experiment to do to see if it helps without going whole hog into more costly changes
I'm hoping the Cosworth plenum, Pop Charger, and 3 inch MAF tube make a noticeable difference. Thanks for the plenum and MAF tube, BTW... Good service as always, Adam.
03-26-2009, 10:46 AM
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^^^ thanks for the explanation JB... it makes sense to keep as is until you install and tune with bigger diameter MAF housing (I look forward to those results btw)
As for the temps cooling quickly - unfortunately I found that not to be the case so much when I data-logged at the drag strip - I need to dig up that thread... but the intake temps were reading crazy high at the line and didn’t drop much by 1/8 mile - and not nearly as much as I would have anticipated after 1/4 finish line... On a road course, it’s not nearly as much of an issue... I purposely did several 1/4 miles runs (some with engine running and some shut down in staging lanes) - my objective was to determine specifically what we are talking about in here = how fast the temps drop... I found that they are crazy high at start line, and still way out-a-whack by finish line... this was all after headers (which are Jet Hot coated) - the heat from headers has really created problems for me and I've been testing, and trying different things to maintain temps - I have some ideas, just not any time (yet) to implement them.
Anyway - I like your projects and progress JB... and look forward to reading further results
As for the temps cooling quickly - unfortunately I found that not to be the case so much when I data-logged at the drag strip - I need to dig up that thread... but the intake temps were reading crazy high at the line and didn’t drop much by 1/8 mile - and not nearly as much as I would have anticipated after 1/4 finish line... On a road course, it’s not nearly as much of an issue... I purposely did several 1/4 miles runs (some with engine running and some shut down in staging lanes) - my objective was to determine specifically what we are talking about in here = how fast the temps drop... I found that they are crazy high at start line, and still way out-a-whack by finish line... this was all after headers (which are Jet Hot coated) - the heat from headers has really created problems for me and I've been testing, and trying different things to maintain temps - I have some ideas, just not any time (yet) to implement them.
Anyway - I like your projects and progress JB... and look forward to reading further results