My Progress with Cipher (charts included)
09-08-2006, 01:08 AM
#1
My Progress with Cipher (charts included)
I've been messing around with cipher, trying to see where my AFR and timing needs improvement.
Currently this is on my learned fuel map (no ecu reset). I am partially posting this here for my own information, but feel free to follow along or post comments if you want to.
Plans for tomorrow/saturday: do another run just like this one, then reset fuel map, and try again. Compare results and see what happens to timing and air/fuel.
Current mods: mrev2 + 5/16" spacer. I have not made any changes using cipher yet, just datalogged so far.
Future mods ready to be installed: kinetix high flow cats, greddy EU
First 2 graphs are a 2nd gear run to redline. Second 2 graphs are a 3rd gear run to redline.
Blue AFR: Bank 1
Red AFR: Bank 2
Edit: The really cool thing about this is you can view the intake mass flow of air, as well as the intake air temperature. That means you can install let's say a CAI or a popcharger and actually PROVE whether it's making a difference for the better or for worse. REALLY awesome software, BIG UPS to UpRev and AAM.
-Mike (has never said "big ups" before)
Currently this is on my learned fuel map (no ecu reset). I am partially posting this here for my own information, but feel free to follow along or post comments if you want to.
Plans for tomorrow/saturday: do another run just like this one, then reset fuel map, and try again. Compare results and see what happens to timing and air/fuel.
Current mods: mrev2 + 5/16" spacer. I have not made any changes using cipher yet, just datalogged so far.
Future mods ready to be installed: kinetix high flow cats, greddy EU
First 2 graphs are a 2nd gear run to redline. Second 2 graphs are a 3rd gear run to redline.
Blue AFR: Bank 1
Red AFR: Bank 2
Edit: The really cool thing about this is you can view the intake mass flow of air, as well as the intake air temperature. That means you can install let's say a CAI or a popcharger and actually PROVE whether it's making a difference for the better or for worse. REALLY awesome software, BIG UPS to UpRev and AAM.
-Mike (has never said "big ups" before)
Last edited by Wired 24/7; 09-08-2006 at 01:11 AM.
09-08-2006, 06:18 AM
#2
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Can you try logging your cams too?
Your timing logs are interesting. From 3k to 5k, the plotted curve of your timing seems to be the inverse of the typical torque curve with the mrev/mrev2.
Your timing logs are interesting. From 3k to 5k, the plotted curve of your timing seems to be the inverse of the typical torque curve with the mrev/mrev2.
09-08-2006, 08:04 AM
#3
Originally Posted by trey.hutcheson
Can you try logging your cams too?
Your timing logs are interesting. From 3k to 5k, the plotted curve of your timing seems to be the inverse of the typical torque curve with the mrev/mrev2.
Your timing logs are interesting. From 3k to 5k, the plotted curve of your timing seems to be the inverse of the typical torque curve with the mrev/mrev2.
Here you go:
P.S. I don't understand what this chart means. Anyone can explain it to me?
09-08-2006, 10:42 AM
#5
Originally Posted by Hydrazine
Its essentially showing the change in relative valve overlap Vs RPM.
Maximizing fuel economy at cruising RPM and maximizing power everywhere else.
Maximizing fuel economy at cruising RPM and maximizing power everywhere else.
-Mike (goes to pull out his book on how to tune EMS's)
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09-09-2006, 09:41 AM
#11
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you're car needs alot of tuning work...alot going on, and not much of it is good
you're not getting anywhere near full cam timing advance, your ignition timing curve and AFR's are all over the place (looks like knock)
Resetting the ecu will certainly work, but only short term - your car needs a tune badly
you're not getting anywhere near full cam timing advance, your ignition timing curve and AFR's are all over the place (looks like knock)
Resetting the ecu will certainly work, but only short term - your car needs a tune badly
09-09-2006, 11:15 AM
#12
Originally Posted by Z1 Performance
you're car needs alot of tuning work...alot going on, and not much of it is good
you're not getting anywhere near full cam timing advance, your ignition timing curve and AFR's are all over the place (looks like knock)
Resetting the ecu will certainly work, but only short term - your car needs a tune badly
you're not getting anywhere near full cam timing advance, your ignition timing curve and AFR's are all over the place (looks like knock)
Resetting the ecu will certainly work, but only short term - your car needs a tune badly
I don't think the AFR's all over the place is a result of knock. Since this was done on the street, if a wheel spins slightly I go to a low-load situation . Not all the AFR runs are all over the place like that.
09-09-2006, 11:33 AM
#14
Originally Posted by Z1 Performance
could be....but that timing map aint looking so good either though, and it seems to correspond to your afr curve
Given that, the timing doesn't look too bad.
But I'll agree I could use some tuning, and rest assured I will be getting some.
09-09-2006, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Z1 Performance
you're car needs alot of tuning work...alot going on, and not much of it is good
you're not getting anywhere near full cam timing advance, your ignition timing curve and AFR's are all over the place (looks like knock)
Resetting the ecu will certainly work, but only short term - your car needs a tune badly
you're not getting anywhere near full cam timing advance, your ignition timing curve and AFR's are all over the place (looks like knock)
Resetting the ecu will certainly work, but only short term - your car needs a tune badly
http://home.comcast.net/~dovla/G35/20060827/chart1.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~dovla/G35/2..._INJ-Pulse.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~dovla/G35/20060413/timing.jpg
Suggestions are appreciated and I am all ears for tuning advice, as I am sure Wired 24/7 and many others are.
09-09-2006, 03:26 PM
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Damn I just wrote this whole long reply and it disappeared
Anyway, I know as far as cam timing, from what my contacts in Japan have told me, the max advance is 45 degrees. Now, whether that means the max advance the system can give is 45 degrees, or, if that's what the car should actually do, I could not say, as I've never logged the cam timing on my car (I figure since I have no means to adjust it, it sorta is what it is).
The thing that is interesting to me in comparing the 2 logs is ingition timing. Dovla's is much smoother, gets more total advance and has far fewer peaks and valley's when compared to wired's. My timing curve with the flash looked alot like Wired's car when we logged it through the utec initially. 95% of the tuning we did was smoothing the curve out and getting it to stay much flatter through the revs. I wish I had a copy of the logs (there were alot...it took us all day to do!), but they disappeared. Once I tune and dyno my new setup though, I'll be sure to post copies of it so people can see.
What I don't understand though is dovla's AFR curves in the first log vs the second - they are totally dissimilar from what I can see. Was that the same run? Both WOT?
Anyway, I know as far as cam timing, from what my contacts in Japan have told me, the max advance is 45 degrees. Now, whether that means the max advance the system can give is 45 degrees, or, if that's what the car should actually do, I could not say, as I've never logged the cam timing on my car (I figure since I have no means to adjust it, it sorta is what it is).
The thing that is interesting to me in comparing the 2 logs is ingition timing. Dovla's is much smoother, gets more total advance and has far fewer peaks and valley's when compared to wired's. My timing curve with the flash looked alot like Wired's car when we logged it through the utec initially. 95% of the tuning we did was smoothing the curve out and getting it to stay much flatter through the revs. I wish I had a copy of the logs (there were alot...it took us all day to do!), but they disappeared. Once I tune and dyno my new setup though, I'll be sure to post copies of it so people can see.
What I don't understand though is dovla's AFR curves in the first log vs the second - they are totally dissimilar from what I can see. Was that the same run? Both WOT?
09-09-2006, 05:30 PM
#17
If I had a wide open freeway I could do some 4th gear runs from 1k rpm to redline... but that's just unsafe for the most part so I stuck to 2nd and 3rd gear runs.
Dovla's second set of graphs look like a 4th gear run or possibly 5th, but you can see it doesn't go to redline.
Mine were all WOT
PS dovla looks like he needs tuning WAY more than me
Dovla's second set of graphs look like a 4th gear run or possibly 5th, but you can see it doesn't go to redline.
Mine were all WOT
PS dovla looks like he needs tuning WAY more than me
09-09-2006, 08:38 PM
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Bottom two charts (in my post above) were made some 4K miles ago from Cipher log in 5th gear on the road (it goes up to 5K rpm because I run out of room) and top chart is from Cipher log made on recent dyno in 4th gear and link below zoom-in that log AFR. MREV2 and 2 degree Cipher advanced timing were added since bottom two charts. All three charts were at WOT.
http://home.comcast.net/~dovla/G35/2...7/chart1af.jpg
I don’t want to highjack Wired 24/7’s thread, sorry, but what I wanted to point out was cams angle separation and B2 being leaner. There have been some discussions on g35driver site about these two problems but without conclusion. Additionally, in my case, ECU adapted to more air from MREV2 and/or to advanced timing – my AFR has never been better, but still not sufficiently good.
Also not sure that these ignition timing curves are result of knock at WOT, they might be related to cams and/or ECU adjusting pulse OR this freaking ECU have such timing curve burned in map.
I might be selling my Cipher soon, if someone is interested – PM me offer.
http://home.comcast.net/~dovla/G35/2...7/chart1af.jpg
I don’t want to highjack Wired 24/7’s thread, sorry, but what I wanted to point out was cams angle separation and B2 being leaner. There have been some discussions on g35driver site about these two problems but without conclusion. Additionally, in my case, ECU adapted to more air from MREV2 and/or to advanced timing – my AFR has never been better, but still not sufficiently good.
Also not sure that these ignition timing curves are result of knock at WOT, they might be related to cams and/or ECU adjusting pulse OR this freaking ECU have such timing curve burned in map.
I might be selling my Cipher soon, if someone is interested – PM me offer.
Last edited by dovla; 09-28-2006 at 06:53 PM. Reason: added link to discussion on g35driver site
09-10-2006, 10:21 AM
#20
Originally Posted by dovla
Bottom two charts (in my post above) were made some 4K miles ago from Cipher log in 5th gear on the road (it goes up to 5K rpm because I run out of room) and top chart is from Cipher log made on recent dyno in 4th gear and link below zoom-in that log AFR. MREV2 and 2 degree Cipher advanced timing were added since bottom two charts. All three charts were at WOT.
http://home.comcast.net/~dovla/G35/2...7/chart1af.jpg
I don’t want to highjack Wired 24/7’s thread, sorry, but what I wanted to point out was cams angle separation and B2 being leaner. There have been some discussions on g35driver site about these two problems but without conclusion. Additionally, in my case, ECU adapted to more air from MREV2 and/or to advanced timing – my AFR has never been better, but still not sufficiently good.
Also not sure that these ignition timing curves are result of knock at WOT, they might be related to cams and/or ECU adjusting pulse OR this freaking ECU have such timing curve burned in map.
I might be selling my Cipher soon, if someone is interested – PM me offer.
http://home.comcast.net/~dovla/G35/2...7/chart1af.jpg
I don’t want to highjack Wired 24/7’s thread, sorry, but what I wanted to point out was cams angle separation and B2 being leaner. There have been some discussions on g35driver site about these two problems but without conclusion. Additionally, in my case, ECU adapted to more air from MREV2 and/or to advanced timing – my AFR has never been better, but still not sufficiently good.
Also not sure that these ignition timing curves are result of knock at WOT, they might be related to cams and/or ECU adjusting pulse OR this freaking ECU have such timing curve burned in map.
I might be selling my Cipher soon, if someone is interested – PM me offer.
Interesting, you have roughly the same mods that I will once I install my cats. So I assume the cats will lean me out a little bit more. Maybe I should get tuned the same day I install them...?