hfm

iTrader: (1)

In view of the most recent accident, forum members concerns about future runs and for safety on future canyon runs, I think a little discussion is in order.

I can recall an incident on Ortega Highway about two years ago. Then there was the death of the passenger in the M3. And, now more recently, Zman23 had a close call that could have turned tragic but for a guard rail. Now, I know how well Jon drives having been behind him and in front of him in past runs and I know that his Z is modded to perform better than a stock Z and if he can get into a mishap, anyone of us can as well.

In view of the number of problems associated with Ortega, I'm inclined to skip that location altogether. I start up a fair share of runs and I try to emphasize before we do a run to keep things safe, to drive within the car's limits, to give plenty of space between cars and so fourth.

Having been in my share of accidents when I was younger, I know that with a high performance sports car, our Zs have very high limits of handling however, once that limit is reached, the car is very unforgiving and if the limit is surpassed, you are no longer the driver but just a passenger along for a nasty ride.

On our last run ending at Neptune's Net, Ed had a ticket and a new member, Jeff I believe, damaged his rear wheel and sideskirt on his brand new roadster. These folks were part of the fast group. Now, I like to see the people who want to drive fast take point and take the forward part of the field of Zs but it's these people that are in lead spot or taking the car close to it's limits that need to be extra attentive. Having taking the forward spot in the past, I know that I've hit the limits of the Z and that a mishap could take place in tenths of a second.

In future runs, I would like to see that we keep the faster Zs up front but that these folks take care to keep things safe. If I'm at a run, I'll be midway and I'll be driving spirited but will never approach the cars limits. And, anyone who wishes to have a little more certainty about safety can follow behind me.

Again, I really enjoy these runs but it sucks when there is an incident and worse, I would hate to see someone get injured. So, lets all keep things safe. If anyone has any suggestions or comments, please feel free to post them.

Luv Mntrl

iTrader: (1)

I agree 100%. Ortega should not be part of our agenda. I opted not to go, but for a gut feeling telling me to stay home. I thought about you guys all day, and then I read this! Glad I didn't go. Cheating death will not always work; one day it will come for all of us. But NOT off a cliff on a fun filled day with friends! That is NOT an option!

And as for the speed demons in us, yes, being up front is probably best; but you all need to rememeber the driver and car do have their limits. A micro split second is all it takes, and then there is nothing you can do about it.

I think in lieu of Jon's recent experience, more people who enjoy taking chances or driving faster than others, might think twice now; since it hits closer to home when it's someone you know. (Jen doesn't feel like a loser anymore for being last all the time). Would rather be last than dead!

I think we should all maybe try to follow the speed limit guide lines a little more, and opt for safer canyon runs. Even the last run we were on where Jeff scraped up his right side, a couple of right turns were hampered by the cliff protruding out, and there was not much of a right lane at all. If 2 cars were travelling at the same time in opposite directions, around that corner and not see each other??? Could be a close call. I don't wanna think of what might happen.

Maybe someone can find a cleaner run for us all. (Jen's mightmare continues to play in her mind......)

Play safe kiddies.....

Risk

I agree whole-heartedly with both of you. As some of you may know, Jon and I are bowling teammates on Sunday evenings. Last night (right after the incident) I could tell that Jon was a bit shaken up still. I think I would be pretty weird for about a week afterwards given the situation. My point is, I think everybody agrees that Jon is the last guy that you would want anything bad to happen to, so let this be a lesson to us all and play safe. Its ok to drive fast, but know your limits and dont try to fool yourself into thinking youre last name is Andretti. Im glad to say that as the night went on last night, Jon began to loosen up and actually bowled a pretty good third game!! Thats my boy there

frenzee

iTrader: (1)

If I read the posts correctly, Jon hit loose gravel on the asphalt and I beleive Sharif hit a patch of black ice. If that's the case, both cars were within their perfornance envelope under normal conditions, but you can't predict debrit or ice on the road, so the lead car is always going to be taking more of a risk regardless of which road you take. Just something to think about.

hfm

iTrader: (1)

No. If you look at his post again, you'll see that his rears slid out from under him first. Then he hit gravel. Control was lost before hitting gravel and once he did hit gravel, actually, even before he hit gravel there was nothing he could do with the car snapping him around the otherway after he corrected the skid once. Thank god for the guard rail because judging from the impact damage and the short distance of a couple feet from the rail to over the cliff, I'm 85% certain that without it, we would have lost Jon.

03Z33

iTrader: (49)

The great thing about these runs is that there are other enthusiasts there to help if anything like this ever happens.

Last night I took one of the best roads in the world from the racetrack to the coast (Hwy 58 between 5fwy and 101fwy for those who have been) and was not comfortable pushing the limits knowing that I was all alone, without cell phone reception.

I too have driven with Jon on runs, and was very impressed by his abilities, espeacialy considering that his car is automatic. The only thing I could recommend after reading the description of the loss of control, is possibly organizing a group drift day where we can all better learn to recover from over steer situations and enjoy them

Grey Matter

hfm & Luv Mntrl-I agree with you. These runs can be very dangerous and we are lucky that it has only been cars that have been hurt.
The idea of two groups is very good, those who want to drive fast, and those who just want to cruise. I think for future drives we just need to be organized (maps of the run, stop points, cell phone numbers, radios for the front and back drivers, and maybe always have a person bring up the rear who knows the route and makes sure nobody gets lost).
One other thing to maybe consider is the spacing of cars when we drive. I have noticed on a few occasions people driving very close. I think it is very important to keep distance just incase of a problem, we would not want to have cars rear end each other.

zman23

iTrader: (31)

I do agree that leading the pack you are taking a risk on whats up ahead of you. I do know my limits and feel very comfortable in my car when I take it out on the twisties but when a mechanical part breaks like what my insurance co is finding out then theres not much for me to do except to do my best to control the vehicle with the problem at hand. They are not 100% sure if it was caused by a broken part but thats what they are leaning towards.
Just a little insight about myself, I'm from south of Chicago and have experienced 26 years of horrible driving on ice, snow, hail, rain and even a few cows. Not to say this incident could have solved my miss hap on those kind of conditions but how a car reacts when it starts to fishtail and your reaction to that helps tremendously which I do believe I think I could have possibly corrected my fishtail to the right if I had more pavement to work with. Believe me I have gone through this wreck in my mind 100's of times now and try to figure out what i couldve done to correct my car. Only problem was once I hit that grave, I knew it wasn't going to be easy to control.
I agree with Jen an many others, Ortega is a death trap esp with all the croch rockets flying through there. I'm done with Oretga but am not backing down on running other canyons. If you drive to the level that u know your driving safe, then you'll be just fine. Pushing the car is for track and drifting purposes or just doing donuts in an empty parking lot whatever the case theres a time for level headedness and an time to let it all out to fit your driving experience.
My 2$ worth.

Mr Twisted

The safety level which some consider safe ( based in experence) may be completely reckless for another driver. I've driven with most of you guys. Great drivers the whole bunch, but we have a lot of newer drivers just getting there cars coming to the events. Noone likes to be left behind especially on their first and would opp to push it a little. Pushing it and inexperence = DISASTER.

So far no one has been hurt on any of our runs. And we need to keep it that way. Having said that I thing we need to set up some strict guidelines of conduct to protect all of the participants.

I'm in favor of the two teared run concept.

Have someone lay out a route so a cruise group launchs 30-45 mins earlier and the spirited (experence equipted group) comes up behind. Both groupsl meeting at a lunch location together for the BS ing. Then the Spirited group leaves with the cruise group doing its thing.

I think what it most important is that each driver drives in his or her comfort zone and not be encouraged or embarrised to join in either group.

Intervel is important . In the GQ tunnel of torror all 6 cars should of been history, 2 guys got very lucky.

Time to mix some sense back into our fun before we have to bury one or more of us.

shmately

The road you take can play a factor too. I usually only really drive(I mean really DRIVE) one section of mulholland hwy, back and fourth. It is a relatively slow speed section, over 30 2nd gear turns in under a mile climing over 1000 feet, and one 3rd gear straight to a bend. Speeds can maybe go over 60 mph, if you choose to punch it on the one real straightaway. I take it slow at first, there are rocks in the road often from peaple simply pulling back onto the road. I've had to slam on my brakes and get out and pick up the boulders I would've just hit. I had a freind have a street biker pass him and end up sitting in the middle of the road a few corners ahead, he stopped few feet from running him over.

My point is, 2nd and 3rd gear **** can happen, but if your brakes and your reactions are good you may get out of it. You get to the top of 3rd and beyond, your really risking your life. Canyon driving is very dangerous, but you can't let that distract you. Keep a cool head and don't go over your limit. We all know our limits.

Mr B

iTrader: (2)

Canyon driving is always a risky thing to do. Lately, I've been doing a lot of late night runs up Glendora Mountain Road and it's seriously not an easy run. I always see at least one crash each time I go there and it's not for the faint of heart. Anyway, with that being said, I don't think a lot of people should race around in a canyon unless they are fully aware that one day, you will crash if you're driving aggressive. If you choose to drive aggressive on windy roads, it's a serious risk.
So when's the next run so I can tag along? j/k

Ed 718

iTrader: (32)

Well for me the runs are extremely fun BUt they can become dangerous. I did a Angeles Crest run with Sharif, Jen, Boosted, Jon, Scott Webb and other and we came across a newly wrecked bike that the rider had just got rushed to the hospital. We need to take caution and like Dan states leave enough room in front and behind so we can stop safely if needed. My citation was a complete suprise to me as I never thought a CHP would be waiting at the top of the hill. He was just waiting for the unlucky chap to speed on the straight road and tagged me. I think the large amount of law enforcement may have been due to the end of the month time period since I witnessed many other driver get stopped on PCH all the way down to the 10 Fry from Neptunes...

ihatethatbobbarker

brian, wahts glendora like in the daytime, ive only run it at night.

Mr B

iTrader: (2)

I don't run it during the daytime. I only run it at night cuz I can see headlights from oncoming traffic.

03Z33

iTrader: (49)

so you think hahaha us real men touge w/out lights

nothing like a full moon run following the stars

lopchild

Hi there....

Can you keep me advised of any furture canyon drives, etc.... ? I have been wanting to go on some runs for many months, but car was apart for mods all summer. I am ready to go, and havent driven in quite a while.... need a group to go with!!!

Me & girlfriend will be in car....

Do you always end up somewhere(neptune's net, etc...) to eat, have a beer, etc?

Mr B

iTrader: (2)

If that's the case, you "real men" are a danger for the rest of the people on the mountain. Not cool.

03Z33

iTrader: (49)

I was trying to be funny Mr. B... sorry my sarcasm is not always obvious.

importriders

Take it to the track. Its not worth it on the street if you ask me. I learned this the hard way.

Mr B

iTrader: (2)

Ah, gotcha.

Lyndon - Come up to LA. I wish to look at your white Toy.