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03-29-2005, 04:53 AM
#61
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Originally Posted by SB Track
Completely agreed. I'm turning 18 this Sunday. I mostly try to keep it safe knowing what I'm NOT capable of.
The key is experience.
Mantis starts whining about "discriminating" against 18 year olds. Well, obviously, everyone older than 18, was 18 once, so that term is just silly.
Maturity plays a big role, and will make you a safe driver.
Experience makes you a good driver.
There is a very big difference.
I road race Porsches, and have now for about 5 years. I'm a total noob out there next to the guys who have been doing it for 10 or 20 years. I may be safer than some, and I may even be faster than a small percentage, but it will just take more time before I become as good as almost all of them.
The same applies here.
Anyone who cannot recognize this is "ignorant" (to use Mantis' word).
03-29-2005, 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott n Houston
You are 100x more intelligent than Mantis it appears. You're already light years ahead of him in maturity.
The key is experience.
Mantis starts whining about "discriminating" against 18 year olds. Well, obviously, everyone older than 18, was 18 once, so that term is just silly.
Maturity plays a big role, and will make you a safe driver.
Experience makes you a good driver.
There is a very big difference.
I road race Porsches, and have now for about 5 years. I'm a total noob out there next to the guys who have been doing it for 10 or 20 years. I may be safer than some, and I may even be faster than a small percentage, but it will just take more time before I become as good as almost all of them.
The same applies here.
Anyone who cannot recognize this is "ignorant" (to use Mantis' word).
The key is experience.
Mantis starts whining about "discriminating" against 18 year olds. Well, obviously, everyone older than 18, was 18 once, so that term is just silly.
Maturity plays a big role, and will make you a safe driver.
Experience makes you a good driver.
There is a very big difference.
I road race Porsches, and have now for about 5 years. I'm a total noob out there next to the guys who have been doing it for 10 or 20 years. I may be safer than some, and I may even be faster than a small percentage, but it will just take more time before I become as good as almost all of them.
The same applies here.
Anyone who cannot recognize this is "ignorant" (to use Mantis' word).
03-29-2005, 05:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Mantis3024
You road race Porsches. Good for you. Please explain to me how road racing can apply to everyday driving.
That question alone shows the depth of your cluelessness.
Get on the track, and you'll figure it out very quickly how it applies.
03-29-2005, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott n Houston
LOL
That question alone shows the depth of your cluelessness.
Get on the track, and you'll figure it out very quickly how it applies.
That question alone shows the depth of your cluelessness.
Get on the track, and you'll figure it out very quickly how it applies.
03-29-2005, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by m|2. B|2 ya|\|
Just the price you gotta pay for doing extreme things. SOoner or later something that sucks is gonna happen to ya.
That's a shitty thing to say...... have a little heart. That is not the price to pay for doing what he did... Do you drive your Z at the speed limit? if so get a cadillac, hate fools like you....
03-29-2005, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Mantis3024
I have a 944 thats a track car. If I drive on the streets the way I do on the track, that would make be a VERY bad driver.
03-29-2005, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Mantis3024
ok....stop dodging the question. How can racing on the track apply to daily driving?
I was applying the same logic of my skills in racing to more experienced drivers the same as an 18 year old's driving skills would compare to someone older.
But, as for what track driving can teach you? If you've spent much time on the track, it should be obvious. (Makes me wonder if you really have been on a track much, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt)
First and foremost, it teaches you a respect for speed and how easily you can lose control. Most people who drive much on the track would be the last to try something stupid on the street, in particular when there are obstacles, cliffs, or worse, other people around. Anyone with much seat-time knows that it's only a fraction of a second between control and complete lack of control that may send you to your death.... literally. The track at least gives a safe place to explore because generally, tracks are safer.
Driving on the track will teach you where the limits of your car are. Driving at 10/10th's is a dumb thing to do. If you do that at the track, you'll lose it eventually, and if you do it on the street, you're a moron. Enough seat time will teach you where a particular type of car's limits are, and beyond that, what different tires feel like at the limit, and identifying when you're too close to losing it. It will increase the little sensor we all have in our butts that tells us what the car is doing, etc.
VISION: 99% of the people on the street don't see much past the car in front of them. A good racer or road course driver knows that it's all about vision and seeing way beyond the tail lights of the car in front of him. I've done drills where I put a piece of tape across the center of my windshield horizontally, then have another driver ride shotgun and yell at me every time he sees me looking below it. The idea is to keep my vision out, and down the track. This applies to most street driving and has saved me from a lot of incidents on the street.
This driving has also made me a better steward of my car in taking care of it, from the brakes to the tires to even the freakin' wind shield staying clean.
How many junkers do you see out there that are accidents waiting to happen. If they knew the danger of having such poor equipment, they'd think twice before getting on the freeway.
There are others similar, but these are the first that jumped out of my head.
03-29-2005, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by berferd
If you had a feeling that "he was going to try and do something beyond his capabilities", then you are partly to blame for what happened.
You should not have been driving beyond what the limits of HIS car was capable of. He was trying to keep up with you.
You should not have been driving beyond what the limits of HIS car was capable of. He was trying to keep up with you.
Dude Sti is supposed to handle better than mine, and I wasnt even traveling near the speed that I usually go through some of those turns, at least 10 under on all the turns from norm
03-29-2005, 09:57 AM
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he has cooled off a little bit, and should be getting a new new sti in a few weeks, and he is starting to take a very small amount of responsibility
03-29-2005, 10:06 AM
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yes, very well said scott....... those are just some of the points learned on the track... and i have done that tape drill too. i agree, the biggest thing learned is not necessarily the control, the predictability of your car when it starts to get out of control and the line of where that control vs uncontrolled is, but the ability to anticipate what is coming up next. as in watching cars farther up the road, and constantly keeping an eye out for what they are doing and the conditions. not only does this make you a safer driver, but how many times have you been unable to swerve around a pot hole because you only had the time between when the car in front of you tried to get around to your car.... if you are paying attention, and see a car 4 or 5 up swing outof the way, you have time to react. not to mention it saves on gas and brakes... you can slow down earlier, not speed up too fast, etc etc..... it took me years of racing on the tracks to just begin to grasp all of this. and while there may be a few people you can beat, there is always so much more to learn. it is an ongoing process for us folks that really only race 10-15 times a year, and are not doing it every week for a job.
the STi kid is a moron. 1. for trying to blame you and 2 for pushing his car like that. i think it should be mandatory that whenever someone gets their liscense, or a new car, they must spend a couple of weeks at a track or autocross events learning the car, and its handling dynamics. too many people learn the hard way. especially with sports cars. too many MR2's were lost because people don't understand the concept of oversteer, and specifically snap oversteer where the back end can come around very quickly, and that you shouldn't brake when this starts to happen, but accelerate...
the STi kid is a moron. 1. for trying to blame you and 2 for pushing his car like that. i think it should be mandatory that whenever someone gets their liscense, or a new car, they must spend a couple of weeks at a track or autocross events learning the car, and its handling dynamics. too many people learn the hard way. especially with sports cars. too many MR2's were lost because people don't understand the concept of oversteer, and specifically snap oversteer where the back end can come around very quickly, and that you shouldn't brake when this starts to happen, but accelerate...
03-29-2005, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott n Houston
Well, there are two parts based on our conversation above.
I was applying the same logic of my skills in racing to more experienced drivers the same as an 18 year old's driving skills would compare to someone older.
But, as for what track driving can teach you? If you've spent much time on the track, it should be obvious. (Makes me wonder if you really have been on a track much, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt)
First and foremost, it teaches you a respect for speed and how easily you can lose control. Most people who drive much on the track would be the last to try something stupid on the street, in particular when there are obstacles, cliffs, or worse, other people around. Anyone with much seat-time knows that it's only a fraction of a second between control and complete lack of control that may send you to your death.... literally. The track at least gives a safe place to explore because generally, tracks are safer.
Driving on the track will teach you where the limits of your car are. Driving at 10/10th's is a dumb thing to do. If you do that at the track, you'll lose it eventually, and if you do it on the street, you're a moron. Enough seat time will teach you where a particular type of car's limits are, and beyond that, what different tires feel like at the limit, and identifying when you're too close to losing it. It will increase the little sensor we all have in our butts that tells us what the car is doing, etc.
VISION: 99% of the people on the street don't see much past the car in front of them. A good racer or road course driver knows that it's all about vision and seeing way beyond the tail lights of the car in front of him. I've done drills where I put a piece of tape across the center of my windshield horizontally, then have another driver ride shotgun and yell at me every time he sees me looking below it. The idea is to keep my vision out, and down the track. This applies to most street driving and has saved me from a lot of incidents on the street.
This driving has also made me a better steward of my car in taking care of it, from the brakes to the tires to even the freakin' wind shield staying clean.
How many junkers do you see out there that are accidents waiting to happen. If they knew the danger of having such poor equipment, they'd think twice before getting on the freeway.
There are others similar, but these are the first that jumped out of my head.
I was applying the same logic of my skills in racing to more experienced drivers the same as an 18 year old's driving skills would compare to someone older.
But, as for what track driving can teach you? If you've spent much time on the track, it should be obvious. (Makes me wonder if you really have been on a track much, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt)
First and foremost, it teaches you a respect for speed and how easily you can lose control. Most people who drive much on the track would be the last to try something stupid on the street, in particular when there are obstacles, cliffs, or worse, other people around. Anyone with much seat-time knows that it's only a fraction of a second between control and complete lack of control that may send you to your death.... literally. The track at least gives a safe place to explore because generally, tracks are safer.
Driving on the track will teach you where the limits of your car are. Driving at 10/10th's is a dumb thing to do. If you do that at the track, you'll lose it eventually, and if you do it on the street, you're a moron. Enough seat time will teach you where a particular type of car's limits are, and beyond that, what different tires feel like at the limit, and identifying when you're too close to losing it. It will increase the little sensor we all have in our butts that tells us what the car is doing, etc.
VISION: 99% of the people on the street don't see much past the car in front of them. A good racer or road course driver knows that it's all about vision and seeing way beyond the tail lights of the car in front of him. I've done drills where I put a piece of tape across the center of my windshield horizontally, then have another driver ride shotgun and yell at me every time he sees me looking below it. The idea is to keep my vision out, and down the track. This applies to most street driving and has saved me from a lot of incidents on the street.
This driving has also made me a better steward of my car in taking care of it, from the brakes to the tires to even the freakin' wind shield staying clean.
How many junkers do you see out there that are accidents waiting to happen. If they knew the danger of having such poor equipment, they'd think twice before getting on the freeway.
There are others similar, but these are the first that jumped out of my head.
"No 18 year old is a good driver... period.". They are inexperienced, they are not bad drivers. Being a bad driver has to do more with attitude and mentality than it does with age.
03-29-2005, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Mantis3024
Driving and racing are two totally different things. Can racing teach you a lot of about driving? Sure. I have about of year of racing behind me and I've learned A LOT about driving and the road.
"No 18 year old is a good driver... period.". They are inexperienced, they are not bad drivers. Being a bad driver has to do more with attitude and mentality than it does with age.
"No 18 year old is a good driver... period.". They are inexperienced, they are not bad drivers. Being a bad driver has to do more with attitude and mentality than it does with age.
03-29-2005, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott n Houston
No 18 year old is a good driver... period.
It's about seat-time, and 2 years is nothing.
Every 18 year old thinks he's a good driver though. That's part of being young and stupid, which your friend obviously is.
No offense meant, but it's all true.
It's about seat-time, and 2 years is nothing.
Every 18 year old thinks he's a good driver though. That's part of being young and stupid, which your friend obviously is.
No offense meant, but it's all true.
03-29-2005, 12:27 PM
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keywords "i think i am a good driver". WRONG ATTITUDE. with that attitude you will end up in a ditch or dead. i know. i used to have think i was too...... then i got on the track for the first time when i was 19. realized then that i was a horrible driver, and how much room for improvement i really had. it is a life long learning process
03-29-2005, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by mr2fasterthanyo
keywords "i think i am a good driver". WRONG ATTITUDE. with that attitude you will end up in a ditch or dead. i know. i used to have think i was too...... then i got on the track for the first time when i was 19. realized then that i was a horrible driver, and how much room for improvement i really had. it is a life long learning process
I saw a AAA stat that 98% of all drivers polled considered themselves "Better than average or a good driver" lol
03-30-2005, 01:38 AM
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2 years ago I lost my Z when my brother drove it too fast around a corner. It was totalled but luckily it had a roll cage that saved him.
A month later, he hit another car in a car that I bought for him.
Today he drives a Honda sports car but I still don't think he will ever learn. He still claim he's a good driver.
Yeah, he's 20 now. Young drivers are young drivers. Give them the key to my car?
No F^%&*^ WAY.
A month later, he hit another car in a car that I bought for him.
Today he drives a Honda sports car but I still don't think he will ever learn. He still claim he's a good driver.
Yeah, he's 20 now. Young drivers are young drivers. Give them the key to my car?
No F^%&*^ WAY.