Vamos_Rafael

iTrader: (18)

Original thread https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....c+disable+part


OK...

Had a couple incidents were it could be a bit dangerous if you arent paying attention to the surface of the road.

1. Snow patching/ice
I had an incident where about 4 inches of snow/ice patch sent my car drifting sideways into on coming traffic towards a nissan altima while I was going at about 25mph!?... but drifting skills saved the day (thank GOD, my Lord to download me tsuchiya drifting skills into my brain matrix style)

2. Wheel hop
Incident today, i was going WOT to give my nismo exhaust set up a run for stress relief - midterms tomorrow...
an imperfection in the road hopped my front right wheel and almost sent my car flying...(dangerous)

VDC could of prevented both incidents?

Maybe... sensors couple detect wheel slip but can they prevent the tires from giving out?

NO.... so the incident with the ice/snow would of been worse if VDC was in place. Because VDC doesnt give room for counter-steer (supposed to be your first reaction when blatant oversteer is sensed), and it would brake and stop the vehicle where the driver has no control over...

But with Wheel hop ... VDC would of kicked in... but in spirited drives, who keeps VDC ON anyways?

IMO if one has no sense to counter-steer when over steer is sensed by the body(you feel it coming) then one should drive with VDC ON all the time...

but if you know what your doing, VDC oFF all the way...

Does this apply to Traction control guys?

Hmm...
If traction control is what they claim to be, prevent wheel slip but doesnt have yaw sensors... then if you are suddenly in a drift on snow/ice, it is still hopeless... tires are the main concerns here i think...

Well to me... electronic assistances are all bs lol...
How porsche GT3 uses mechanical grip to keep the car on the track is so much different from Ferrari using eletronic gadgets inspired from F1...

Soccerprep205

yeah i agree. VDC disable is only for skilled drivers. Alot of people THINK thier good drivers, but unless you have done a TON of drifting and courses your driving skills are not what they should be.

I was headed over the mountains months and months back. VDC disabled. it was warmer out but when i hit a certain point in the climb it wasn't too warm anymore.. haha, anyway my rear end broke loose and i began to slide towards the oncoming lane and then past that.. there was a ditch then a dropoff a little further (past a guardrail) anybody want to guess how scary it is to turn INTO the drift, when turning into it means that your steering yourself off the mountain. haha, anyway DRIVE SAFE!!!(BTW i dont think im a pro driver, but id say i qualify for enough skills to disable safely.

Vamos_Rafael

iTrader: (18)

no1 ever mention that VDC/TCS can actually cause accidents because the driver isnt able to input corrective steering/braking/throttle because the computers has control of the car...
imo thats just as bad as not knowing how to drive...

Soccerprep205

+1 on that, but a good numer of people dont know how to correct it properly. and they would just screw themselves even worse haha

Kolia

iTrader: (2)

SUbscribing... I'll be back with comments soon...

MulhollandDrive

Another amazing statement. Please find me an article that says that the VDC on Nissan 350z does not allow corrective steering input. From what i see on the internet, VDCs will modulate brake and throttle pressure in an attempt to avoid directional loss of control, but there is no loss of steering input.

This type of argument has been used by people to argue not to wear seat belts since it is possible to get trapped upside down in a car and die as a result of wearing a seat belt. The fallacy of this type of logic is that you are _on average_ much more likely to die in a accident if you are not wearing your seatbelt than if you are wearing your seatbelt.

It is possible that VDC could contribute to a mortality, but _on average_ it has significantly reduced mortality in countries with widespread use of VDC so that other variables being _equal_, you are more likely _on average_ to die in a car without VDC than in an "identical car" with VDC.

When you come in to the ER with your brain squishing out of your head, I really don't care why you had your VDC off.

Kolia

iTrader: (2)

First off, the VDC cannot break the laws of physics anymore than us.

VDC saves lives. Proven by statistics of cars have it as an option on same model/different trim.
The VDC DOES give room to counter steering. It monitors your steering input and compares that with where the car is actually going. If you had had the VDC turned on, the car would have applied brakes to one of the front wheels, without locking it (<cuz ABS) and would have worked with you to turn the car and straighten it’s course.

Anybody here is able to brake ONE wheel only?

Don’t think soo.

Ah, driving a Z in the snow with re040 and expect it to respond to driver input is pretty silly...

Vamos_Rafael

iTrader: (18)

master K breaking my nuts over and over again
im preaching my method of driving ( purist )
and the other guy is preaching eletronics > mastery of skills

Kolia

iTrader: (2)

I'm preaching common sense...

Vamos_Rafael

iTrader: (18)

yeah i know... which i dont nothing about hahahah
what i know is i can recite what Jeremy Clarkson said about the GT3 and the Challenge Stradale. (purist driving machines with no compromise and for people who has no friends like the Stig )
hahahah

Kolia

iTrader: (2)

A 360SC is way more volatile than a GT3.

For one, it has 60hp/ton more power (333hp/ton vs 272/ton), it’s 100 kg lighter and the central engine gives it less rotational inertia.

From talking with a Maseratti/Ferrari test driver, you don’t put the 360SC on “Track Mode” on a whim...

Vamos_Rafael

iTrader: (18)

i remember it was Porsche GT3 RS that was featured along with the Challenge Stradale on top gear...
Clarkson first b!tched about the GT3 RS's stiff suspension giving him chronic backache

Kolia

iTrader: (2)

GT3RS --> 286hp/ton, 50kg less than the GT3.

I "raced" one at Monza the first time I drove a 350Z. "raced" because I couldn't do much other than watch it leave me on the straight to the Parabolica!

Very nice cars

archman350z

Well said. VDC can assist a driver in maintaining control of the vehicle, but it does have limitations. Most people seem to have big issues with reliquishing control of their car to a computer, but the fact is that that the computer can perform millions of calculations every second and they almost never make a mistake. I would wager to bet that if cars drove themselves, the number of traffic deaths in the US per year could be counted on one hand.

There seems to be the mentality of "man versus machine" when it comes to driving. But the cold reality is that the BEST drivers in the world rely on computer assistance to get them around the racetrack (F1 sometimes allow drivers to use traction control programming in their cars).

On the flip side, people need to know how to use technolgy. It's a complete misconception that VDC disconnects you from the car and does its own thing. What it DOES DO is assist you in getting the car pointed to where you want to go. If you go into a skid, simply turn the wheel to where you want to go and VDC will fire off the brakes to get the car pointed there. Now, if you're wildly turning the wheel in both directions, VDC will then ignore you and plot a default that it thinks best. In this case, you may crash, but you'll definitely have crashed without VDC anyway.

VDC cannot correct for:
- a skid that is too far gone: physics are physics and the best drivers can't do this either
- driving too fast for conditions: the car needs time to react, no matter who's controlling it
- using improper tires in snow/rain: if there's no traction, then there isn't much anything can do about a skid. RE040s are marginal in heavy rain...I cringe when people tell me they drive in snow with them.

Personally, I drive with VDC on about 99% of the time. I'll take it off if I'm on the race track, and even then I sometimes leave it on if I'm at a new track or want to try "dive bombing" a corner. VDC has saved my bacon at the track once already when I put two tires in the dirt; it kept the car moving straight and I was able to get back on line without much drama.

Vamos_Rafael

iTrader: (18)

yeah i have to say the time when i slid on ice... that was random luck i pulled it lol
cuz the car went feather light and slidding toward car/guard rail (NO GOOD)
yeah and guess what i braked too... (TERRIBLE) but its a panic mechanism and i did slow down but it made me more sideways
counter-steer saved my behind though...

A lady was waiting at a stop sign and was completely in awe because she thought "CRASH" and i luckily got away unscathed...

but still if a guy had him been driving FWD/AWD all life would of definately crashed with or without VDC cuz the notion of the slide, the counter-steer is just isnt there...

"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity.”
-Roman Philosopher 1st century AD

and i know... i am a NOT proD1 drifter or anything even close to it, but from some practices at slower speeds in self contained parking lots, i try to hone my counter-steering skills and get a grip on how things work...

Kolia

iTrader: (2)

Will you stop saying silly things like that!

A guy in a AWD or a FWD would not have lost control the same way you did to start with. Probably would not have lost it at all.

FWD can "pull you out" of a bad situation simply because you can direct the direction of the force vector.

AWD, even more so...

You got lucky, be happy for it.

Note: You have to turn into a slide whatever car your driving (FWD,AWD or RWD)...

njsho

iTrader: (2)

street = VDC on
track = VDC off unless you have never been on a track before

DesiZ_06

well here its kinda dry..u know hot spring..but i turn off my tdc..is that cool?

zedated

First, let me say that I'm not taking any sides here. I want to understand what VDC is actually doing and what I, the driver, am supposed to do. I say this because I've been driving mostly RWD cars for 25+ years and I know, instinctively, to counter-steer into a slide. But, you are saying to steer in the direction you want to go and VDC will get you there (within reason). This is completely different than counter-steering and not how I learned to drive.

If VDC requires a new mindset, that's fine, but I have not seen any information that says you must retrain yourself to drive with VDC. If you recall, when ABS came along, instructions clearly stated that you must NOT pump the brakes (as we were taught to do), but instead, mash the brake pedal firmly (exactly what we were taught not to do). Luckily, it's more natural to mash the brake pedal in a panic, so that was not a hard transition for most people.

From my personal experience with the 350Z for the last year, my experience with the '90 300ZX for six years, and experience with numerous other RWD, 4WD and FWD cars, I am not really fond of the VDC at this point. I find that, based on my expectations, I have trouble predicting what the car is going to do. Perhaps I need to relearn skid management, but I'm more inclined to turn VDC off and do it myself.

Kolia

iTrader: (2)

I understand what you mean. I sometime get into a situation where I react at the same time the VDC kicks in, doubling the correcting input for a fraction of a second.

The VDC is more instinctive than you might think. But it does have its limits. Keep in mind it knows how many G’s you are taking in 2 axis plus rate of rotation. So it knows where the car is going and how.

In an oversteer situation, you will need less counter steer than what we are used to. Say we’re turning left and the rear end goes wide a bit. We turn the wheel to the right to catch the slide. This will raise flags to the VDC that something is wrong because you’re steering right while the car is turning left. It will react to the steering input by applying some brake force to the front right wheel, effectively turning the car in that direction. It will also try to slow you down.

So we have to learn to use less steering inputs and expect the VDC to work for us.

It does allow for some rear wheel steering, as long as the steering wheel points the same way the car is turning.