What are going to be the Z's main competitors?
07-14-2002, 11:46 AM
#21
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"C&D has the 330Ci doing 5.8 and 14.4 sec. On paper we have the Z doing 5.4 and 14.1 sec. Not a lot different there (0.3 sec in the 1/4 mile). But this might be a quick 330 and a slow Z.
Also if you didn't pre-order and dealers want MSRP + $2K or whatever, the 330 Ci is not that much more expencive. I do not think I am putting the Z down by compairing it to one of the best cars on the market (and by saying that one of the best cars of all time). Also I never said the 330 Ci was better than the Z or faster, or handeled better. But it is a sub six second car in the $36-41K range that puts it in some fast company. Also it is not a bad handeling car, and there are some areas where the BMW will be better than the Z such as interior quality I think
As for baby M3 I'm just thinking the 330 Ci is $20 grand less than the M3 and shares a lot of things in common."
Rai, i agree with you 100%. the BMW is definatley one of the best cars, with the best interior imo. All i was saying is that the 330 ci wont stand a chance when it comes to performance, and performance only. as far as luxury, interior, etc...the Z isnt even close. I love my BMW, and it wont be easy to give it up. You said that car and driver got the 330 ci to go 0-60 in 5.8 secs and 1/4 mile in 14.4, might have that been a fast bmw and a slow z. now imagine if this is a fast z, being tested by real drivers, unlike C&D..
again, i do agree with you as far as the quality of the car, i think it is one of the best cars ever. but when it comes to performance, its all about the z. now when you start talking the M class bmw, thats a whole different story that the z wants to stay away from.. take care buddy.
Also if you didn't pre-order and dealers want MSRP + $2K or whatever, the 330 Ci is not that much more expencive. I do not think I am putting the Z down by compairing it to one of the best cars on the market (and by saying that one of the best cars of all time). Also I never said the 330 Ci was better than the Z or faster, or handeled better. But it is a sub six second car in the $36-41K range that puts it in some fast company. Also it is not a bad handeling car, and there are some areas where the BMW will be better than the Z such as interior quality I think
As for baby M3 I'm just thinking the 330 Ci is $20 grand less than the M3 and shares a lot of things in common."
Rai, i agree with you 100%. the BMW is definatley one of the best cars, with the best interior imo. All i was saying is that the 330 ci wont stand a chance when it comes to performance, and performance only. as far as luxury, interior, etc...the Z isnt even close. I love my BMW, and it wont be easy to give it up. You said that car and driver got the 330 ci to go 0-60 in 5.8 secs and 1/4 mile in 14.4, might have that been a fast bmw and a slow z. now imagine if this is a fast z, being tested by real drivers, unlike C&D..
again, i do agree with you as far as the quality of the car, i think it is one of the best cars ever. but when it comes to performance, its all about the z. now when you start talking the M class bmw, thats a whole different story that the z wants to stay away from..
take care buddy.
07-14-2002, 12:12 PM
#22
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Z competition ---- stock.... Porcshe Boxter S, BMW M Coupe, and the Honda S2000 -- all higher priced.
However... what is interesting is that the Z envelope is close on the heels of the 911... soooo
With a few low cost mods--- the Z should be equal to or most likely superior to a Porsche 911 base...
and with some yet-to-be-introduced options from Nismo -- the Z has the the potential to be a very high performance sports car -- only limited by the amount of $ you want to put into it. An optioned Z will, in my opinion, still be less expensive alternative than buying something like a stock 911 or Corvette (even the Z06.. with some real power mods)....
However... what is interesting is that the Z envelope is close on the heels of the 911... soooo
With a few low cost mods--- the Z should be equal to or most likely superior to a Porsche 911 base...
and with some yet-to-be-introduced options from Nismo -- the Z has the the potential to be a very high performance sports car -- only limited by the amount of $ you want to put into it. An optioned Z will, in my opinion, still be less expensive alternative than buying something like a stock 911 or Corvette (even the Z06.. with some real power mods)....
07-14-2002, 04:38 PM
#23
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There's nothing out there that truely compares with the 350Z. Rearwheel drive performance cars for less than 30K are rare as hens teeth. If you go up a bit to the 40K range, there are many cars out there, which have already been mentioned. But I can't find anything in the same price performance for less than $30k. The Mustang is the closest, and... well no offense to Mustang owners but isn't really in the same category. There are some models that are close on performance, but to me the Mustang isn't a true sports car. (JMHO - some people thing that it is, and they are entitled to their opinion too!)
This is going to change though. The RX-7 will be coming out in 2004. If Mazda positions it correctly, it could provide strong competition. People say the rotary isn't reliable. That's not exactly true. The rotary engine is reliable, it was the last turbo set up that wasn't, because they went with a complicated twin turbo set-up. The new R-7 is likely to be normally aspirated, given that the new renesis engine can put out 280 hp.
This is going to change though. The RX-7 will be coming out in 2004. If Mazda positions it correctly, it could provide strong competition. People say the rotary isn't reliable. That's not exactly true. The rotary engine is reliable, it was the last turbo set up that wasn't, because they went with a complicated twin turbo set-up. The new R-7 is likely to be normally aspirated, given that the new renesis engine can put out 280 hp.
07-14-2002, 05:06 PM
#24
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Originally posted by NSANY
Much like Datsun did in 1970, Nissan is carving a new niche with the 350Z. There's really not a lot of direct competition for it in that space. The Z will make short work of TTs and Z3s. The S2000 is close. The Boxster S is ridiculously priced (and anyone who buys one probably also suffers from microphallus).
I think in the next few years, you'll see a LOT more direct competition in the form of a new RX7 and Supra. Of course, by then, Nissan will have released its forced-induction version of the Z (or perhaps figured out how to stuff the 4.5L V8 from the Q into the engine bay.)
Much like Datsun did in 1970, Nissan is carving a new niche with the 350Z. There's really not a lot of direct competition for it in that space. The Z will make short work of TTs and Z3s. The S2000 is close. The Boxster S is ridiculously priced (and anyone who buys one probably also suffers from microphallus).
I think in the next few years, you'll see a LOT more direct competition in the form of a new RX7 and Supra. Of course, by then, Nissan will have released its forced-induction version of the Z (or perhaps figured out how to stuff the 4.5L V8 from the Q into the engine bay.)
On the low end:
MR2
Celica
RSX Type S
Mini Cooper S
Miata
Honda Civic Type R (near future)
On the high end:
Boxter
M3
M Coupe
911
Audi S4
If you forget about slight differences in price, the Track and Touring model competition is probably only
Currently:
S2000
Audi TT Quattro
C5
Mustang Cobra (390HP version)
Near Future:
RX8
Subaru WRX STi
Lancer Evo VII (probably not due to the very low production)
New Z3
This should still leave room to sell 30,000 units a year.
Last edited by Flyingscot; 07-14-2002 at 05:25 PM.
07-14-2002, 05:19 PM
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330 Ci in C&D
That the 330 Ci can run a 14.4 in 1/4 mile is more proof that the Z is going to be faster. The facts are these:
339 Ci -- 225hp 214 TQ weight 3357 lbs power to weight = 14.9 pounds per hp
350z -- 287hp 274 TQ weight 3225 lbs power to weight = 11.2 pounds per hp
even if we use C&D's bogus weight we still get 11.5 poinds per hp with the Z
How are these two cars so close in the 1/4 mile??
339 Ci -- 225hp 214 TQ weight 3357 lbs power to weight = 14.9 pounds per hp
350z -- 287hp 274 TQ weight 3225 lbs power to weight = 11.2 pounds per hp
even if we use C&D's bogus weight we still get 11.5 poinds per hp with the Z
How are these two cars so close in the 1/4 mile??
07-15-2002, 05:02 AM
#26
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Originally posted by rpgonzalez
i think that it has to compete with like you said, boxster and s2000. Sorry, the Z may look somewhat similar to an audi tt, but there is no competition unless the tt is modded. The audi 280hp comes in 4-wheel drive. Otherwise its a 180hp FWD. The 0-60 for the faster tt us 6.3. Consequently it also weighs in at approx. 3200lbs.
for real competition, we would have to bring in the O.G.'s like the 300zxtt and the supra. Again, we are talking absoltely stock. Go racing one of these cars without knowing what they have could lead to embarrassment.
Mustang and Camaro would be fun to race provided that the stang is not a cobra. but be prpared for these cars to get spanked at the track.
Any other sports car more expensive than the s2000 and boxster, you are talking corvette, porche 911, ferrari, M3 ..big time Z killers.
to sum up worthy sports car competition:
stang (0-60)
camaro (0-60)
s2000
boxster
BMW M-coupe
300zxtt
Supra
i think that it has to compete with like you said, boxster and s2000. Sorry, the Z may look somewhat similar to an audi tt, but there is no competition unless the tt is modded. The audi 280hp comes in 4-wheel drive. Otherwise its a 180hp FWD. The 0-60 for the faster tt us 6.3. Consequently it also weighs in at approx. 3200lbs.
for real competition, we would have to bring in the O.G.'s like the 300zxtt and the supra. Again, we are talking absoltely stock. Go racing one of these cars without knowing what they have could lead to embarrassment.
Mustang and Camaro would be fun to race provided that the stang is not a cobra. but be prpared for these cars to get spanked at the track.
Any other sports car more expensive than the s2000 and boxster, you are talking corvette, porche 911, ferrari, M3 ..big time Z killers.
to sum up worthy sports car competition:
stang (0-60)
camaro (0-60)
s2000
boxster
BMW M-coupe
300zxtt
Supra
TT IS 220 HP,,,,NOT 280.
07-15-2002, 08:52 AM
#28
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The M3 has been having a number of engine problems which BMW has not been owning up to.
I won't worry about the M3s, thier owners will not be pushing the cars too hard .. just in case the engine blows-up on them
M3 engine problem archive :
http://members.roadfly.com/jason/m3engines.htm
I won't worry about the M3s, thier owners will not be pushing the cars too hard .. just in case the engine blows-up on them
M3 engine problem archive :
http://members.roadfly.com/jason/m3engines.htm
07-15-2002, 07:25 PM
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I don't understand how the m3 is competition, its a complety different type of car. I think the biggest threat is the vette because at the high end the Z is $34k and change and a vette is only $4k more. That is a big performance boost for $4k. I think the great majority of Z sold will be in the standard and enthusiast models.
07-15-2002, 08:00 PM
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Even with chevy giving the vettes away, they are still over $40K unless you work for chevy. That's like 6-10 grand more than the Z. I was thinking of getting the Z06 for 10 grand more than the track Z(If I got a great deal). But the only thing I like about the Z06 is the performance. And the performance is like 4.2 sec 0-60 and 12.6 seconds 1n the 1/4. I can live with my Z even if it is sluggish off the line, I would rather take that 10 grand and spend it on stereo, performance mods and track/racing school. It's not all about the numbers.
If you look on paper the Z06 is on par with the 911 tt and the 360 modena, but those cars cost 2-3 times more. There is a reason that porsche can sell Boxster S for more than the Z06 and it's not because of performance, but more the overall feel and look of the car. This is why I am sticking with the Z. Now if the Z was any slower (like 14.7 sec 1/4 mile) I would have a different opinion, but as it is it is still plenty fast and with a few mods I hope to put it in the 13's.
If you look on paper the Z06 is on par with the 911 tt and the 360 modena, but those cars cost 2-3 times more. There is a reason that porsche can sell Boxster S for more than the Z06 and it's not because of performance, but more the overall feel and look of the car. This is why I am sticking with the Z. Now if the Z was any slower (like 14.7 sec 1/4 mile) I would have a different opinion, but as it is it is still plenty fast and with a few mods I hope to put it in the 13's.
07-15-2002, 09:34 PM
#31
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Originally posted by Gravitom
I think the great majority of Z sold will be in the standard and enthusiast models.
I think the great majority of Z sold will be in the standard and enthusiast models.
07-16-2002, 04:28 AM
#33
I really think the Z is in the high 13's. A 101 trap equates to really about a 13.8 or 13.9, rather than a 14.1. Anyway, an intake and exhaust would put you into the very high 13's.
You know, if Audi had made a TT with the 2.7T in the S4, and maybe called it a TT-S or something, that could've been a great seller. Guess that 6 wouldn't've fit in it. 4WD, good looks, 280HP, massive tuning potential, Audi reliability? Hell, I would've bought that instead of the Z.
You know, if Audi had made a TT with the 2.7T in the S4, and maybe called it a TT-S or something, that could've been a great seller. Guess that 6 wouldn't've fit in it. 4WD, good looks, 280HP, massive tuning potential, Audi reliability? Hell, I would've bought that instead of the Z.
07-16-2002, 05:01 AM
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An interesting car on the horizon for the US is the Lotus Elise..
It should run around $38k and depending on what engine choice they use for the US market, it could have a 10lb/hp or less power to weight ratio. If they (lotus) have any way of using the new
mazda Renesis engine as the power plant, the Elise will be a monster. 1600lb/ 250hp!!!! If lotus is stupid and uses the Ecotec from the Cavalier just disregard everything I said
(unless you're a tuner).
Something to look out for if you don't mind sacrificing a little reliability for performance.. :^)
It should run around $38k and depending on what engine choice they use for the US market, it could have a 10lb/hp or less power to weight ratio. If they (lotus) have any way of using the new
mazda Renesis engine as the power plant, the Elise will be a monster. 1600lb/ 250hp!!!! If lotus is stupid and uses the Ecotec from the Cavalier just disregard everything I said
(unless you're a tuner).
Something to look out for if you don't mind sacrificing a little reliability for performance.. :^)
07-16-2002, 05:23 AM
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The only thing about the Elise is that it's even less of an everyday car than the Z is. It really is a car that you drive around on the weekends or to the track. I can't imagine taking it though even an inch of snow to go pick up some milk. Unfortunately, I'll be doing that in my Z.
07-16-2002, 07:02 AM
#36
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Without question, the number 1 competitor of the Z is going to be ..........
G35 COUPE!!!
I mean how many trillions of threads have we seen comparing the two. If the Z did not exist, I would get the G35 Coupe. I think most people here would. I, like most of the people here, are looking for a car in the low $30s, not $50s, $60s, $90s or >$100s. There is no car currently in the low $30s that comes anywhere close to the Z in performance and style except the coupe.
G35 COUPE!!!
I mean how many trillions of threads have we seen comparing the two. If the Z did not exist, I would get the G35 Coupe. I think most people here would. I, like most of the people here, are looking for a car in the low $30s, not $50s, $60s, $90s or >$100s. There is no car currently in the low $30s that comes anywhere close to the Z in performance and style except the coupe.
07-16-2002, 04:45 PM
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You guys shouldn't knock the audi tt till you have owned one or driven it significantly. It may not be the fastest of the lot, but it is an incredible cornering car an for this reason can carry much more speed through corners than other cars in its league. I'm not sure of the skidpad, but I think its over .90. Anyway, I've owned this car for 3 years, and although I'm somewhat happy to get rid of it because its simply not a well made car, I will miss its handling abilities - the car is absolutely on rails.
07-16-2002, 06:30 PM
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Originally posted by Daytona
You know, if Audi had made a TT with the 2.7T in the S4, and maybe called it a TT-S or something, that could've been a great seller. Guess that 6 wouldn't've fit in it. 4WD, good looks, 280HP, massive tuning potential, Audi reliability? Hell, I would've bought that instead of the Z.
You know, if Audi had made a TT with the 2.7T in the S4, and maybe called it a TT-S or something, that could've been a great seller. Guess that 6 wouldn't've fit in it. 4WD, good looks, 280HP, massive tuning potential, Audi reliability? Hell, I would've bought that instead of the Z.
07-16-2002, 07:13 PM
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Originally posted by robbyn
G35 COUPE!!!
I mean how many trillions of threads have we seen comparing the two. If the Z did not exist, I would get the G35 Coupe. I think most people here would. I, like most of the people here, are looking for a car in the low $30s, not $50s, $60s, $90s or >$100s. There is no car currently in the low $30s that comes anywhere close to the Z in performance and style except the coupe.
G35 COUPE!!!
I mean how many trillions of threads have we seen comparing the two. If the Z did not exist, I would get the G35 Coupe. I think most people here would. I, like most of the people here, are looking for a car in the low $30s, not $50s, $60s, $90s or >$100s. There is no car currently in the low $30s that comes anywhere close to the Z in performance and style except the coupe.
I'm not saying the 330 Ci is a true Z competitor, but it is THE main competition for the G35 coupe IMO. BMW will cost more to service and may be a smigen slower, but it is a nice car.
07-17-2002, 01:26 AM
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Originally posted by rai
Even with chevy giving the vettes away, they are still over $40K unless you work for chevy. That's like 6-10 grand more than the Z. I was thinking of getting the Z06 for 10 grand more than the track Z(If I got a great deal). But the only thing I like about the Z06 is the performance. And the performance is like 4.2 sec 0-60 and 12.6 seconds 1n the 1/4. I can live with my Z even if it is sluggish off the line, I would rather take that 10 grand and spend it on stereo, performance mods and track/racing school. It's not all about the numbers.
If you look on paper the Z06 is on par with the 911 tt and the 360 modena, but those cars cost 2-3 times more. There is a reason that porsche can sell Boxster S for more than the Z06 and it's not because of performance, but more the overall feel and look of the car. This is why I am sticking with the Z. Now if the Z was any slower (like 14.7 sec 1/4 mile) I would have a different opinion, but as it is it is still plenty fast and with a few mods I hope to put it in the 13's.
Even with chevy giving the vettes away, they are still over $40K unless you work for chevy. That's like 6-10 grand more than the Z. I was thinking of getting the Z06 for 10 grand more than the track Z(If I got a great deal). But the only thing I like about the Z06 is the performance. And the performance is like 4.2 sec 0-60 and 12.6 seconds 1n the 1/4. I can live with my Z even if it is sluggish off the line, I would rather take that 10 grand and spend it on stereo, performance mods and track/racing school. It's not all about the numbers.
If you look on paper the Z06 is on par with the 911 tt and the 360 modena, but those cars cost 2-3 times more. There is a reason that porsche can sell Boxster S for more than the Z06 and it's not because of performance, but more the overall feel and look of the car. This is why I am sticking with the Z. Now if the Z was any slower (like 14.7 sec 1/4 mile) I would have a different opinion, but as it is it is still plenty fast and with a few mods I hope to put it in the 13's.