Sales people must think consumers are idiots
Originally Posted by 350Z_LEE
If you make me an unrealistic, below invoice offer, or want a ridiculous amount for your trade in, I won't try to stop you. 99% of the people that think you have to leave, or attempt it to get the best deal. That is a misconception. I have had many people do that when I was already 200 over invoice, left, called an hour later after going to another dealership and seeing my price/service was better. Sometimes the vehicle sells and they even settle for something different, or sometimes more expensive. If people would just come in and be courteous, and when it is time to negotiate the price, just state that you would like to pay 200 over invoice, they would get a lot further. A good salesman would get that commitment in writing, take it to the desk, and come back with a deal. Managers love commitments. Lets them know what they have to do to sell a car.
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Joined: Mar 2004
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From: Orlando, FL
Originally Posted by Cloud
well, the honda salesman couldn't get the top to open yesterday when I went for a test drive. lol
They never did figure it out and I was not about to tell them.
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 63
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From: Portland, OR
Originally Posted by zand02max
Typical stealership salesman answer!But I stand true to that. MSRP is a good middle ground. The dealership would love to charge you 2K over that, and they try hard to do so. You would love to get it for 2K under that. But if you go into a dealer and tell them that you're not paying any more than the MSRP, they will usually have no trouble accomodating you.
Now if you don't think MSRP is a fair price to pay and you want to spend 8 hours at a dealership negotiating for a lower price than that, by all means go ahead. I'm not gonna judge you for it. But I personally don't have that kind of time, nor do I want to spend that much time at a dealership. I spent MORE than enough time there when I worked at one...
Originally Posted by Scoot
Keep in mind that's an "ex" stealership salesman answer. There's a reason I'm not in that business any more...
But I stand true to that. MSRP is a good middle ground. The dealership would love to charge you 2K over that, and they try hard to do so. You would love to get it for 2K under that. But if you go into a dealer and tell them that you're not paying any more than the MSRP, they will usually have no trouble accomodating you.
Now if you don't think MSRP is a fair price to pay and you want to spend 8 hours at a dealership negotiating for a lower price than that, by all means go ahead. I'm not gonna judge you for it. But I personally don't have that kind of time, nor do I want to spend that much time at a dealership. I spent MORE than enough time there when I worked at one...
But I stand true to that. MSRP is a good middle ground. The dealership would love to charge you 2K over that, and they try hard to do so. You would love to get it for 2K under that. But if you go into a dealer and tell them that you're not paying any more than the MSRP, they will usually have no trouble accomodating you.
Now if you don't think MSRP is a fair price to pay and you want to spend 8 hours at a dealership negotiating for a lower price than that, by all means go ahead. I'm not gonna judge you for it. But I personally don't have that kind of time, nor do I want to spend that much time at a dealership. I spent MORE than enough time there when I worked at one...
I consider MSRP the Top of the range for any negotiation, especially when it comes to a deal with a trade.
"Invoice" price is easy to find on 99% of the cars. This should be any person without a trade's target price.
With a trade, I like to go Retail-Retail for a deal. You give me retail price for my trade, I give you MSRP for your car. Some people go Wholesale/Invoce for their trade, and sometimes that works out to your advantage.
I also find that with no downpayment, MSRP +10% is the typical Max that you can finance with decent credit.
So MSRP is not really a "Fair" price in most circumstances, but a point at which the negotiation can begin and the price at which all dealerships are equal.
Here is an example of how I would negotiate a Deal.
Say I want a Nissan 350Z Base Model. (As an Example).
I would Visit each dealership that is local to me and write / email all dealerships within a 4 Hour drive.
I would simply state what I want, What I am willing to pay and my terms. Its clear, concise and to the point.
It gives the dealer a clear way to make money on an easy sell and allows me to dictate a reasonable deal.
____________________________
Example:
Hello,
I am currently in the market for a new, 2007 Nissan 350Z Base model.
I am looking for the following options: Manual Transmission, Floor Mats.
I will not accept cars modified with dealer added mark-up items like paint protection or VIN etching.
I will accept the following colors: Pikes Peak White, Redline, Solar Orange
I am willing to pay a maximum of $250 Over Invoice for the Vehicle, plus applicable tax & title fees
I will not accept dealer fees or processing fees.
I will consider in-house financing if the rate is below 5.5%.
I will also consider extended warranty options below $1,000.
If you have a vehicle that meets these requirements and the terms are acceptable, please contact me within 24 hours with your offer.
Thank You
Signed
Say I want a Nissan 350Z Base Model. (As an Example).
I would Visit each dealership that is local to me and write / email all dealerships within a 4 Hour drive.
I would simply state what I want, What I am willing to pay and my terms. Its clear, concise and to the point.
It gives the dealer a clear way to make money on an easy sell and allows me to dictate a reasonable deal.
____________________________
Example:
Hello,
I am currently in the market for a new, 2007 Nissan 350Z Base model.
I am looking for the following options: Manual Transmission, Floor Mats.
I will not accept cars modified with dealer added mark-up items like paint protection or VIN etching.
I will accept the following colors: Pikes Peak White, Redline, Solar Orange
I am willing to pay a maximum of $250 Over Invoice for the Vehicle, plus applicable tax & title fees
I will not accept dealer fees or processing fees.
I will consider in-house financing if the rate is below 5.5%.
I will also consider extended warranty options below $1,000.
If you have a vehicle that meets these requirements and the terms are acceptable, please contact me within 24 hours with your offer.
Thank You
Signed
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,100
Likes: 2
From: sims, nc
Originally Posted by Scoot
But I stand true to that. MSRP is a good middle ground.
MSRP is the price only an idiot would pay. Unless you are buying limited production, high demand specialty, no one would pay MSRP.
Perhaps you mean invoice price? I bought mine for $300 below invoice.
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,349
Likes: 0
From: Ohio
Originally Posted by Scoot
Keep in mind that's an "ex" stealership salesman answer. There's a reason I'm not in that business any more...
But I stand true to that. MSRP is a good middle ground. The dealership would love to charge you 2K over that, and they try hard to do so. You would love to get it for 2K under that. But if you go into a dealer and tell them that you're not paying any more than the MSRP, they will usually have no trouble accomodating you.
Now if you don't think MSRP is a fair price to pay and you want to spend 8 hours at a dealership negotiating for a lower price than that, by all means go ahead. I'm not gonna judge you for it. But I personally don't have that kind of time, nor do I want to spend that much time at a dealership. I spent MORE than enough time there when I worked at one...
But I stand true to that. MSRP is a good middle ground. The dealership would love to charge you 2K over that, and they try hard to do so. You would love to get it for 2K under that. But if you go into a dealer and tell them that you're not paying any more than the MSRP, they will usually have no trouble accomodating you.
Now if you don't think MSRP is a fair price to pay and you want to spend 8 hours at a dealership negotiating for a lower price than that, by all means go ahead. I'm not gonna judge you for it. But I personally don't have that kind of time, nor do I want to spend that much time at a dealership. I spent MORE than enough time there when I worked at one...
And no way in hell would I spend 8 hours in a dealership trying to get a fair price. I would promptly leave and go to another dealership. Simple.
MSRP fair? Fair to who? The salesman and the dealership and that's it.
A little "over invoice" deals are good for all. The dealership makes a profitable sale. The salesman can cut out all of the long BS speaches to try to jack the price up, and he makes commission and gets credit for a sale. The consumer also gets a good deal.
I have never started talks with a car salesman with MSRP in mind.
Nearly every vehicle I have ever purchased I have gotten for just a little over invoice. I always buy the latest copy of the Consumers Car Buying Guide. It has the MSRP listings as well as the dealership pricing for the vehicle and the option packages. Pretty nice publication IMO.
It is sales tactics like yours that give all salesmen a bad name. It sounds like you were trying to get a big commission from every single sale.
Last edited by hardrock905; Feb 22, 2007 at 02:21 PM.
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,396
Likes: 0
From: Orlando, FL
Originally Posted by hardrock905
The reason you're not in business any longer probably has a lot to do with the fact that you apparently do not know how to sell cars.
And no way in hell would I spend 8 hours in a dealership trying to get a fair price. I would promptly leave and go to another dealership. Simple.
MSRP fair? Fair to who? The salesman and the dealership and that's it.
A little "over invoice" deals are good for all. The dealership makes a profitable sale. The salesman can cut out all of the long BS speaches to try to jack the price up, and he makes commission and gets credit for a sale. The consumer also gets a good deal.
I have never started talks with a car salesman with MSRP in mind.
Nearly every vehicle I have ever purchased I have gotten for just a little over invoice. I always buy the latest copy of the Consumers Car Buying Guide. It has the MSRP listings as well as the dealership pricing for the vehicle and the option packages. Pretty nice publication IMO.
It is sales tactics like yours that give all salesmen a bad name. It sounds like you were trying to get a big commission from every single sale.
And no way in hell would I spend 8 hours in a dealership trying to get a fair price. I would promptly leave and go to another dealership. Simple.
MSRP fair? Fair to who? The salesman and the dealership and that's it.
A little "over invoice" deals are good for all. The dealership makes a profitable sale. The salesman can cut out all of the long BS speaches to try to jack the price up, and he makes commission and gets credit for a sale. The consumer also gets a good deal.
I have never started talks with a car salesman with MSRP in mind.
Nearly every vehicle I have ever purchased I have gotten for just a little over invoice. I always buy the latest copy of the Consumers Car Buying Guide. It has the MSRP listings as well as the dealership pricing for the vehicle and the option packages. Pretty nice publication IMO.
It is sales tactics like yours that give all salesmen a bad name. It sounds like you were trying to get a big commission from every single sale.
Invoice + TTL is what I will pay. Around here you also have to have them knock off the dealer fees so that you get to that number. Some dealers won't, but most have no issue. Even at invoice, the dealer is making a pretty penny. When they ask what it will take to make a deal, tell them. If they so no, leave and find it somewhere else. As the model year closes out, you can do much better than invoice. Also, go through the internet department, they normally will quote you invoice. Mine started at Invoice - 500 and that was a special order.
What I was also told is that they don't mind most of the time because there are some people that will come in and pay full MSRP.
Originally Posted by xyberai
Actually in talking to a employee my dad knows at the nissan dealership i was talking about, she said the salesmen there actually arn't on commission but get a huge boost in pay depending what they sell. Otherwise they get paid a flat rate. I can see if they wanted to get on to trying to sell cars to other people but when i was there, there was not one person on the lot besides me and another man that was already taken care of by another salesman.
That's not true, at least for the dealerships around here. I have two friends that have sold cars at Nissan when they were in between jobs. They were 100% commission and get extra $$$ depending on the number of units they sell per month. That is why they are so protective of their customers. Also, have you ever noticed that most salesmen will always ask you have you been here before or talked to anybody at the beginning of the prequalifying stage? The reason they do that is so they don't waste their time talking to somebody that another salesman has already worked. Now if that other guy is gone for some reason the the salesman will work the deal and they split the commission.
Originally Posted by Scoot
I worked as a salesman for about 6 months and just from reading some of the posts on this thread and others, I can say there are a lot of misconceptions about how a dealership actually operates.
It's true that most sales people don't know jack about the cars they sell. They are usually encouraged to learn, but there's never any test to make sure you know your stuff. Most sales people don't stay at any one dealership for a long time either, and a lot of sales people you will talk to have sold Fords, Hondas, Chevys... you name it. So there's never any incentive to learn the cars since they'll probably be somewhere else in a few months. The grass is always greener on the other side.
For most customers you really only need to know a basic knowledge to get by. Like someone said earlier, most customers care about how the car looks, how it fits them and how it drives. Some also care about mileage and safety, but a salesman can pull that info right off the window sticker. If that's all they care about, it should be no problem finding them a car. Selling is more about building trust, a good relationship and making the customer feel comfortable. That's just basic people skills.
The dealership is in the business of making money. To make the most money, you have to buy low and sell high. That means giving you low value for your trade in so they can make a profit on it when they resell it, and mark the new car up so they can get a considerable amount over what they paid for it.
It's like a game of Blackjack. The dealers have the slight advantage, and they know how to exploit that advantage. They do it multiple times a day and the model has worked forever, so they're pretty good at it. Hence the reason there's so much money in it. But if you go in there like a reasonable person, not try to be a dick you can actually get them on your side, and have them working like an agent for you.
Know what you want when you go in there. If you can show the sales people that you know more then they do, you will gain some of your advantage back. Also if you don't try to be a dick and be fair about the price, you'll have a better experience. The dealer isn't in business to hand cars out. There's no money in that. I don't recommend paying the marked up price, but MSRP is usually a fair price. The dealer still makes anywhere from $1K to $2K profit. If you go in there trying to get a car at invoice, then don't expect much for your trade in. They gotta make the deal worth it for them some how...
It's true that most sales people don't know jack about the cars they sell. They are usually encouraged to learn, but there's never any test to make sure you know your stuff. Most sales people don't stay at any one dealership for a long time either, and a lot of sales people you will talk to have sold Fords, Hondas, Chevys... you name it. So there's never any incentive to learn the cars since they'll probably be somewhere else in a few months. The grass is always greener on the other side.
For most customers you really only need to know a basic knowledge to get by. Like someone said earlier, most customers care about how the car looks, how it fits them and how it drives. Some also care about mileage and safety, but a salesman can pull that info right off the window sticker. If that's all they care about, it should be no problem finding them a car. Selling is more about building trust, a good relationship and making the customer feel comfortable. That's just basic people skills.
The dealership is in the business of making money. To make the most money, you have to buy low and sell high. That means giving you low value for your trade in so they can make a profit on it when they resell it, and mark the new car up so they can get a considerable amount over what they paid for it.
It's like a game of Blackjack. The dealers have the slight advantage, and they know how to exploit that advantage. They do it multiple times a day and the model has worked forever, so they're pretty good at it. Hence the reason there's so much money in it. But if you go in there like a reasonable person, not try to be a dick you can actually get them on your side, and have them working like an agent for you.
Know what you want when you go in there. If you can show the sales people that you know more then they do, you will gain some of your advantage back. Also if you don't try to be a dick and be fair about the price, you'll have a better experience. The dealer isn't in business to hand cars out. There's no money in that. I don't recommend paying the marked up price, but MSRP is usually a fair price. The dealer still makes anywhere from $1K to $2K profit. If you go in there trying to get a car at invoice, then don't expect much for your trade in. They gotta make the deal worth it for them some how...
I agreed with every thing you've said up to this point. Even if the dealer sells you the car at invoice they're still going to get money for hitting thier unit goals and get the holdback from the dealership. MSRP is not the best price you can get. It is true that import dealerships have less room to work with than domestics, but they're still going to make a good chunck of change coming off of MSRP.
Originally Posted by 2Cool4Skool
If ya want to shut him up ask him if he is the "closer". The first salesguy will be the guy that tries to get you to see the closer. Usually, the guys out front are the guys that suck at closing.... IOWs, they ain't got no skills. So when you ask him if he's da "closer", its kinda deflating to their ego cuz you're lettin him know indirectly you're onto their game and you know he really sucks. A couple weeks ago, I had some warranty work done at the dealer & the salesman was chattin me up & tellin me how he saw the new 07 270hp Altima go 160mph (no limiter?) so I asked him if he was a "closer" and he was all "whaa?... how do you know?..." and then admitted he was not a closer. No more BS.
"Dealer service fee" or similarly named fees are frequently found at dealerships that offer "free" oil changes. This fee (usually around $250) is pre-printed on the buyer order form to give the illusion that it's a standard, legally collectable fee such as TTL - which it is not. If you don't negotiate this fee away, then you are simply prepaying for your free oil changes. In other situations, it's also used as guaranteed profit for any sale. If you've negotiated a bottom line deal then it's nearly impossible to get this fee dropped because it may be the real profit for them. I've found that dealers employing this fee are best avoided.
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