At least I'm not talking out of my ***...

 

The subframe mounting point tears.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthr...=195602&page=3


As far as the M3 vs the 350Z thing, I don't know why people are so hung up on it. I know a few 350Z owners who willingly admit the M3 outclasses the 350Z in many ways but don't really care. They bought the Z because they liked it.

I couldn't afford an M3 that is past the "problem" years, nor could I afford most of the good conditioned used ones out there. Even then it doesn't gaurantee a problem-free ownership, when it comes down to thinkgs like electrical, weather striping, etc. plus there's always never knowing if the car was "abused" or not, etc.

Comes down to subjective opinion and what you consider to be the better value. the BMW is probably much easier to get into, definitely has better visiblity and interior space. The interior's appearance is entirely subjective, as the E46's interior can be seen as either "boring" or "high class." Personally, I think the AC vents are a bit noisy.

Flame on, guys!

 

SO much **** in here is wrong.

Subframe tearing is not a real issue on the M3, I think I've heard of 2 cases in the entire country, and I've been on E46fanatics, for years. I've seen 3 friends with subframe tears, all 323/328 manuals. All of them were covered by BMW with over 70k miles, FWIW.

That Video proves ****, it was wet, the Z started first, the M3 turned the fastest lap time, and caught the Z, if anything it proves the M3 is faster....

The M3's don't blow motors, they take boost as well as the VQ (probably better), and the early model years had some motor issues because of a crank bearing problem. That was fixed (buy 04 or newer as well for ECU changes).

And the 350z doesn't weigh 3600 lbs. I've yet to weigh mine (whenever I get home next) but most people report between 3150 and 3250 as the weight of the car, thats less than the M3...a lot less.

The M3's interior isn't great, but its not the barebones 350z interior either. I prefer the lack of amenities and the pure functionality of the Z's interior, but I also don't like wasting money on leather wrapped dash and door panels when they will wear out faster. Some people prefer those comforts (one day I will I'm sure). The Z has better suspension architecture, but the M3 has such a predictable setup that its hard to beat.

There is no clear better car for someone, the M3 is a bigger, faster, more luxurious, more expensive (just as good/better/worse looking), and older car. Take you pick which you prefer. I'd nod to the 8200 RPM I6 any day.

 

My bad about the 3600...I had the vert's figure in my head (which is 35xx). So the coupe is what...3300lbs +/-. Nissans's website has always posted weights above that mark, so I don't know why they'd lie or how all these "other" owners weigh their cars only to find that it's significantly less than factory specifications.

About the subframe points tearing, that is an issue primarily isolated to Z3 M coupes/roadsters...and even then, it's a relatively rare occurance that is brought on, most often, by excessive chassis abuse. And it was mostly the 01/02 M3's that would blow a motor, and the problematic examples have most likely already blown and been replaced. It's highly unlikely you're going to find one that slipped through the cracks. But if that worries you, dig a little deeper into the bank account and opt for a later model.

Anyway, well said Peak. Different strokes for different folks. If you buy the M3, or any used lower-production, performance vehicle, be aware that problems may/will arise, and you might have to reach into your own pockets to fix them. Pray that they're deep enough or that your bill is shallow enough.

 

Curb weight is with full fluids, a driver, etc. etc. Weights that owners report are usually low on gas and no driver (sometimes with). An E36 weighs, for example, around 3150 with 1/4 tank of gas, manual tranny, no driver. A 350z is 3200lbs +/- given same setup. E36 and 350z are about the same size cars.....(I owned an E36), the E46 is quite a bit larger and heavier.

And the subframe issue isn't just Z3 related. The non-M3 E46 chassis had significant early production year issues, all M3's (E36 and E46) had reinforcements because of the added torque loads. The issue stems from the differential carrier (aka subframe) being under load (torque) from the drive shaft. The load transfers into 4 points, 2 pulling down, 2 pushing up, the weight of the car also sits on thse 4 points, these points also act to keep the diff. from rotating along the axis of the wheels. This means that the right front mounting point had a significant loading in the downward direction and the sheet metal where the bolt passed through would become weakened through fatigue over time. Manual transmissions ability to shock the area would cause a tear - or failure. The solution's are easy, put a longer bolt through more pieces of metal and a big plate on top, fill the void in the chassis with an expanding structural foam (BMW AG's solution), or just weld some reinforcement plates in the area to help prevent cracking (OEM solution for M3's).

I never had issues on my E36 - but 3/4 friends with an E46 323/328 have had it tear, a 5th reinforced the area before it could.

I really want to race an M3 in a 0-150 run just to see how close I am. The only M3 I've ever seen run at the track locally ran his best time in 65 degree weather at 13.53, I've run 3 times in one night faster than that. My trap is consistantly higher....etc. I feel like the 07 is about even with the M3, although I'd give the edge to the M3 only because of redline and better LSD.

 

If you buy a E46 M3 get a CPO'd M3, if you get anything without a warranty, you will be so screwd in the end. The brake job alone will own your wallet. You need to remember it's a 60k dollar car, therefore the repair costs are considerably higher than a 350Z.

Do not, and I repeat, do not buy a low priced E46 M3. I know it's tempting but make the right decision before you get screwed over by BMW and their "ultimate crapping machine".

Have a nice day.

 

335i owns the m3.

 

Mine was weighed by a local race shop at 3100 lbs with 1/4 tank, no driver and no spare.

I really really like e36's btw. Terrific car.

 

Not on a road course.

 

Brakes on the M3 don't have to cost as much as you'd think (again, BMA parts, pelican parts, etc.) but the biggest reason for the cost is that the rotors are directionally vented, etc., which adds performance...and cost. Labor is just ridiculous, its a car you pretty much have to maintain yourself.

And to BumpinJeep, forgot to mention earlier. The M3 is one of the best sports cars to own as far as worrying about someone else breaking it in. The ECU has a lower rev limiter, less powerful fuel/timing maps, and a required break in oil change. You cannot in any way avoid break in. Further, the engine has a redline that increases as the oil gets up to temp, so that the owner doesn't accidentally cause damage from a cold start high rev situation. I wish more companies took the time to do this kind of stuff actually.

 

a used car is totally different... i would get a new car, you'll have less to worry about

 

I have a really hard time believing someone who can affford a 50k car would cross shop with a 20-30k car... unless you meant used M3's. In that case, if you really meant used, you should be a little more specific. That would help out.

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Very well said. Unfortunately, not everyone in this thread is being logical; they are completely different classes.

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hmmm... maybe because the M isn't a great car or terrific value? btw, in Canada the Z came out to 62,000 with tax. M3's were 90,000. I take your ****-*** 50k and laugh at it.

BMW used to make terrific cars. No doubt about that.

 

It seems you are the one who isn't being logical. Everyone has said that an M3 will perform better than a stock Z. And many (including me) have said they love M3's. However, we've also said that an M3 is more expensive, less reliable, heavier, more difficult to maintain, has less steering feel, interior look is subjective, looks are subjective, looks the same as lower-class models, and is not that faster around the track. Would I like one? Sure. But when I had the opportunity, I turned it down and went with the better car for the money.


Why are you such an angry person, skaterguy?

btw, Nobody really seems to care about the new M3.

 

Angry?

Debating doesn't mean im angry. I love civilized debates and I hardly ever show angry emotions. I'm far from an Angry person...

As far as the new M3, im sure it's less looked at only because not many people can afford an [estimated in U.S] 60k car.

I'm not responding to your other points for a few reasons; most of them are subjective, and you're speaking of Canadian dollars while im speaking of American dollars. It's a bit sad that even when converted into American dollars, the Z & M3, and practically almost every car, are highly inflated compared to American prices.

PS. I agree that a used M3 has too many problems with maintnance...or so I've heard.
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To me it seemed you were being far too defensive. How about, the M3 is the best sporty 4 seater seater (that actually has room for passengers I know of, except for the RS4.

And btw, not all people like to spend their money on a brand name, like BMW or Mercedes. They really are not great cars anymore.

 

Im soooo happy to see soooo many people getting upset over this topic..
No, really i am.. beacuse....
My two cents.. (Please remember i work for BMW)I can buy a BMW at Cost (infact less depending on circumstances) and i chose a 350Z to drive on a reg basis..

The fact is as much as i love BMW (and i really do) for the bang for buck to me is in the Nissan.. different car.. In my mind BMW has it over Nissan ALL DAY LONG. but that doesnt make the Nissan a bad car. just different..

peace..

 

Well, I don't own a BMW nor have I ever owned one. Therefore I have no need to be defensive. But I was just laughing a bit at a very few specific comments that implied that their 350Z was as much of a car as the M3.

Don't get me wrong. The 350Z is a heck of a car. I myself really like the Z . But it just shouldn't be compared to a car outside its class that is so much more expensive and has a different goal in the market.

Let's leave it this way, just as fast kiwi stated below: the 350Z is just a more practical reliable sports car to drive around, where as the M3 is more name for those who have big-bucks, and still want a fast sports car.

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i dont have an m3 but i do have an 01 325 i and bro honestly i loved the car until me and pops got slapped with the maintenance bill IMO i wouldnt get the m3 unless your for maintaining that so called "timeless" look, but if mods is what ur game then the Z is a much better option but again its up to your liking