Dealer gouging stories
Charter Member #88
Joined: Jun 2002
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From: Nashville,Tn
Originally posted by Zslinger
As for you "screwing" the dealership, good luck and godspeed?
As for you "screwing" the dealership, good luck and godspeed?
I heard about a gouging yesterday a touring model marked up to $43000.00!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not going to mention the dealer yet but this needs to stop. Nissan has tried to build an affordable sports car they need to move cars so they can keep the production line going.
Remember the death of the Z 32 the dealers had marked them up so much that it stopped selling. They only sold 2500 units the last year and had to shut the line down, if Nissan doesn’t move Z cars then there will be no Z car to buy no matter at any price
Not going to mention the dealer yet but this needs to stop. Nissan has tried to build an affordable sports car they need to move cars so they can keep the production line going.
Remember the death of the Z 32 the dealers had marked them up so much that it stopped selling. They only sold 2500 units the last year and had to shut the line down, if Nissan doesn’t move Z cars then there will be no Z car to buy no matter at any price
Rosenthal Nissan in Tysons Corner VA has got to be one of the worst.
They had a touring, 6MT and they wanted $44K! WTF!!
They had a touring, 6MT and they wanted $44K! WTF!!
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Joined: Sep 2002
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From: atlanta
I hope all of you with 'ethics' never ask a dealer to sell you a car for under MSPR just because they have a lot full of them. Supply and demand has worked well for our economy. Didn't the Soviets have price controls?
Charter Member #61
Joined: Jun 2002
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From: Courtland, Va.
I really don't have a problem with dealer's charging over MSRP for a vehicle in the showroom as long as they offer to order you one at MSRP. For a hot selling car in tight supply (at least for now)
the dealer may want a car in the showroom so you can actually see/touch it before ordering. If some fool or rich person can pay
10k over MSRP why not let the dealer go for it.
the dealer may want a car in the showroom so you can actually see/touch it before ordering. If some fool or rich person can pay
10k over MSRP why not let the dealer go for it.
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Joined: May 2002
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From: Houston
I think customer satisfaction is more important than raping customers for every penny you can.
Many of these dealers have pre-order customers that ordered cars more than 6 months ago, and gave the dealer a $1,000 deposit or more. Us pre-order customers just want a car, so why not satisfy them as soon as possible and get a good word out on the street?
I think that a dealer that tries to satisfy their pre-order customers first, in a fair manner, will end up far better off than these dealers that are gouging. I will never go back to Baker-Jackson Nissan once I receive my car because of their gouging and treatment of pre-order customers. This dealership is sitting on 3 cancelled pre-orders asking 10K over MSRP, and I sit and wait for a car that matches one on their lot.
One of these is a Chrome Silver 6MT with everything I ordered except the trunk mat. I asked them to sell me the CS in inventory at MSRP, I'd buy the mat from them at MSRP, and I could have the car now. They said "no", if I want it, I have to pay 10K over. With that attitude, why should I go back to that dealer once I get my car? They burn their own bridges. This is the same dealer that told me that if I wanted wheel locks for the 350, they would cost me $80.
Thankfully Courtesy Nissan sold me the wheel locks for $22 and change.
Greg
Many of these dealers have pre-order customers that ordered cars more than 6 months ago, and gave the dealer a $1,000 deposit or more. Us pre-order customers just want a car, so why not satisfy them as soon as possible and get a good word out on the street?
I think that a dealer that tries to satisfy their pre-order customers first, in a fair manner, will end up far better off than these dealers that are gouging. I will never go back to Baker-Jackson Nissan once I receive my car because of their gouging and treatment of pre-order customers. This dealership is sitting on 3 cancelled pre-orders asking 10K over MSRP, and I sit and wait for a car that matches one on their lot.
One of these is a Chrome Silver 6MT with everything I ordered except the trunk mat. I asked them to sell me the CS in inventory at MSRP, I'd buy the mat from them at MSRP, and I could have the car now. They said "no", if I want it, I have to pay 10K over. With that attitude, why should I go back to that dealer once I get my car? They burn their own bridges. This is the same dealer that told me that if I wanted wheel locks for the 350, they would cost me $80.
Thankfully Courtesy Nissan sold me the wheel locks for $22 and change.
Greg
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How to avoid Dealer Markups
People,
You just have to be a little agressive. I bought Nissan Xterra last year and went to the same dealer to see what he would quote me on the Z. He tried to play the dealer game and said that this car is marked up 5k and all dealers will have them marked up. I live in the DC metro area. Thats crap. This is not a ferrari enzo it is a nissan.
So with the magic of the internet( Autobytel.com) I got a call from another dealer in the area which said they are still at MSRP and they will not be marking up. They guy sent me an email so I have proof.
Now with this proof I will goto local dealerships and see if they can beat the price. If not I go to the dealer with MSRP. I got my first car below invoice and hopefully i will never pay any markup.
SO all DC metro area people avoid Gaithersburg Nissan, goto Herb Gordon Nissan.
J
You just have to be a little agressive. I bought Nissan Xterra last year and went to the same dealer to see what he would quote me on the Z. He tried to play the dealer game and said that this car is marked up 5k and all dealers will have them marked up. I live in the DC metro area. Thats crap. This is not a ferrari enzo it is a nissan.
So with the magic of the internet( Autobytel.com) I got a call from another dealer in the area which said they are still at MSRP and they will not be marking up. They guy sent me an email so I have proof.
Now with this proof I will goto local dealerships and see if they can beat the price. If not I go to the dealer with MSRP. I got my first car below invoice and hopefully i will never pay any markup.
SO all DC metro area people avoid Gaithersburg Nissan, goto Herb Gordon Nissan.
J
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I'm not sure this is price gouging yet. The car is in heavy demand, so what's to stop them from asking what they think they can get? If some SOB wants to go out and spend 10K over list, then why should a dealer not try to get it? If you were in the business of selling cars (or anything for that matter), you would do the same if people were going to pay it! That's not bad customer service - it's the reality of the market. Don't waste time feeling ashamed for your dealer or wanting to protect people from being ignorant and not doing their research - feel proud you did the smart thing and recognized a value early on. Those who missed out...well, missed out! Shame on them for overpaying. Yeah, sure...it sucks from an ethical standpoint, but this is a business and the dealers are creating a market out of stock that they get from "back-outs". They are in the position of having a car that is no longer spoken for, and it's a hot item. Obviously, it's foolish to buy the vehicle for such a price, but don't hate the "playa" - hate the game.
What's more pathetic - someone charging more for an item than it's worth or someone buying that item, fully aware they are paying more than they should.
What's more pathetic - someone charging more for an item than it's worth or someone buying that item, fully aware they are paying more than they should.
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I'm with Stemenc on this one. I think it's pathetic that anyone would pay over MSRP. Those people are trying to be "first on the block" with the new Z--but did not have the forsight to preorder. Instant gratification at any price. You can't tell me they don't know MSRP on the product they just purchased. Those people feel great that they beat the masses, but unfortunately for them, the masses aren't far behind. This "gouging" will be a tiny blip in history, with lots of Zs available this time next year (and lots of Zs on the road). After 3 years, those people will have paid $40K for a car that is worth $17K. I would be a little embarassed. They are simply buying in to the hype. It happens with new cars, a hot stock market, and kids' Christmas toys.
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Gentlemen, there's no need to start a political/economic discussion over dealers charging over MSRP. No product has intrinsic value; it's worth whatever the market will bear.
If you're a dealer, it's not unethical to charge what somebody is willing to pay. In fact, it's your responsibility. If you're a consumer, it's your responsibility to look for the best product at the lowest price.
So, just be patient and look for a dealer selling at MSRP.
I want to plug my dealer. Lawley Nissan in Sierra Vista, Arizona just took my order for delivery of a Chrome Silver Performance in December at MSRP. They've been friendly and helpful with me for some time, even when they didn't think I was going to buy from them. (I'm in the military and I'm moving soon. So, they thought I'd be buying after I moved.)
If you're a dealer, it's not unethical to charge what somebody is willing to pay. In fact, it's your responsibility. If you're a consumer, it's your responsibility to look for the best product at the lowest price.
So, just be patient and look for a dealer selling at MSRP.
I want to plug my dealer. Lawley Nissan in Sierra Vista, Arizona just took my order for delivery of a Chrome Silver Performance in December at MSRP. They've been friendly and helpful with me for some time, even when they didn't think I was going to buy from them. (I'm in the military and I'm moving soon. So, they thought I'd be buying after I moved.)
Thread Starter
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Joined: Aug 2002
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From: Coconut Creek, FL
I understand that there is much debate about whether or not the gouging is "ethical" HOWEVER, I would prefer to see if we can all keep this thread to just "reporting" actual gouging instances.
Then we can forward this to Nissan and let them decide if this is what they want. Maybe Nissan wants the publicity of releasing a car with such demand that they can command way over MSRP pricing. Maybe they don't and feel it is negitive publicity and against their goals of image creation.
Bottom line is not to discuss the right or wrong of it. But to point out how prevelant or not it is.
Hopefully This thread can also be used as a sort of barameter to gauge how the market is and if and when dealers start selling more at MSRP and eventually below MSRP.
As was stated before. It is very much a case of supply and demand. Through this type of thread we can measure this.
Thanks.
Then we can forward this to Nissan and let them decide if this is what they want. Maybe Nissan wants the publicity of releasing a car with such demand that they can command way over MSRP pricing. Maybe they don't and feel it is negitive publicity and against their goals of image creation.
Bottom line is not to discuss the right or wrong of it. But to point out how prevelant or not it is.
Hopefully This thread can also be used as a sort of barameter to gauge how the market is and if and when dealers start selling more at MSRP and eventually below MSRP.
As was stated before. It is very much a case of supply and demand. Through this type of thread we can measure this.
Thanks.
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MSRP
.........here's hoping we don't wait a full year for price versus supply to stabilize the feeding frenzy....................I'm still saving my Naval Reserve pay for a base 350Z circa next spring. Meanwhile it's (act in haste;repent at leisure) Solara time.....ez
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Joined: Sep 2002
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From: Boulder Co
I agree with what a lot of you are saying. I think some people, myself included, can see a line when a dealer crosses from ethical to unethical business practices. $10,000 over MSRP is abslutely ridiculous.
I think you are right on the money (literally!), garthg. Nissan is definately trying to build the brand. I feel that dealers who let customers leave with a bad taste in their mouth are doing both themselves and Nissan a huge disservice. Unfortunately, a dissatisfied customer tends to be much more vocal about their experiences than a satisfied customer.
How about this....Nissan worked very hard to try to make an awesome, affordable sports car. They were trying to improve their company reputation and they wanted people to think that Nissan was awesome. Well these sh--head dealers make us all hate nissan for what we have to go through. Dealers are ruining the hardwork of the engineers and planners. -garthg
I think you are right on the money (literally!), garthg. Nissan is definately trying to build the brand. I feel that dealers who let customers leave with a bad taste in their mouth are doing both themselves and Nissan a huge disservice. Unfortunately, a dissatisfied customer tends to be much more vocal about their experiences than a satisfied customer.
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From: Indiana
Dealers are in business to make money, and I fully support their efforts to earn as good a living as they can. They do not owe the public (not even us Z fanatics) a fair price or even a reasonable price. We live in a market economy, not a socialist republic. Personally I am thrilled that the general public feels that the Z is worth $10k over sticker. I'd like to see that last for as long as possible. When the Z becomes readily available for MSRP or less, that will mean it has become just another car.
Anyone who thinks that Nissan is unaware of how dealers sell their cars is extremely naive. I believe that a major reason they did the pre-order was to try to get the first batch of cars into the hands and garages of Z enthusiasts before the marks-up began.
You are wasting your time "gathering evidence" of markups, as Nissan can not and will not do a thing about it.
Anyone who thinks that Nissan is unaware of how dealers sell their cars is extremely naive. I believe that a major reason they did the pre-order was to try to get the first batch of cars into the hands and garages of Z enthusiasts before the marks-up began.
You are wasting your time "gathering evidence" of markups, as Nissan can not and will not do a thing about it.
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I was told by my Dealer that Nissan would not allow them to sell pre-orders over MSRP. However, cars they have in stock, they can charge whatever people are willing to pay.
I was a bit leary about ordering a car I had never seen in person, as I had never done that before. I asked the Sales Manager what my options were if I didn't want the car. He said you just lose the deposit. He went on to say, that they cannot get the pre-orders unless they are ordered by someone, and that they will make more money on a car if someone decides to not take it. In other words, they will charge over MSRP for Zs on their lot.
Frankly, if I do not decide to take the car, I'm guessing I'll be able to get my $500 deposit back. I'll just let the dealer know if they don't give the deposit back, I'll simply buy it and re-sell it. For them, its the difference of making $500, or a couple of thousand.
At any rate, I see nothing wrong with charging what the market is willing to pay. For those of you that do, was Nissan unethical for auctioning off the first production Z on Ebay for $90,000? Of course not. To someone with alot of money out there, having the first production model as a collectors item, was worth it to them, to pay almost 3 times what the MSRP of the car is.
I think some of you confuse price gouging with how a free market economy works. First of all, owning a new Z is a luxury item. It is not a necessity. It is not something you need to survive. The demand for the car, far out weighs the supply. Its simple economics: Short supply + High Demand = Higher Prices. That's how a fair market enocomy works. It is not unfair to charge a premium for a luxury item. People are paying these premium prices, or they wouldn't be charging that much.
Price Gouging is taking advantage of artificial changes to supply and demand related to goods and services that are considered a necessity, and it usually occurs after some type of tragedy or natural disaster. Increased food prices after a Hurricane ..... increased hotel and gas prices in certain areas after 9/11 ..... those are examples of unethical price gouging. Dealers charging a few thousand over MSRP on a luxury item, because a whole lot of people what that item, is far from price gouging.
The bottom line is, a 350z is a luxury item, not a necessity (a car may be considered a necessity, but there are a tons of car options, other than a Z). That alone would exclude it from price gouging laws.
I was a bit leary about ordering a car I had never seen in person, as I had never done that before. I asked the Sales Manager what my options were if I didn't want the car. He said you just lose the deposit. He went on to say, that they cannot get the pre-orders unless they are ordered by someone, and that they will make more money on a car if someone decides to not take it. In other words, they will charge over MSRP for Zs on their lot.
Frankly, if I do not decide to take the car, I'm guessing I'll be able to get my $500 deposit back. I'll just let the dealer know if they don't give the deposit back, I'll simply buy it and re-sell it. For them, its the difference of making $500, or a couple of thousand.
At any rate, I see nothing wrong with charging what the market is willing to pay. For those of you that do, was Nissan unethical for auctioning off the first production Z on Ebay for $90,000? Of course not. To someone with alot of money out there, having the first production model as a collectors item, was worth it to them, to pay almost 3 times what the MSRP of the car is.
I think some of you confuse price gouging with how a free market economy works. First of all, owning a new Z is a luxury item. It is not a necessity. It is not something you need to survive. The demand for the car, far out weighs the supply. Its simple economics: Short supply + High Demand = Higher Prices. That's how a fair market enocomy works. It is not unfair to charge a premium for a luxury item. People are paying these premium prices, or they wouldn't be charging that much.
Price Gouging is taking advantage of artificial changes to supply and demand related to goods and services that are considered a necessity, and it usually occurs after some type of tragedy or natural disaster. Increased food prices after a Hurricane ..... increased hotel and gas prices in certain areas after 9/11 ..... those are examples of unethical price gouging. Dealers charging a few thousand over MSRP on a luxury item, because a whole lot of people what that item, is far from price gouging.
The bottom line is, a 350z is a luxury item, not a necessity (a car may be considered a necessity, but there are a tons of car options, other than a Z). That alone would exclude it from price gouging laws.
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this has got to be the biggest load of BS ever
All of you who are objecting to the sleazy, unthinkable profit motive of dealers -- I have one simple question --
When a car is over stocked, let's say hard to sell, do you still buy it at MSRP??
Do you walk in and say "the MSRP, that's the price. TAKE my money please"?? Admit it if you are a fool, you can wake up later.
I think you buy it at or slightly below invoice, taking advantage of the dealer (really taking advantage of the free enterprise, American way) -- you sleazy one way devils !!!
When a car is over stocked, let's say hard to sell, do you still buy it at MSRP??
Do you walk in and say "the MSRP, that's the price. TAKE my money please"?? Admit it if you are a fool, you can wake up later.
I think you buy it at or slightly below invoice, taking advantage of the dealer (really taking advantage of the free enterprise, American way) -- you sleazy one way devils !!!
Joined: Jun 2002
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Reprise #2
I can't believe dealer price gouging has gone from that to socialism/ capitalism, luxury item, ad nauseum. One other little
tidbit for paying over MSRP.
I'll give you an example: a friend got in early on a new Thunderbird, loaded, red on red/black interior, beautiful car. The seller charged her $3K over MSRP. When she went to her insurance company they would insure it only for MRSP. If she totals the car, she gets MSRP, it gets stolen MSRP, its in a tornado MSRP. She didn't know this and she was very upset at the thought of losing $3K If something happens, all you get is MSRP, my friend offered to pay the difference in the premium to include the car's value at $3K over, no go the insurance agent said they could only reimburse the book value of the car, period.
It was a surprise to me, I had never heard of it before, but I never pay over the stated value on anything except, I paid $299 over the price of the Z. They wanted $299 for PDI and $99 for a documents fee. I said it was a hidden charge and they needed to remove it. My salesman, who has become the sales manager, came back with $100 knocked off. I said ok, not enough to squabble about, plus they had done a perfect PDI on the car. It was worth it to me to see the Z for the first time gleaming in the sun. No orange peel, no scratches, looking like a highly polished ruby. Back to the topic, if you pay over MSRP, you run a chance of losing it if the unthinkable happens. At least, my friend would with her insurance company; how about yours?
Boomer--Adam Smith is dead, just like trickle down economics, of interest to academics only.
tidbit for paying over MSRP.
I'll give you an example: a friend got in early on a new Thunderbird, loaded, red on red/black interior, beautiful car. The seller charged her $3K over MSRP. When she went to her insurance company they would insure it only for MRSP. If she totals the car, she gets MSRP, it gets stolen MSRP, its in a tornado MSRP. She didn't know this and she was very upset at the thought of losing $3K If something happens, all you get is MSRP, my friend offered to pay the difference in the premium to include the car's value at $3K over, no go the insurance agent said they could only reimburse the book value of the car, period.
It was a surprise to me, I had never heard of it before, but I never pay over the stated value on anything except, I paid $299 over the price of the Z. They wanted $299 for PDI and $99 for a documents fee. I said it was a hidden charge and they needed to remove it. My salesman, who has become the sales manager, came back with $100 knocked off. I said ok, not enough to squabble about, plus they had done a perfect PDI on the car. It was worth it to me to see the Z for the first time gleaming in the sun. No orange peel, no scratches, looking like a highly polished ruby. Back to the topic, if you pay over MSRP, you run a chance of losing it if the unthinkable happens. At least, my friend would with her insurance company; how about yours?
Boomer--Adam Smith is dead, just like trickle down economics, of interest to academics only.
Last edited by Boomer; Sep 20, 2002 at 11:26 AM.
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Joined: May 2002
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From: Great White North
I ordered my car in late February, 2002 and I am expecting my car sometime in November (October production). I still don't have my VIN. I had turned down a pre-order from a DIFFERENT DEALER that same day in February because they were asking for 1000.00 over MSRP and now I found out that they have a car for sale for 5000.00 over MSRP.
I am just wandering what is there to prevent a dealer from filling up the preorder slots and pushing your pre-order slot further back so they can may more money selling the car off the lot?
I am just wandering what is there to prevent a dealer from filling up the preorder slots and pushing your pre-order slot further back so they can may more money selling the car off the lot?
Last edited by Zman; Sep 20, 2002 at 02:17 PM.
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From: Los Angeles, USA
It's been three years now since the S2000 was released in Fall 1999, and many dealers still consider it standard procedure to attempt to charge a "market adjustment." There are some markets in the US where this will continue long after it's become utterly illogical elsewhere. It all depends on whether a buyer will eventually wander in and pay the markup. The only power you have to affect it is by making your own choice to not pay that price. If you live in one of those cities, life is harder for you.
You as a buyer need not worry because there are always other markets to choose from. If you live in a larger state like California, you can always go to Palm Desert or Bakersfield, or wherever and find your car at MSRP. It just takes a little more work.
If you're waiting to buy a Z, you have an advantage because Nissan will be selling these cars in greater numbers than Honda ever did. Honda only sold about 9,000 S2000s in the US per year, but Nissan will be selling 30,000 to 40,000 Zs I believe. The dealers are trying to get everything they can out of this gravytrain now because they know it won't last long. I would estimate 6-8 months before pricing is mostly corrected everywhere. Until then, the normal carbuying rules apply. Contact fleet sales and Internet sales managers, and try shopping during the week between Christmas and New Years Day. You may indeed get lucky.
You as a buyer need not worry because there are always other markets to choose from. If you live in a larger state like California, you can always go to Palm Desert or Bakersfield, or wherever and find your car at MSRP. It just takes a little more work.
If you're waiting to buy a Z, you have an advantage because Nissan will be selling these cars in greater numbers than Honda ever did. Honda only sold about 9,000 S2000s in the US per year, but Nissan will be selling 30,000 to 40,000 Zs I believe. The dealers are trying to get everything they can out of this gravytrain now because they know it won't last long. I would estimate 6-8 months before pricing is mostly corrected everywhere. Until then, the normal carbuying rules apply. Contact fleet sales and Internet sales managers, and try shopping during the week between Christmas and New Years Day. You may indeed get lucky.
