Although the SMG (and other sequentials) are automated -- they are not automatics. The defining characteristic of an automatic (to most in the know at least) is the presence of a torque converter and absence of a traditional clutch. I am not saying that the SMG is a manual. It's not -- but it is also not an automatic. It is a new -- third type of tranny. Actually fourth type if you include CVT's as a new type -- which I think they are.

Ultimately -- I am saying that a sequential is NOT an automatic.

 

Did you read the link I posted with the Dealer Manual from BMW? If you want to discuss the merits of using a torque converter or direct friction plates to transfer power, that is a whole seperate discussion. BMW the company called it's very own SMG transmission "FULLY AUTOMATIC". I don't think you are (in the know) more about SMG than BMW. I'm going to go with BMW on this one.

 

My first post on the forum! Currently I drive an 03 Celica but next summer I will be getting an 05 Z Touring pkg.

I have spent a fair amount of time on the Celica forums as well as the RX-8 and the Z. Since the Z won in my next car purchase, here I am. Anyway, every sport(ish) car forum I go to always gets into this AT verses MT debate . . . insert existential sigh here.

Why do MT enthusiasts care that some prefer AT? Is it preventing the MT people from experiencing what they want from a car? I simply don't understand why anyone would spend so much emotive/intellectual energy railing against the people who prefer AT in a sports car. If it makes you feel superior to roll with the MT--great. Gloat in self importance and self aggrandizement, but please spare us all the weak, chest thumping, logic lacking arguments about how your MT car is better.

All the arguments about better performance, being more in tune with the vehcile etc . . . rant on. However, I caution how you spend you energy becuase I supsect that those that chose the AT Z did so for reasons that make sense to them that you are unlikely to be privy to--and, most importantly, the AT Z owner probably does not care at all what you think. Does anyone actually believe the average AT buyer is unaware of the typical reasons to favor the MT?

Personally, I am still on the fence as to what I will order, but trust that it is the car that will make me happy and I will amke an informed decision based on exploring the pros and cons of both sides of the debate.

 

Holy cow, dude, you're making the very point I made above: "idiot driver" counts for a lot, and a good driver will easily make up for the marginal advantage a manual has over an auto, all other things being equal.

As for who cares, apparently you do. YOU brought up the point about fat rich guys driving that sort of cars; my point was that, just looking at the cars and NOT considering the drivers, there are cars with autos that don't even look anything like "performance" cars that can beat an M3. The cornering #s of the two cars are close enough that if the track has any straights at all w/room to pass, the M won't be able to stay ahead. You disagree; OK, but a blanket assumption that autos can't be performance cars is just as nonsensical as saying "all manuals are performance cars. Do you really think the E can't hang? Look at the test numbers.

Or were you including the "old, fat, rich" driver in your assessment in your earlier post? If so, please be advised that some old, fat, rich guys could probably school you (and, yes, me as well) on the track. Any assumption about whether a guy (or gal) is a good performance driver or not based on age, sex, weight, wallet size, or nature of transmission would be ill-founded.

Finally, I don't deny for a second that the M3 in ANY form is a GREAT car, but if you feel so strongly about it, why trade it?

 

Come on in there, Lance! Well put and articulate. Some folks have actually attacked the auto folks about why we feel the need to defend ourselves, but as a guy who has owned two manual sports cars in the last year (S2000 and G35 coupe 6MT) and has been on both sides of the fence, the question is why do SOME manual folks feel the need to flame and verbally insult auto drivers? I can't figure out for the life of me why SOME people who make the very rational and excellent choice of a manual transmission can't be satisfied with that choice without denigrating someone's else's choice.

Again, NONE of this post is addressed to those manual owners (I was one just a month ago, after all ) who acknowledge that different choices are right for different folks, and that the choice of an auto, particularly in this car, doesn't necessarily mean that the driver isn't "masculine," "performance" oriented, or a true "enthusiast," any more than driving a manual necessarily makes you any of those three things. And likewise, NONE of these remarks are directed at those manual owners who have calmly explained and/or defended their choice of a manual, or even why they believe it to be "better" (I haven't seen a single 5AT owner deny that the 6MT is a bit quicker, if the driver knows what (s)he's doing).

The FEW manual drivers who feel the need to insult the auto crowd beg the question, why? It seems that one of the reasons those few bought the car was not to actually go faster or be able to out perform a challenger in the car, but to make themselves FEEL more manly; what does that say about your masculinity? Do you really believe that "the car makes the man"? The most manly guy I know, in the stereotypical sense, is a huge, outdoorsman type that drives around (slowly) in a little 4-banger Nissan Frontier full of guns and usually a couple of dogs in the back, who's so bloomin' strong he could probably stomp a mud puddle through just about anybody's behind, but my WIFE could drive rings around him in ANY performance car, and I don't think he cares.

If you're one of those FEW that apparently believe "the manual makes the man," what happens to your masculinity when a guy with an auto Z (or hey, an auto Civic w/$45k in mods--unlikely, yeah, but possible; it's the most modded car in the history of modding) out-drives you w/your manual? One of the G forums I posted on regularly had a very popular member who bought the 5AT coupe, had to defend himself online against similar attacks, then started autocrossing it, with some failures early on, but then was dusting more powerful cars after a while, and then became local president of the SCCA chapter in a huge city (or are all those SCCA guy just wussies?). What happens if a (GASP!) woman out drives you? Or a gay man? Or , OMG, a GAY WOMAN WITH AN AUTO (HOLY EMASCULATION, BATMAN, WE'VE GOT SHRINKAGE!!!!!)?

 

Well put Darthvol! I love the Z but quite frankly getting wound up over tenths of a second in performance due to transmissions is not what I love about cars.

I'm looking for style and "reasonable" performance for the buck. Of all the cars on the market right now the Z speaks to me the loudest (ok, it's more of a bellow!). It doesn't matter to me if one of you racing folks spank me off the line getting to the next light. I don't validate my self worth that way.

I'm not a racer and don't have such aspirations, so an AT will get me by just fine...if that's the route I decide to go. I am equal opportunity Z lover (a Z ***** if you will). They are all good with me AT or MT, just depends on what you want out of the car.

 

Wow, I got bored about 1/3 of the way through this thread. Anyone who feels they are a better person for the kind of transmission they chose, is simply mentally handicapped. So, you should quit trying to prove to them that they are wrong, because they do not have the mental capacity to understand.

 

This is a troll thread responding to a troll thread. The point here is not to decide whether 6MT or 5AT is better, but to create argument for the sake of argument. I applaud the people who tried to explain that neither choice is "better," but it just won't work. These threads are flamefests, period. If you want to post, fine. Just don't expect your post to contribute anything unless you pick a side and defend it against all rational argument.

FWIW, I'd probably go for the 5AT. I don't race, I don't performance mod, I don't get bored driving auto, and I could care less what the kids (from what I observe, I believe that the majority of the vituperative 6MT posters are young) say about my manhood or my driving skills. Fine, your manual is faster than my auto. Good job. You bought a faster car than me. You modded it? Excellent. Your car is definitely faster than mine. Oh, you can beat me in the quarter mile? Nice. Your 6MT gives you more control? Wonderful. You're better than me because you can drive a manual? Perfect. Do you feel better now that you've clearly established your automotive superiority? Good for you.

I guess I'll never be a racer. Apparently I lack the car AND the ego for it. I will, however, enjoy turning up my system and driving the speed limit in the right-hand lane while I drink my overpriced Frappucino and wish I had 6MT so I can show that yes, indeed, I am a Man and driving my 6MT Real Fast proves what the ********* have been trying to tell me for years.

/sarcasm

The best part was when I combined Frappucinos with slow driving and *********. Mmmmm, Frappucino.

 

i just read the thread and my response is that the origonal poster is right .............i've driven both and the auto is nice in traffic and for looks but IT'S A SPORTS CAR...for certain people an auto is ideal but for a sports car person manual is the only choice.
it really gives a totally different fealing to the car. i have more fun driving my z than my friends 450hp tt auto supra.

 

P.S. stick isn't that hard to learn so wipe the sand ou of your vaginas and learn it

 

Bah -- I only chimed into the thread to right some misconceptions about sequentials -- not to debate the merits of an Auto.

As for fat, rich, old men in Mercs -- I meant no offense. I just do not like (or respect) MB's approach to performance cars (loads of torque, auto trannys, no LSD -- or junky ones). I just feel that it appeals to lowest common denominator in performance auto. The ones that would not sniff at an Elise because it only has 190 hp -- failing to see the beauty in the Lotus approach.

As for your last question. I loved my M3. Without a doubt the finest car I have ever driven (and I have driven plenty). And the best car out there for less than $100k in my opinion (the GT3 is just over). To answer your question -- I was on the corporate treadmill. Absurd hours and equally absurd pay -- but I was not liking it. I made a lifestyle change and took lower paying job with a lot more free time so I have an actual life. The M3 was an extravagence that I did not need. So I cut it loose. It was hard -- but the right decision. Now I have my sites set on a 350Z (or maybe a nice 2001 or 02 M Coupe if I can find the right one). But nothing too absurd -- but something I can hustle round a track and enjoy on weekends.

One thing I learned in my track time. You don't need a 400hp to have a great time. Just get something that turns well.

 

^ This is the most Intellegent post in this Entire thread. MODS, how about we close this ridiculous ****ing stomping ground for immature wannabe racer manual fanboys.

 

wOw i can't believe this thread is still lingering on...apologize for the "Trolling thread." I was just venting reasonable explanations of intent<----at least I'm learning more about sequentials

 

Hey shimZ,

This is still a Z Forum where we share information. Just so you don't feel that this thread was a total waste here's some info you might find interesting and relevant to the Nissan 5AT.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by SteveZ33
Aggro_Al,
This is very cool and interesting information. Where can I find the offical Nissan description of the 5AT that states that the tranny indeed uses an algorithm to adapt shift programs? I looked in the sellers brochure and there is no mention of it. Did Nissan publish it on the web somewhere? In no way I'm saying that this info is untrue, because I want it t be ;0) I just would like to see Nissans explanation. Thanks for the interesting reading.
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Yeah, Nissan did a **** poor job of letting people know that the 350Z has an real-time learning ATC transmission. The only mention of it on the Nissan website is when you go into "Design Your 350Z" as you build the car and get into the drivetrain section click on the automatic transmission description and you get a little window saying that it uses an "advanced computer system yaddah yaddah yaddah". BIG WHOOP! It doesn't exactly express the 5AT's performance capabilities. The G35C does a better job of describing the system and the Z has better software. Also, the technology is more relevant in the Z because it is a sports car! Since there are almost no professional reviews of the 5AT 350Z most people are unaware of the real-time learning ATC feature

If I were in Nissan marketing, I would spend some time and money letting people know that the Z's auto transmission is just as advanced as the exotics. But, in their infinite wisdom they decided to downplay it.

Here is an excerpt from Ron Sessions' book "The Story of the New Z" that has a brief description of the Z's auto transmission:


[ ... The 350Z's all-new 5M-ATx 5-speed allows full manual control, and is one of the industry's lightest, smallest, most-advanced full-range autoboxes. Compared to the previous-generation Z's 4-speed automatic, the new transmission is 48.5 pounds (22 kg) lighter, yet offers 52 pound-feet (70 Nm)-higher torque capacity.

Its low-intertia gear train consists of three planetary gearsets, six clutches, one band and a single one-way roller clutch with many of the pieces made from die-cast aluminum. The transmission's direct-control system uses individual actuators to regulate the pressure of each clutch and band and offers synchronized, torque-managed shifts from 1st to 4th gears. A real-time learning algorithm helps the transmission continuously tailor shifting performance to the driver's habits and patterns. A new compact E-Flow torque converter locks up in both 4th and 5th gears as part of a strategy to improve fuel economy. It also features a multi-disc clutch for smoother engagement. New "fill-for-life" ATF means the transmission fluid never has to be changed under normal driving conditions. Nissan is justifiably proud of the work it's done on the Z's automatic transmission and has applied for approximately 100 patents on this gearbox ... ]


As you can see the Z's 5AT is a sophisticated and capable transmission.

Here are some links on Adatptive Transmission Control (ATC)

http://www.carlist.com/autoglossary/...ossary_31.html

I think the Nissan version is more advanced but the Siemens VDO site does a good job of describing what a real-time learning ATC is.
http://www.siemensvdo.com/com/pressa...ticleID=06006e

These systems are very similar to the Z 5AT and there is more info on their respective websites.

Porsche Tiptronic S
BMW Steptronic
Mercedes-Benz AMG SpeedShift
Aston Martin Touchtronic 2

There are several torque converter based transmissions with some type of manual mode but, there are very few with real-time learning ATCs that are advanced as the Nissan 5AT. Even the ATCs on the sequential shifters aren't the driver adaptable learning type. The better sequentials are at best driver selectable. The best of the sequentials probably being BMW's DriveLogic. I'm not aware of any standard autos that employ any form of ATC and standard manuals have no electronic controls or computers to implement ATC.


quote:
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By looking at the gearing the 5AT will be at a higher speed in 1st, but take longer to get there.


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This is sort of true. Don't forget the 6MT is a mechanical system and the 5AT is a hydraulic system. The torque converter can increase torque through multiplication. This is why it's called a torque converter.

http://www.victrans.com/multiplication.html
Torque Multiplication Explained

 

E46 M3s don't have auto (SMG and Manual). I was talking about E36 M3s. There are a lot of them in Boston area. The US spec E36 M3 are lower spec than the EU models and even more so with AT, hence are fairly easy to catch even in a puny GS-R.

 

What many people do not think about, when it comes to performance, is that the 5AT cars have a different final drive ratio. The tranny gears are taller, respectively 1st vs 1st etc.., because there are only 5 gears vs the MT's 6 gears. The final drive, in the rear pumpkin, is also taller in the 5AT at 3.357 vs the 6MT at 3.538. With the same gearing ratios I highly doubt this 5AT would put down less RWHP than the 6MT cars. The only real advantage of a MT is the ability to control RPMS. This does take skill and does leave room for error. I highly doubt many of the 6MT drivers on this board and across the world can say they have never made a shifting error, more like many shifting errors in their day. Also, many people are telling us 5AT owners to learn how to drive a 6MT. Well, I know how to drive one, still own one in my 69 Camaro SS, and still chose to purchase the Z with a 5AT. Why, because when I go out to the bars at night and pick up hot chicks, they can drive my drunk azz home in my car

 

On a dyno, part of the HP difference between the two transmissions can be attributed to the torque converter. In the higher RPMs, the torque converter in the 5AT will have a little more driveline loss than the 6MT. The difference is about 3%-5%. This is within the margin error of most dynos so the performance of some 5ATs might overlap some of the 6MTs if you graphed them. In the real world I doubt that you would even notice the difference. In the lower to mid RPMs the 5AT will have better torque management than the 6MT because of the torque converter. You will probably notice this. The torque converter can also multiply torque or create more torque.

Just curious, in what way did you mean that the 5AT wouldn't be able to control RPMs?

In auto and manual mode, the 5AT is faster shifting with no missed shift. In it's most aggressive profile the 5AT can shift in a fraction of a second. It is almost as fast as the sequential shifters. If you know someone who can shift faster manually, let's get that guy racing, he would decimate all other drivers. It is possible for a professional or a very talented driver in the 6MT or the 5AT in manual mode to pick better shift points than the computer. But, it wouldn't be as consistent as the 5AT in auto mode. If the driver in the 6MT or the 5AT in manual mode shifts at less than optimal, they will get owned by the computer.

 

i feel bad for the thread starter. i used to post ish like this, when i had an auto altima. the saddest part is how he clearly confirms that he wishes he had a manual.

hate is primarily bread by envy.

...just remember this: sometimes i wish that i still had an auto. the alti was so easy to rape at every stop light, just crush the pedal to the floor. it takes work to drive my z that fast... sure, it's fun to feel the power. ...but why worry about a cop seeing you slide a little bit when trying to beat traffic while turning or whatever, auto is so much more relaxing.

it's funny, i feel the manual for the most part makes me drive much slower overall.

 

Excellent info Aggro_Al! Thx.

 

Your Camaro has a 6-speed? Get out of here!

I'm not an auto expert by any means, but I thought an auto could have more losses because it requires fluid sheer for the transfer of power.