Oil Additive Scam
11-02-2004 | 10:21 AM
#21
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From: Another dimension
Originally posted by Z1 Performance
I am sure that for every horror story, there are success stories. Same goes for Amsoil honestly....I have seen it wreak havoc on some cars and on others its worked well.
I am sure that for every horror story, there are success stories. Same goes for Amsoil honestly....I have seen it wreak havoc on some cars and on others its worked well.
11-02-2004 | 06:04 PM
#22
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From: Arlington Washington
Originally posted by Shamblin
"EBaDENTly . . ."
BTW; what do you use in your z and in what climate are you (what oil, & what filter)?
"EBaDENTly . . ."
BTW; what do you use in your z and in what climate are you (what oil, & what filter)?
11-02-2004 | 08:30 PM
#23
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From: Another dimension
Originally posted by Kumacho
I live in the northwest, so the climate varies quite a bit. I Autocross and track the car as much as I can. I am using Casterol GTX with a mobile 1 oil filter.
I live in the northwest, so the climate varies quite a bit. I Autocross and track the car as much as I can. I am using Casterol GTX with a mobile 1 oil filter.
I think Casterol GTX is what was in there before the switch to Amsoil; hmmm . . . doing a 360 on this one!
If the Amsoil had the API donut on the bottles, I'd probably just stick with it. But since it doesn't, and my luck is so notorious, maybe I ought to play it safe and bail on the Amsoil.
I'm wondering if you've seen their bypass filter system . . . basically a "Y" that puts most of the oil throught the reg. filter, but the other leg goes through a super fine filter that would be way too restrictive as the main filter. But this way, it isn't restrictive and filters all the oil every 5 min. or so while driving around 55. The bypass filter can remove particles 1/4th or 1/5th the size of a reg. filter, so your oil stays like new (so does your engine). Sounds simple and logical to me. And since you've pointed out that the filter is the focal point . . .
Comments?
My middle brother Rick drove semi's for a living for years for different companies, and he had one truck that had just a regular dual-filter setup (2 of the same filters, in series). Even this he said made an incredible difference in keeping the oil lookiing so clean it looked like brand new even when it was time to change it. Even when it was way way past time to change it. If oil filters are like most filters, when they reach capacity they can load up to the point of leaching trapped dirt back into the oil supply (at least some). The 2nd filter would catch that. It would almost be like having a brand new filter on all the time.
Now, contrast that to this pea-size z oil filter . . .
11-02-2004 | 09:09 PM
#25
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From: Another dimension
Kumacho, basically it seems to me like oil filtration - such a crucial thing - might be the ONE link in the chain where more IS better! IF done the right way . . . .
(Like you said, not so w/ oil additives!)
(Like you said, not so w/ oil additives!)
11-02-2004 | 09:14 PM
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From: Another dimension
[/B]f the Amsoil had the API donut on the bottles, I'd probably just stick with it. But since it doesn't, and my luck is so notorious, maybe I ought to play it safe and bail on the Amsoil.
[B]This time around, that is . . .
[B]This time around, that is . . .
11-02-2004 | 10:11 PM
#29
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From: Arlington Washington
Originally posted by Shamblin
Kumacho, basically it seems to me like oil filtration - such a crucial thing - might be the ONE link in the chain where more IS better! IF done the right way . . . .
(Like you said, not so w/ oil additives!)
Kumacho, basically it seems to me like oil filtration - such a crucial thing - might be the ONE link in the chain where more IS better! IF done the right way . . . .
(Like you said, not so w/ oil additives!)
11-02-2004 | 10:20 PM
#30
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From: Another dimension
Originally posted by Kumacho
It can't hurt and it will add to the filtration. Your filter will have more longevity and it should add oil capacity (not much). Still, change your filter every 3,000 and don't let the added lifespan give you a sense that going a bit longer is okay.
It can't hurt and it will add to the filtration. Your filter will have more longevity and it should add oil capacity (not much). Still, change your filter every 3,000 and don't let the added lifespan give you a sense that going a bit longer is okay.
11-03-2004 | 09:54 AM
#31
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From: NJ
Originally posted by Kumacho
A few things on this subject:
Oils will not break down at any of the normal operating tempratures you will find in a street engine. Even racing engines see very little breakage caused by oil failure. The weak link in engine lubrication is actually the oil filter.
.......
This is because at start up there is very little oil on some surfaces of the engine. No matter whether you use synthetic or dino oil, this still holds true. The biggest problem area for lack of lubrication at start up is the rings themselves. Lubrication for the rings and thus the cylinder walls come from small holes under the rings in the ring grooves. Oil is forced through those holes and provides a small film of oil between the rings and the cylinder. It takes quite a bit of time before enough oil can be pushed through these oil paths to properly lubricate the rings and cylinder.
A few things on this subject:
Oils will not break down at any of the normal operating tempratures you will find in a street engine. Even racing engines see very little breakage caused by oil failure. The weak link in engine lubrication is actually the oil filter.
.......
This is because at start up there is very little oil on some surfaces of the engine. No matter whether you use synthetic or dino oil, this still holds true. The biggest problem area for lack of lubrication at start up is the rings themselves. Lubrication for the rings and thus the cylinder walls come from small holes under the rings in the ring grooves. Oil is forced through those holes and provides a small film of oil between the rings and the cylinder. It takes quite a bit of time before enough oil can be pushed through these oil paths to properly lubricate the rings and cylinder.
It always surprises me how many people so blindly believe and "misread" the promises on the back of the bottle.
11-03-2004 | 10:50 AM
#32
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From: Another dimension
Originally posted by DmitryZ
This is one of the best posts I've seen on this board! I always notice that a lot of people have major misconceptions about synthetic oil and I appreciate that you took your time to really explain some of the issues involved - good job.
It always surprises me how many people so blindly believe and "misread" the promises on the back of the bottle.
This is one of the best posts I've seen on this board! I always notice that a lot of people have major misconceptions about synthetic oil and I appreciate that you took your time to really explain some of the issues involved - good job.
It always surprises me how many people so blindly believe and "misread" the promises on the back of the bottle.
Nor do I think that what I did by putting in Amsoil qualifies for "blindly believe and misread" either, for that implies that I ran out and grabbed something off the shelf and put it in without any forethought or research whatsoever; hardly true. Amsoil was hardly born yesterday, as you seem to think I was, and for every horror story you've got thousands who swear by it.
If I had rushed to buy the first bottle of "Motor Up" which just came out not long ago and has no track record or anything, maybe. But besides Amsoil, zMax has been out there for half a century now, and claimed FAA approval and well known endorsements, yet is just now being (finally) scrutinized by the fed's. So the fed's are about 50 years late doing their job . . . flame them, not me.
Your statement may have turned out to be conveniently true for oil, but what about the filter? It's a Mobil 1, not a Nissan. Did Kumacho and I "blindly believe and misread" the promises on the back of the filter box too in your opinion?
You know, it's always easy to jump in at the end of a conversation after the votes are all in and say "Yeah, I knew that,
you D.A. . . ."
At least I agree with you on one thing: Great post by Kumacho on dino vs. syn's.
11-03-2004 | 04:19 PM
#33
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From: NJ
Originally posted by Shamblin
Not sure what the "major misconception" is that you're referring to here. He said basically that synthetics may be necessary in extremely high hp dragsters and such, but that they are overkill for street and mild racing applications. Maybe slight overkill is considered a "major misconception" in your book, i dunno . . .
Nor do I think that what I did by putting in Amsoil qualifies for "blindly believe and misread" either, for that implies that I ran out and grabbed something off the shelf and put it in without any forethought or research whatsoever; hardly true. Amsoil was hardly born yesterday, as you seem to think I was, and for every horror story you've got thousands who swear by it.
If I had rushed to buy the first bottle of "Motor Up" which just came out not long ago and has no track record or anything, maybe. But besides Amsoil, zMax has been out there for half a century now, and claimed FAA approval and well known endorsements, yet is just now being (finally) scrutinized by the fed's. So the fed's are about 50 years late doing their job . . . flame them, not me.
Your statement may have turned out to be conveniently true for oil, but what about the filter? It's a Mobil 1, not a Nissan. Did Kumacho and I "blindly believe and misread" the promises on the back of the filter box too in your opinion?
You know, it's always easy to jump in at the end of a conversation after the votes are all in and say "Yeah, I knew that,
you D.A. . . ."
At least I agree with you on one thing: Great post by Kumacho on dino vs. syn's.
Not sure what the "major misconception" is that you're referring to here. He said basically that synthetics may be necessary in extremely high hp dragsters and such, but that they are overkill for street and mild racing applications. Maybe slight overkill is considered a "major misconception" in your book, i dunno . . .
Nor do I think that what I did by putting in Amsoil qualifies for "blindly believe and misread" either, for that implies that I ran out and grabbed something off the shelf and put it in without any forethought or research whatsoever; hardly true. Amsoil was hardly born yesterday, as you seem to think I was, and for every horror story you've got thousands who swear by it.
If I had rushed to buy the first bottle of "Motor Up" which just came out not long ago and has no track record or anything, maybe. But besides Amsoil, zMax has been out there for half a century now, and claimed FAA approval and well known endorsements, yet is just now being (finally) scrutinized by the fed's. So the fed's are about 50 years late doing their job . . . flame them, not me.
Your statement may have turned out to be conveniently true for oil, but what about the filter? It's a Mobil 1, not a Nissan. Did Kumacho and I "blindly believe and misread" the promises on the back of the filter box too in your opinion?
You know, it's always easy to jump in at the end of a conversation after the votes are all in and say "Yeah, I knew that,
you D.A. . . ."
At least I agree with you on one thing: Great post by Kumacho on dino vs. syn's.
I am sorry that you completely misinterpreted my post. I wasn’t talking about you or the merits or downfalls of amsoil or zMax.
I was talking about Kumachos first post because I though it was well written and addressed a lot of common misconceptions that lots of OTHER people have about using syntetic and regular oils.
So kudos to Kumancho for a great post.
But since you already flamed me for nothing I figure I need to earn it…
Here is a good example of a misconception:
The person below assumed that because his oil turned black after 3k miles, it was dirty and he needed to switch to synthetics. Dino oil is supposed to turn black. If you ever see dino oil that is clean after 3k miles – you got a big problem.
“AMSOIL Synthetic Lubricants are designed and engineered for extended drain interval service. The color the AMSOIL on your dipstick (or any oil for that matter) has absolutely no bearing on whether or not the oil is suitable for continued use or if it should be drained and replaced. Use the recommended change intervals for both the oil and engine oil filters as specified by AMSOIL.
It is a common misconception that an oil's color is an indication of how dirty it is. This is absolutely NOT TRUE. The color of an oil does not have any bearing on its lubrication ability. Most oil and especially diesel engine oil will turn black in the first few hours of operation due to contaminates generated by the combustion process and soot particles.”
For the whole article:
http://www.performanceoiltechnology....ationlevel.htm
But of course you already knew this becasue "you weren't born yesterday"
Originally posted by Shamblin
Ah . . . the old "size doesn't matter" thing again, eh? Still seems like it would be better to build in extra dirt-holding capacity so that instead of being choked out at 3k miles, it would still be flowing & filtering well at 3k, leaving a little wiggle room on that. The dino oil I was using turns sorta black after 3k miles or so, which made me look at synthetics but you are saying here (best I can tell) that this is really the filter's fault, and the filter's trapping capacity has been exceeded at this point (note that previously I was using the stock filter, which could've been the culprit if it's as cheaply made as I hear it is.)
Ah . . . the old "size doesn't matter" thing again, eh? Still seems like it would be better to build in extra dirt-holding capacity so that instead of being choked out at 3k miles, it would still be flowing & filtering well at 3k, leaving a little wiggle room on that. The dino oil I was using turns sorta black after 3k miles or so, which made me look at synthetics but you are saying here (best I can tell) that this is really the filter's fault, and the filter's trapping capacity has been exceeded at this point (note that previously I was using the stock filter, which could've been the culprit if it's as cheaply made as I hear it is.)
Last edited by DmitryZ; 11-03-2004 at 04:24 PM.
11-06-2004 | 07:33 PM
#34
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From: Another dimension
Originally posted by DmitryZ
I am sorry that you completely misinterpreted my post. I wasn’t talking about you or the merits or downfalls of amsoil or zMax.
I was talking about Kumachos first post because I though it was well written and addressed a lot of common misconceptions that lots of OTHER people have about using syntetic and regular oils.
So kudos to Kumancho for a great post.
Thanks for clarifying that, DmitryZ! You didn't specify (until now).
But since you already flamed me for nothing I figure I need to earn it…
Well, three little words would've prevented that (like "not you, shamblin").
Of course, i suppose I could have preceeded my comments with a "If you're talking about me, DmitryZ, then . . ."
Here is a good example of a misconception:
The person below assumed that because his oil turned black after 3k miles, it was dirty and he needed to switch to synthetics. Dino oil is supposed to turn black. If you ever see dino oil that is clean after 3k miles – you got a big problem.
“AMSOIL Synthetic Lubricants are designed and engineered for extended drain interval service. The color the AMSOIL on your dipstick (or any oil for that matter) has absolutely no bearing on whether or not the oil is suitable for continued use or if it should be drained and replaced. Use the recommended change intervals for both the oil and engine oil filters as specified by AMSOIL.
It is a common misconception that an oil's color is an indication of how dirty it is. This is absolutely NOT TRUE. The color of an oil does not have any bearing on its lubrication ability. Most oil and especially diesel engine oil will turn black in the first few hours of operation due to contaminates generated by the combustion process and soot particles.”
For the whole article:
http://www.performanceoiltechnology....ationlevel.htm
But of course you already knew this becasue "you weren't born yesterday"
I am sorry that you completely misinterpreted my post. I wasn’t talking about you or the merits or downfalls of amsoil or zMax.
I was talking about Kumachos first post because I though it was well written and addressed a lot of common misconceptions that lots of OTHER people have about using syntetic and regular oils.
So kudos to Kumancho for a great post.
Thanks for clarifying that, DmitryZ! You didn't specify (until now).
But since you already flamed me for nothing I figure I need to earn it…
Well, three little words would've prevented that (like "not you, shamblin").
Of course, i suppose I could have preceeded my comments with a "If you're talking about me, DmitryZ, then . . ."
Here is a good example of a misconception:
The person below assumed that because his oil turned black after 3k miles, it was dirty and he needed to switch to synthetics. Dino oil is supposed to turn black. If you ever see dino oil that is clean after 3k miles – you got a big problem.
“AMSOIL Synthetic Lubricants are designed and engineered for extended drain interval service. The color the AMSOIL on your dipstick (or any oil for that matter) has absolutely no bearing on whether or not the oil is suitable for continued use or if it should be drained and replaced. Use the recommended change intervals for both the oil and engine oil filters as specified by AMSOIL.
It is a common misconception that an oil's color is an indication of how dirty it is. This is absolutely NOT TRUE. The color of an oil does not have any bearing on its lubrication ability. Most oil and especially diesel engine oil will turn black in the first few hours of operation due to contaminates generated by the combustion process and soot particles.”
For the whole article:
http://www.performanceoiltechnology....ationlevel.htm
But of course you already knew this becasue "you weren't born yesterday"
a) No I wasn't born yesterday (but I never claimed to know everything about everything; anyone who does is an idiot).
b) I've always been led to believe that how black the oil is, is at least some indication of it being time to change. And so logic would dictate. I mean, when my UNDERWEAR gets black, it's sure time to change IT! I know, I know . . . underwear and oil are two different things . . .
So when oil suffers from viscosity &/or thermal breakdown, it DOESN'T turn black, huh? Interesting . . . What color does it turn then?
I just flushed all the brand new Amsoil motor & trans. oil out and put dino back in, due to a) the Amsoil horror stories I've heard (not just Kumacho's), and b) Nissan requires API certification to comply with warranty*, so excuse me for laughing at the irony of being led right back to Amsoil's own statements and having them presented as the gospel of the oil industry.
(*there is no API "donut" on the Amsoil bottle because while it claims to meet such requirements, it has not actually been certified by API.)
I do find it at least a bit ironic the claim of
"contaminates generated by the combustion process” as NOT being considered oil pollution. The very meaning of the word "contaminates" would indicate otherwise. But hey, what do i know . . .
11-06-2004 | 08:09 PM
#36
So after all this, is it ok for me to use Mobil 1 oil, Mobile 1 filter, and Redline in the tranny?
What's the best weight oil for a no track use, mildly modded Z car in Houston, TX?
What's the best weight oil for a no track use, mildly modded Z car in Houston, TX?
11-06-2004 | 09:57 PM
#37
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From: Another dimension
Originally posted by xxlbeerZ
So after all this, is it ok for me to use Mobil 1 oil, Mobile 1 filter, and Redline in the tranny?
I think it's safe to say that the Mobil 1 filter is one of the best, and lots better than stock. While Mobil 1 "oil" is synthetic, and subject to the previous discussion, at least it is actually certified by API and has the donut on the bottle.
Someone suggested earlier (Kumacho?) that Redline was preferred by more independent racing teams than any other additive.
What's the best weight oil for a no track use, mildly modded Z car in Houston, TX?
So after all this, is it ok for me to use Mobil 1 oil, Mobile 1 filter, and Redline in the tranny?
I think it's safe to say that the Mobil 1 filter is one of the best, and lots better than stock. While Mobil 1 "oil" is synthetic, and subject to the previous discussion, at least it is actually certified by API and has the donut on the bottle.
Someone suggested earlier (Kumacho?) that Redline was preferred by more independent racing teams than any other additive.
What's the best weight oil for a no track use, mildly modded Z car in Houston, TX?
11-07-2004 | 03:58 PM
#39
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From: NJ
Originally posted by Shamblin
Well, let's see . . .
a) No I wasn't born yesterday (but I never claimed to know everything about everything; anyone who does is an idiot).
b) I've always been led to believe that how black the oil is, is at least some indication of it being time to change. And so logic would dictate. I mean, when my UNDERWEAR gets black, it's sure time to change IT! I know, I know . . . underwear and oil are two different things . . .
So when oil suffers from viscosity &/or thermal breakdown, it DOESN'T turn black, huh? Interesting . . . What color does it turn then?
I just flushed all the brand new Amsoil motor & trans. oil out and put dino back in, due to a) the Amsoil horror stories I've heard (not just Kumacho's), and b) Nissan requires API certification to comply with warranty*, so excuse me for laughing at the irony of being led right back to Amsoil's own statements and having them presented as the gospel of the oil industry.
(*there is no API "donut" on the Amsoil bottle because while it claims to meet such requirements, it has not actually been certified by API.)
I do find it at least a bit ironic the claim of
"contaminates generated by the combustion process” as NOT being considered oil pollution. The very meaning of the word "contaminates" would indicate otherwise. But hey, what do i know . . .
Well, let's see . . .
a) No I wasn't born yesterday (but I never claimed to know everything about everything; anyone who does is an idiot).
b) I've always been led to believe that how black the oil is, is at least some indication of it being time to change. And so logic would dictate. I mean, when my UNDERWEAR gets black, it's sure time to change IT! I know, I know . . . underwear and oil are two different things . . .
So when oil suffers from viscosity &/or thermal breakdown, it DOESN'T turn black, huh? Interesting . . . What color does it turn then?
I just flushed all the brand new Amsoil motor & trans. oil out and put dino back in, due to a) the Amsoil horror stories I've heard (not just Kumacho's), and b) Nissan requires API certification to comply with warranty*, so excuse me for laughing at the irony of being led right back to Amsoil's own statements and having them presented as the gospel of the oil industry.
(*there is no API "donut" on the Amsoil bottle because while it claims to meet such requirements, it has not actually been certified by API.)
I do find it at least a bit ironic the claim of
"contaminates generated by the combustion process” as NOT being considered oil pollution. The very meaning of the word "contaminates" would indicate otherwise. But hey, what do i know . . .
Its the state of the oil that really matters not the color. When oil has exceeded its ability to suspend dirt particles it turns to sludge which is what you really want to avoid.
For those of you interested in more info on this:
http://www.nordicgroup.us/oil.htm (btw they have interesting stuff on Amsoil and API certification)
other than that its all good
peace
Last edited by DmitryZ; 11-07-2004 at 04:01 PM.
11-08-2004 | 09:39 AM
#40
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From: Another dimension
Originally posted by DmitryZ
umm... I wouldn't use that underwear analogy too often
Itza joke son, itza joke . . .
Its the state of the oil that really matters not the color. When oil has exceeded its ability to suspend dirt particles it turns to sludge which is what you really want to avoid.
For those of you interested in more info on this:
http://www.nordicgroup.us/oil.htm (btw they have interesting stuff on Amsoil and API certification)
other than that its all good
peace
umm... I wouldn't use that underwear analogy too often
Itza joke son, itza joke . . .
Its the state of the oil that really matters not the color. When oil has exceeded its ability to suspend dirt particles it turns to sludge which is what you really want to avoid.
For those of you interested in more info on this:
http://www.nordicgroup.us/oil.htm (btw they have interesting stuff on Amsoil and API certification)
other than that its all good
peace
Couple that with Kumacho's post, and we've covered just about everything except thermal/viscosity breakdown. Anybody got any good links on that subject?