NA Build: Kacz07's 2006 SS 350z RevUP
lol.....your doing all this work Kacz, and you haven't even driven the Z to test things out and see if its a good ride to begin with. I don't care what the "dyno" shows. Or how it rides in doors.
Drive the damn Z before you change everything out and waste your $. Just seems as if your buying everything under the sun with out fully road testing the car. Might be fast and smooth on a dyno, but when your riden down the road could be POS!
Remember, we have that road testing phase we must accomplish.....White Z will see if your Z is worthy.
Drive the damn Z before you change everything out and waste your $. Just seems as if your buying everything under the sun with out fully road testing the car. Might be fast and smooth on a dyno, but when your riden down the road could be POS!
Remember, we have that road testing phase we must accomplish.....White Z will see if your Z is worthy.
Last edited by Dr. Venture; Oct 15, 2010 at 04:44 AM.
A little update:
Shortly after getting my car on the road, it threw a check engine light: P2A03: O2 Sensor Bank 2- sensor 1, an increasingly common problem for the 06-08 Zs. My first thoughts were that of an exhaust leak or possibly sensor failure.
I let Vince know and he told me to bring the car by to take a look. The guys cleared, the code, swapped the O2 sensors, and replaced the battery, which had grown a little weak from sitting around so long. A few cold starts had a rough turnover, so I figured I'd replace it since it was old, regardless.
Driving home, the SES did not come back on, which I've read usually happens within the first 30-40 miles after the code is cleared. I'm thinking that the battery may have been related to the issue. Vince explained that the O2 sensor's range is in the millivolts, so any sort of interruption of power could throw everything askew.
After we cleared that hurdle, Vince threw the car on the dyno to see if we could open up the top end a little more. He played around with the cam timing and was able to squeeze out an additional 5-6whp and flattened out the powerband, too. So, the new numbers are 308whp/281wtq. All dyno runs were done more than 10 mins apart and I was consistently getting 305-308 whp, whereas August's dynos were just teetering around the 300 mark.
I'm still working on fabbing a larger vstack into the 06 airbox. Taking the airbox off and dyno-ing the car like that yielded less power, so there is something to say about the airbox's panel filter, which promotes laminar flow and better MAF readings, and the velocity stack, which we've read so much about.
Hopefully, I can get 1cockyz's ported TB or convert this thing to cable throttle and fit a vq45 TB on this guy. I am within a few hp of SG's build, when he was only using a 72mm ported TB w/ 3" intake, cams (I think), and their long tube headers. Given that a few of the NA builds have headwork done, I'm not sure if there are any significant gains to be had with the headwork, but we'll see what SG's results yield.
What's most interesting about the dyno sheet is the 6300rpm stick point. SG's and Jmccarty's, who both used raced gas (from my understanding, not sure what Z1 used) are able to keep the power up and peak or hold after that point. Headers? Headwork? Throttle body? Race gas?
Anyone one know the physics behind that? Typically, how does race gas modulate powerband?
Without further ado, the dynos:
8/10 vs. 10/26/10
My build vs. 06 350z w/ all bolt-ons:
As you can see, I'm making a full 40whp more at the peak, so built motors w/ cams and other internals DO make significant power over bolt-ons, but it comes at a cost. I was also able to take a look at another rev-up sporting a Stillen supercharger making 33?/28? torque, but a much broader powerband.
Once again, the RT Tuning crew came through in the clutch! Was able to see a few other Zs while I was there. One with a JWT clutch/flywheel isntall. Anyone following?
Shortly after getting my car on the road, it threw a check engine light: P2A03: O2 Sensor Bank 2- sensor 1, an increasingly common problem for the 06-08 Zs. My first thoughts were that of an exhaust leak or possibly sensor failure.
I let Vince know and he told me to bring the car by to take a look. The guys cleared, the code, swapped the O2 sensors, and replaced the battery, which had grown a little weak from sitting around so long. A few cold starts had a rough turnover, so I figured I'd replace it since it was old, regardless.
Driving home, the SES did not come back on, which I've read usually happens within the first 30-40 miles after the code is cleared. I'm thinking that the battery may have been related to the issue. Vince explained that the O2 sensor's range is in the millivolts, so any sort of interruption of power could throw everything askew.
After we cleared that hurdle, Vince threw the car on the dyno to see if we could open up the top end a little more. He played around with the cam timing and was able to squeeze out an additional 5-6whp and flattened out the powerband, too. So, the new numbers are 308whp/281wtq. All dyno runs were done more than 10 mins apart and I was consistently getting 305-308 whp, whereas August's dynos were just teetering around the 300 mark.
I'm still working on fabbing a larger vstack into the 06 airbox. Taking the airbox off and dyno-ing the car like that yielded less power, so there is something to say about the airbox's panel filter, which promotes laminar flow and better MAF readings, and the velocity stack, which we've read so much about.
Hopefully, I can get 1cockyz's ported TB or convert this thing to cable throttle and fit a vq45 TB on this guy. I am within a few hp of SG's build, when he was only using a 72mm ported TB w/ 3" intake, cams (I think), and their long tube headers. Given that a few of the NA builds have headwork done, I'm not sure if there are any significant gains to be had with the headwork, but we'll see what SG's results yield.
What's most interesting about the dyno sheet is the 6300rpm stick point. SG's and Jmccarty's, who both used raced gas (from my understanding, not sure what Z1 used) are able to keep the power up and peak or hold after that point. Headers? Headwork? Throttle body? Race gas?
Anyone one know the physics behind that? Typically, how does race gas modulate powerband?
Without further ado, the dynos:
8/10 vs. 10/26/10
My build vs. 06 350z w/ all bolt-ons:
As you can see, I'm making a full 40whp more at the peak, so built motors w/ cams and other internals DO make significant power over bolt-ons, but it comes at a cost. I was also able to take a look at another rev-up sporting a Stillen supercharger making 33?/28? torque, but a much broader powerband.
Once again, the RT Tuning crew came through in the clutch! Was able to see a few other Zs while I was there. One with a JWT clutch/flywheel isntall. Anyone following?
Last edited by kacz07; Oct 27, 2010 at 10:14 PM.
Hey Kacz07 what intake manifold are you running now and what do the A/F number say at and after 6,000? My guess is that the lack of top end has something to do with the engine getting choked, maybe little air or too little fuel available to sustain additional power. It could also be poor execution on the headwork, did you get CFM tests done? There's also the possibility the cams, headwork and headers just don't get along, but two of the three components are a proven commodity. The cams really are just coming into their own at 6,000 so I don't see why the engine would fall on its face. Notice how the stock block car's dyno holds a little better on top, I would think your's would be a little better if not the same.
Last edited by Zazz93; Oct 27, 2010 at 07:21 PM.
Zazz, I think the intake is the chokepoint after 6k. Adam at Z1 wrote about the extensive porting and filling done to his manifold, which could be significant to his power to redline. What do your dynos look like?
It is also possible that the headers are clogged as well. Given Megan's mixed reputation, I am going to take a guess and say that they were not researched and developed on many different setups, especially a custom NA build. Why should they allow for power past 6500rpm if they were never designed that way? Those headers yielded something like 20 extra lb/ft of torque on a stock engine in a few different bolt on setups dyno'd at RT, so they're tuned to a certain degree.
Because I asked for a few different items, such as larger valves, etc, the shop may have thought I was going FI, but I did request high compression pistons, too. I can inquire again and see if it gets me anywhere. Would be nice to see Kyle chime in.
I've asked Kyle @ IPP about the headwork and he said he could provide me with approximate number, but I inquired twice about that with no response. There are a couple of reputable tuners that have touted the shop's ability to put together an engine, so that helps me rest somewhat assured of the quality work.
Some of the choices, such as oversized valves, are included in Cosworth's short block setup. That being said, it seems Cosworth is the only company convinced that their manifold makes power NA, although their cams could be well designed for the headwork and manifold. That is a completely unproven and expensive setup.
My intake is the Stock airbox w/ AFE panel filter>Z1 3" MAF>Samco induction hose>OEM TB>MD 5/16th spacer and MREV2 lower plenum. Still working on get the Blox vstack or 1cockyz's ported vstack into an 06 airbox or JWT popcharger filter.
What do your dynos look like?
It is also possible that the headers are clogged as well. Given Megan's mixed reputation, I am going to take a guess and say that they were not researched and developed on many different setups, especially a custom NA build. Why should they allow for power past 6500rpm if they were never designed that way? Those headers yielded something like 20 extra lb/ft of torque on a stock engine in a few different bolt on setups dyno'd at RT, so they're tuned to a certain degree.
Because I asked for a few different items, such as larger valves, etc, the shop may have thought I was going FI, but I did request high compression pistons, too. I can inquire again and see if it gets me anywhere. Would be nice to see Kyle chime in.
I've asked Kyle @ IPP about the headwork and he said he could provide me with approximate number, but I inquired twice about that with no response. There are a couple of reputable tuners that have touted the shop's ability to put together an engine, so that helps me rest somewhat assured of the quality work.
Some of the choices, such as oversized valves, are included in Cosworth's short block setup. That being said, it seems Cosworth is the only company convinced that their manifold makes power NA, although their cams could be well designed for the headwork and manifold. That is a completely unproven and expensive setup.
My intake is the Stock airbox w/ AFE panel filter>Z1 3" MAF>Samco induction hose>OEM TB>MD 5/16th spacer and MREV2 lower plenum. Still working on get the Blox vstack or 1cockyz's ported vstack into an 06 airbox or JWT popcharger filter.
What do your dynos look like?
Last edited by kacz07; Oct 27, 2010 at 09:47 PM.
I haven't got a new tune quite yet, found one loose intake valve clearence at .018 (don't ask me how I missed it) and it ticks so I've been dreading the 12 or so hours to go back in and correct it. After that is done I'll be headed down to Technosquare for a tune. But the last dyno I did to make sure the engine was running ok (decent AFR and curve) showed it very top end heavy. The peak figure was 272 untuned on a DJ (at about 6000) with the power tappering off to about 265 at the 6600 stock redline. I'm using the Megan shorties so I wasn't expecting to see much over 290-300 after the tune. I'll see if I can find the sheet and post it later. I also planned on going to the basic rev-up collector and see if the losses in the mid range are acceptable.
The headwork is very conservative, the valvework is great but the port work was merely a match job. My machinst wasn't comfortable pushing into new territory. Also, looking at the Japanese tuning methods I didn't see a lot of those guys venturing too far from Nissan's designed shape (just the valve work). I'll probably start a thread in a couple of weeks and get into the details and results.
Jon,
This is what I think after reviewing your thread:
I believe our headers will shift the torque peak over, infact your peak torque may drop, but you should see an increase in HP.
I'm not sure what your cam timing is set to right now, but it looks like there is more torque to be found at the bottom end (3000rpm), that may just be the poor collectors from the Megan longtubes.
As far as the power falling off is concerned:
A) the non-revup plenum falls off a lot at that RPM
B) the stock throttle body and upper plenum is doing most of the restricting, you can hand port the upper plenum and have the throttle body ported to find a little bit more power, but nothing significant.
C) the headers, being long and too small, are likely not adding any scavenging effect beyond 6000rpm, so it's killing things further.
Let me dig up a dyno from when I was using a 5/16" spacer and just my headers. Remember that we are using an SAE corrected Dynapack, which typically reads a fair bit lower than SAE corrected Dynojet.
Ok here it is. You'll see that the top end doesn't fall off as much, but the curve is fairly similar, with the drop off starting both times at 6000rpm. I believe that is the stock lower intake plenum and stock upper/throttle body that we all share in common.
Gotta love NA tuning! We'll see how much of a difference the headers make, I am hopeful it will be substantial. We know it was on Gabe's car!
This is what I think after reviewing your thread:
I believe our headers will shift the torque peak over, infact your peak torque may drop, but you should see an increase in HP.
I'm not sure what your cam timing is set to right now, but it looks like there is more torque to be found at the bottom end (3000rpm), that may just be the poor collectors from the Megan longtubes.
As far as the power falling off is concerned:
A) the non-revup plenum falls off a lot at that RPM
B) the stock throttle body and upper plenum is doing most of the restricting, you can hand port the upper plenum and have the throttle body ported to find a little bit more power, but nothing significant.
C) the headers, being long and too small, are likely not adding any scavenging effect beyond 6000rpm, so it's killing things further.
Let me dig up a dyno from when I was using a 5/16" spacer and just my headers. Remember that we are using an SAE corrected Dynapack, which typically reads a fair bit lower than SAE corrected Dynojet.
Ok here it is. You'll see that the top end doesn't fall off as much, but the curve is fairly similar, with the drop off starting both times at 6000rpm. I believe that is the stock lower intake plenum and stock upper/throttle body that we all share in common.
Gotta love NA tuning! We'll see how much of a difference the headers make, I am hopeful it will be substantial. We know it was on Gabe's car!
To continue from the last post, this is the difference between the non revup lower plenum (MREV2) and the revup lower plenum. For 99% of people out there it makes sense to go with the non-revup, but since I'm running the engine to 8200rpm and spend most of my time over 6400rpm, the revup may be a little faster overall.
You can see how the characteristic of the torque to "knee" down at 6000rpm goes away with this lower manifold, it seems to have a similar knee at 6550rpm now. The torque/hp "bubble" at 5800rpm must be from some VE increase, becasue no fueling, ignition or cam timing changes would do anything about improving the power at 6250 where it appears to fall off (in reality it's just making more power at 5800rpm).
You can see how the characteristic of the torque to "knee" down at 6000rpm goes away with this lower manifold, it seems to have a similar knee at 6550rpm now. The torque/hp "bubble" at 5800rpm must be from some VE increase, becasue no fueling, ignition or cam timing changes would do anything about improving the power at 6250 where it appears to fall off (in reality it's just making more power at 5800rpm).
