anybody can point to any HPDE or any training in NY-PA area?

 

I don't know what you mean by HPDE, as Speedventures is HPDE, they are just a little more relaxed and actually provide timing so you can see your lap times, those are the only differences from other HPDE's I have been to or heard of. They still provide instruction if needed, and separate the groups by experience. I wish they would come back to Florida I prefer them over the others.

 

Really? Didn't realize this. I have been to a SV event and they do seem to be a bit more relaxed just by reading their websites. So there is a difference, just same people running the show?

 

Sorry I took as HPDE as just meaning High Performance Driver's Education not an organization, what I meant was that Speedventures is a form of HPDE and just run things a little different but are just like other HPDE clubs out there.

 

Rickdogg may be a bit confused... most clubs use the term HPDE - I don't think there is an organization called that. HPDE stand for High Performance Driver Education... some organizations interpret this differently than others. I'm a little uncomfortable with where this thread might end up, being an organizer for one of the clubs that some may consider, "less" relaxed... but we'll see what happens I guess.

There are many, many clubs running track events out there, and everyone is different. Some clubs are 'for profit', some are 'not for profit', some (like ours) are for 'just enough profit to pay the next track's deposit and save up for an AMB timing system' ... some clubs are run at the national level (BMWCCA, PCA, SCCA, Audi[I think]), others are local clubs that may draw from a regional participant base.

The main point I'm getting at is that for as many different clubs out there running track events, there are hundreds of differing opinions about them. Its up to the participant to try as many as he/she can and judge for him/her self.

 

I appreciate the info guys. I read the s2k racing forums from time to time and the consensus I received from reading over there is that they prefer events held by speedventures.net over HPDE events hosted by NASA

 

The only reason why I haven't tried Speedventures is because of the timing. I looked at my insurance policy regarding its exclusions, and it states that damage due to participation in any speed contest is exempt from coverage. For what it's worth, a sharp insurance rep can really make it tough for me if he saw my times posted online. Other than that, I would probably give them a try.

 

You have a choice whether to be timed or not I chose not to since it was my first time out anyways

 

Doesn't matter... it is still considered a timed event... whether your particular car is timed or not

 

Well one of the organizers, he posts here as well, fluxen, is an S2000 guy so that may be why they seem to gravitate to Speedventures, he has done some wild stuff with his, it is basically a stipped out S2000.

 

Really? Didn't Egbert Souse wreck his Z a few months back and his insurance covered it

 

I wasn't trying to imply that your insurance company automatically would not cover you, but IMHO it is a big gamble. There are certainly ways around the timing issue, like the previous post said - you'll need a good insurance insurance lawyer to battle the lawyers from the insurance company.

Here's another opinion of mine (and my club's) regarding timing: Whether an event is labeled as an HPDE or Open Track, when you throw timing into the mix it changes things. If people know they are being timed, subconsciously they will push harder - not necessarily a bad thing - but in the wrong combination, it will increase the risk of something catastophic. When you combine timing with relaxed passing rules, relaxed tech rules(i.e. self-tech), and throw them together in a run group setting where not everyone is being timed or cares about being timed, then its only a matter of... time before the red mist causes someone whos looking for that extra hundredth of a second to take a late pass or a pass in a turn if they think they can get away with it... or simply a pass without a point-by... which can lead to very serious accidents.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not naive, I know people time themselves at HPDEs all the time... but promoting it and encouraging it during regular run groups is ill-advised in my opinion. Thats why we offer a seperate time trial at our events for properly equipped cars (and drivers) who want to get that competitive rush without the dangers of trying to get the fastest lap times through traffic.

 

When I said they were relaxed I meant in their behaviour and attitude, they made it more fun than others I have been to. They still had run groups based on experience and passing rules, they just were not as **** as others about having an instructor with you for 2 days and such. In the 2 or 3 two day events I did with them not a single accident while at 3 other events with other "strict" clubs there have been a couple of rollovers and wall banging all of those without timing.

 

I am certainly not trying to single out any particular club or organization - and I know accidents are relatively rare - I'm glad they have a good record. Whomever the other group is with a couple roll-overs and wall banging, probably best to stay away LOL ... wall banging is different though - depends on the track for the most part. We run at VIR, CMP, and Roebling Road... plenty of run-off space when needed. We're running North Carolina Motor Speedway this year, which obviously has some walls to take into account, so we'll see how we handle that.

A relaxed attitude and behaviour is also a perception... my guess (hope) is that behind the scenes, they take great care in safety issues while keeping things transparent to the 'good guys' on track. I think we do a good job of this at our events, and I would hope if we dont, that people would tell us. Every driver gets an event feedback form for our events where issues like this can be brought to our attention.

As far as the instructor thing... of course that is going to vary from club to club. Our policy is this: You will have an instructor as long as you need or want one. Catch is... its mostly up to the instructor. Advanced students at our events get instructors, but most of them get signed off after the 1st or second session - but just as many keep their instructor to learn! Intermdiate students generally keep an instructor through Saturday, but are signed off for Sunday, novice/beginner students will have an instructor most of the weekend, but usually get signed off for the afternoon Sunday sessions. We have a good core group of instructors, whom we trust to make good decisions in this regard - they are in the cars, they have an objective view of things. Even advanced, experienced drivers, who have never driven our events before, will get an instructor... mainly as a check-ride to make sure they have our passing rules and protocol down.

All I'm saying, to those asking for opinions or preferences, is try us all and make your own decisions.

 

Rickdogg:
I will be running with Speedventures on April 3d at Sears Point Infineon, any chance you will be up there for that event?
To date I have run my G35 in 8 events with Speedventures over the past year or so (Laguna Seca 2x, Buttonwillow 2x, California Speedway 2x, Sears Point 1x and Big Willow 1x). There have been OTE by some cars that have resulted in some bent metal, (almost always driver error, one blown tire), and a couple of car fires from mechanical failures (separated exhaust, overheated turbo, ruptured fuel line), but no injuries at the events I attended, and not to my knowledge any door banging in any of the classes/programs that I was at. Of course they run quite a large number of events and I can only speak to the ones that I have attended. However, from what I have seen, they run a very professional program.
It is "relaxed" in the sense that they do not grab you like a school child and harangue the attendees, they treat them like adults. But it is clearly serious business. What I have enjoyed about the program is that there are a large number of drivers who are repeaters, so there is a cadre of drivers that know each other, and are thus known to each other. This helps with the safety. Anybody that is out of order in conduct or propriety is quickly reported and dealt with. I have seen a couple of newcomers who "didn't get it" as to manners and they didn't last.
There are lots of instructors. Novice group drivers always get instructors, and always if they have never driven a particular track before. I really looked forward to that part of the experience and always wanted one. However, once you advance to intermediate, and have driven the track before, the choice to have an instructor is yours.
Passing rules are very clear in each group. Only with point by in Novice Group, and only in certain designated straights that give plenty of room for everyone to exercise judgment, make a move, and carry it through. Only with point by in Intermediate Group as well. Here there will be certain areas that are nixed as passing areas for safety, but otherwise you can pass. It may be that it is still restricted to only straights, or some corners will be permitted, it all depends on the specific track, and this is carefully explained at the driver meeting each time. Depending on the track and the number of drivers, the intermediate group may be divided into two groups, a regular intermediate and an advanced intermediate. In that case the passing rules are sometimes different between them as well, with stricter rules on the regular intermediate. The advanced group drivers pass anytime anywhere, and while point by is encouraged it is not required. That is for hot cars and hot drivers, and not surprisingly is where a lot of the real devotees of SV happen to run, including most of the instructors most of the time.
The level of interest, skill and enthusiasm varies widely among people. By dividing the groups by skills, and limiting the number of cars, it helps maintain a good flow of traffic and promotes safety. The cars are launched seriatim with a spacing of several seconds...which when you are relatively evenly matched is a lot of space. Spreads of performance in a group for lap times are typically around ten seconds for the top three quarters of the drivers in both the advanced and intermediate groups, with many of them running lap time spreads of less than three seconds. So while you will have passing opportunities, and being passed experiences, you can very definitely spend your 25 minutes on the track doing your ten or eleven laps without ever laying your eyes on more than half the cars out there with you. Fifteen or even twenty cars spread out over 2.5 to 3 miles is pretty decent breathing room. And if you feel there is too much traffic you just pull in to the hot pit and get restarted in some open space. The novice group is a bit different in that relative skills regard, because you have some first timers, and some folks doing their fourth or fifth event, or perhaps even more if they have never driven the track before. The spread in skills and speeds can be a bit more, perhaps 25 or even thirty seconds in lap times, and so you have to be careful. Bottom line here, ten seconds a lap is a LOT as far as relative speed. When you move up, from group to group, you really notice it. The guys and gals in the advanced groups claw and scratch to gain tenths of a second per lap. The guys and gals in the intermediate group claw and scratch to gain a second here or there as they work on skills. The guys and gals in the novice group claw and scratch to keep it on the asphalt, and typically are not real concerned with times at all, and can improve their lap times by as much as five seconds a session as they slowly and cautiously feel their way along with their instructors. (Frankly, I would never have gone as fast as I did in the novice group without the instructor directing me to go faster in certain sections and situations....)
That is the best thumbnail I can give you about the lads at SV and how they run. Drive safe and have fun.