tmak26b

I never doubted his (or anyone's specific) ability, I was simply referring to trailbraking in general. Trailbraking is not for everybody, some people can do it and some people can't. I found it much safer to do it on Rs because of their superior grip, which allows for more margin of error.

I instructed with different small clubs at driving schools here in the NE, never had an accidents nor offs with myself or the student. A lap record here and there with a stock 350z too.

Eagle1

iTrader: (2)

I think we are all in agreement that trail braking is not for newbies. It really isn't for someone that has not had some track school and a good number of track days. Not sure if that would be 15 or 20 or 25, it really depends on the individual, but enough that he/she was beyond the point of understanding and implementing on their own the ability to pick and drive the line, judge their braking point, turn in point, apex, track out point well, can heel/toe reasonably consistently, and then was at the point where car control/recovery was what they were ready to be working on so that they could be deliberately loading and unloading the springs from side to side, pitching it front to back, and generally starting to steer with their feet. Then some real focus on a skid pad before getting on the circuit and playing with it, and inducing yaw with both pedals, and "flicking" it into rotation with just a little touch of wheel motion. Telling a newbie or even intermediate to trail the brake into a corner, without some prep, is definitely going to result in some spins and we don't want those on the track, especially with others boring down on them from behind. It just raises the odds of an unpleasant and unsafe incident.
However......once they can begin to control the car, and trail braking is but one tool in the chest, they can really enjoy a whole new level of driving, and be much faster too.

mhoward1

I think the basic arguement here is not the trailbraking, but the old which type of tire is better to learn on.

dnguyent

iTrader: (5)

OOoooh ooohh ohhh, I know the answer to that one! STREET tires!!!!

In order to learn how to trail brake, one must be comfortable with sliding a car. With street tires, it allows me to slide a car at slower speeds, and work up to sliding the car at higher speeds, which is where an R-comp comes in. Start with streets, get comfortable and good at trail braking with streets, then move onto r-comps when you are adept with the limits of a street tire.

Recommending r-comps to learn how to trail brake is the same as recommending a novice track driver to start with r-comps to learn how his/her car handles. Mhoward1 makes a good point here.

first350

iTrader: (24)

agreed. plus street tires have a larger transistion from grip to slide than R-comps, so it's easier to feel the onset of a slide coming. I've had times where my R-comps went from grip to a slide w/out warning (not saying that there was warning...I just didn't feel it coming ...I'm just in my 2nd yr of using R-comps )...that's when things get scary.

betamotorsports

iTrader: (1)

On every race track there are a couple slow corners where trail braking is of some help. Its of less value in medium speed corners and a slow technique in fast corners. When I instruct I will help the student with the concept of trail braking in the slow corners IF they demonstrate a modicum of braking awareness - getting off the brakes gently. Personally, I tend to gently trail brake more often then not and I left foot brake if a downshift isn't required for the turn (WSIR turn 1 for example).

Eagle1

iTrader: (2)

Very good advice. By definition, when the rear is rotating you are not putting down max power, because the car is slipping. In a slow corner the lost moment of throttle maintenance is more than compensated for by getting the nose yawed around to allow you to then get on throttle acceleration earlier, if you settle the rotation and hook up the rear to take advantage of it, and thus have much faster corner exit speed than if you don't do it. Really an extension of the "slow in, fast out" concept, and changing the geometry of the turn to your advantage. You can in some instances convert a double apex turn to a single apex, etc. But it is not to your advantage in every turn on a circuit, indeed most turns benefit from having you putting down power as much as possible. Trail braking in a fast turn is going to usually slow you down, and it is a LOT harder to catch and control a back end slide at 120mph than it is at 65mph........not to mention risky to machine and driver if you fail to do so. Medium speed turns.......it just depends, but I would go with John and say that more often than not you are better not trail braking. Exceptions would be compound turns where to set up for the optimum approach on the second segment you sacrifice the first and change its geometry with the technique.

Have fun, be safe, and if you are thinking about using the technique, get some instruction and practice before you take it on the track.

tmak26b

As I said, I agree street tires are better tires to learn how to drive on overall. I just don't think they are good tires to trailbrake on because of their grip (or lack there of). A novice shouldn't be trailbraking anyway unless he has good car control anyway. When they are at the level of trailbraking consistantly, I don't think they are worried about "feel". Everything should come natural to the driver

Kolia

iTrader: (2)

He just won't give up won't he ?

tmak26b

Nope, I have my reasons and I believe I have the record to prove it.

first350

iTrader: (24)

good enough...seems like we've gotten to the point where we understand each other, it's just that we don't agree.

betamotorsports

iTrader: (1)

I agree with the first sentence and also agree with the second except that street tires do give lots of warning and are fairly benign in their breakaway characteristics. Given that most drivers learning a new technique are going to make mistakes, I would error more on the side of having a tire that's slow to slide and has a large recovery curve. But, trial braking with a tire at 80% grip helps with technique so the driver can make mistakes and not have to recover. But (again), a driver doesn't get the "feel" of at the limit trail braking (which is what they want to do consistently to be fast) until the tire is at 100% grip.

In the real world, this argument really doesn't matter. You learn with the tires that are on your car at the time of the "lesson." Often, the lesson comes as a surprise.

tmak26b

I think it has to do with the driver too. I have been with people who are fast from day 1 and I have also been with people who are still slow despite having 5+ years under their belt.

MSR350Z

As I read this thread I was looking for someone to give the recommondation to measure the temps accross the tires. That way you have an idea of the alignment and pressure.

Check the Longarce website for Pyrometers. I have found them, a helper and a sheet of paper and pencil as the best tools to sort all of this out.