It would be a no brainer if I could find the website link with tuning tips for every situation. Anyway, entering a 270 degree pivot after a tight slalom, I swung wide with the intention of finishing the turn close to the pivot cone. Instead, the car plowed when I got on the throttle to try and rotate. There was little opportunity to use lateral weight transfer. I have the following options to improve the car's ability to break loose the rear or get the front to stay planted:
1. loosen front swaybar
2. soften front dampers
3. tighten rear dampers

Would any of these options help? I'm thinking I should stiffen the rear dampers, but unsure about what else I could do. Otherwise the car performed great with -3 front camber, -1 rear camber, Konis all around, Cusco sways, and Kuhmo 710's (275's all around). If anyone knows the website I'm looking for, that would help too.

 

In general, getting on the throttle in a corner does two things that don't help turning -- first, accelerating takes weight off of the front tires, and second it adds to the forces on the front tires -- especially if they aren't straight. So, if you're already at the limit on the front tires, accelerating takes away grip AND adds to the force pushing the car straight.

 

Dab the brake at the apex and get back on it.

You could always slow down and get on the gas a bit later but without knowing exactly what the course looks like its going to be hard to give you a definate answer.

 

You *could* do that, but you need to be very careful about it, since you need to move the weight to the front tires without overloading them.

Your absolutely best bet is to keep in tight and reduce the distance traveled.

 

lift-throttle FTW. same effect as dabbing the brakes but not as severe. Ask a rally driver about it, that'll typically load the front tires pretty well as the weight moves forward.

 

Here's the thing... with the stock springs and dampers, the car used to be able to hold a tight turn. Yesterday, I got into the turn, made about 90 degrees of it, and the car started plowing. I tried to initiate oversteer to get through the other 180 degrees. Upon reflection, trying to spin my way out of an understeering situation was foolish.
I bought the shocks used. The rears are great. I am concerned that the fronts might need to be rebuilt (not rebounding enough), which might have been the cause of the understeer after initiating the turn. Then again, the situation worsened continuously after the third run, so the tires were overheating and I may be mistaking that for damper issues. I ended up 3rd OA and 5th PAX, so I shouldn't complain.
I think this was said turn on my best run...



Now that I see tire marks on the course, I guess other people had similar issues. I should have apexed later.

 

You have to work with the car and not force it to do something its not capable of. As you've figured out, the severe understeer was driver induced. These kinds of corners in a autocross cannot be driven fast. Although I'm not an autocross God (or Demigod, Hero, or ****-pot carrier), I tend to think of these kinds of corners as places to not screw up. Going too slow won't hurt you as much as going too fast.

 

The fronts give out alot faster than the rears. If whoever you bought them from drove on the street with the fronts set to full stiff they are probably done. Mine took a dump after about 15k. I'm having them rebuilt to DA but the rears are staying SA.

 

Slower would have been faster for sure. I will send the front struts to Truechoice, as I am pretty sure they need some work. They did have 15K on them, and I can run the stock fronts until they get back. Thanks guys.

 

FWIW, I don't think it's all in the car's suspension.

You ended up way too deep in the trun from what the pictures show but I can't say for sure since we don't know what the next 2 features looked like. You might have been setting up for the next turn. If that's a simple 180 then your front right tire should have been within 6 inches of the three cones heading towards the next feature.

My approach to these is that I set up a bit to the outside on the inbound, brake hard in a straight line and turn into the cones so I'm close while easing onto the gas as I straighten the wheel. Z's will step out on you so ease, not hammer the throttle, until pointed straight. The sites at a couple of the clubs I run with dictate a 180 to get a reasonable length course. The 180 manuver will not win an event but as Betamotorsports mentioned you can loose a lot of time.

 

I'd say, looking at the pictures, that you were still braking in pic 1 even though you were already turning pretty hard. When you came off the brakes, you actually took grip away from the front by transferring some of the weight to the rear.

Also, seeing how far away from the cones you are, you went in WAY too deep (you're a good 25-30 feet from the cones in a slow portion of the course!). All you did was add distance and a significant amount of time.

As far as shocks "failing" -- shocks do all of their work on transitions, springs and swaybars work on steady-state. If you leave your shocks on "full" all of the time (which I never do -- they're only turned up for dry events), then it's possible (I guess) to get more wear. I think that you'd really need to have a significant amount of movement to really induce problems, however. (IANARE, but two years and 28,000+ miles on my Koni Yellows, they were still in great shape and worked very well).

 

The seals for the adjustment screws tend to leak if left at full stiff while driving on the road. The STi guys seem to have this problem alot, or so I've heard. But they use inserts.


On a side note: I do agree that you weant in WAY to deep on that turn around. I just weant to an Evo Ph.2 school and we worked alot on transitions like this and given that your next gate is probably pretty close to that turn around or the line you need is close to the turn around SLOW DOWN and make the car turn before you start working on the suspension. Don't try to make a 15mph turn a 25mph turn.

 

You are not going to slide much with V710s

 

That's part of the problem, too. After running on street tires for two years, the new rubber presents a steep learning curve. No more mods for a while until I get the hang of it again. Everything happens much faster. It's hard staying ahead of the car, esp. managing the steering inputs! The results are encouraging though.

 

This may sound stupid because I don't autoX or watch the Fast and Furious, but can you use the e-brake for turns like those? Brake hard...downshift...trail the brake a bit...turn in...pull the e-brake...swing around...clutch out...gas gas gas... It it ends up adding time, at least you'll be popular with the crowd.

 

E-Brake? I use it rallycrossing a front wheel drive in the dirt. My daughter showed me that it helped make some turns in the mud but it made me wonder what she did to my cars she drove when she was growing up. Only totalled one that I know of.

 

Anytime you transition from static friction (traction) to dynamic friction (sliding) you are entering a chaotic system, so the same inputs may not produce the same results. I've seen people attempt e-brake turns, and generally they end up the wrong-way-around -- even if they are extremely experienced. Just watch WRC drivers to see that happen -- and they are considered the absolute experts in that driving style.

That being said, if first was far easier to get into from second, I might consider attempting a 2-1 downshift for that kind of turn -- if there was enough time before and after for the shifts. The downshift would require rev-matching for the downshift, and another 0.3 second "penalty" for the upshift again later. (I have documented evidence that a gear shift takes at least 0.3 seconds)

 

Do you like it loose in the *** or no? That's more important than asking other people what they like, and advice based on their driving styles.....

 

That just doesn't sound right
I spent a lot of time setting up my Neon, which had a very loose rear thanks to stiff springs and dampers. It was quick in pivot turns, but had a tendency to get loose in sweepers. I adjusted it to a more neutral setting, and promply started breaking things because the suspension was better than the rest of the car. That being said, I learned a lot about how much grip is possible with a good tune. I am biased towards a slightly loose rear, which I should be able to dial in. To address the other point mentioned, I did use a 2-1 downshift, attempeted to transfer the weight forward/sideways, and this would have worked if I was on street tires. BTW, the e-brake would probably be futile with huge, R compound tires. Weight transfer (throttle lift off of braking) works pretty good in most cases.

 

Interesting point you make about the r-comps being too grippy for e-brake....never thought of that.

Those pictures seem to show a turn that is nearly 180 degrees...not easy to rotate a car by the rear without modifying the angle in which to initiate rotation. Would it be possible to start the turn further to the right of the course, then point the car more towards the cone, while trail braking? I just find it easier to rotate the car if you take the blue line instead of the green line. The green line would most likely cause my abs to go on before I can unload enough weight from the rear while getting enough lateral momentum to actually swing the rear end around. I sometimes end up with ABS-aggravated push if my angle of attack doesn't impose enough lateral momentum. You might lose a little time by extending your entry, but you may be able to clip closer to the apex with a wider arc, and improve your exit speed.

It's pretty hard to tell what you can or can't do from those series of photos, so I apologize if this analysis is off base.