Paulie35th350z

iTrader: (5)

Back to the California Speedway for yet another fun Speedventures event 10/27/07 and 10/28/07



(This pic is taken by Ginobetterfly)

Track Map of California Speedway Infield Course Clockwise


FUN DAY!
10/27/07: California Speedway hosted a drag/street legal event on their dragway area. I saw some 350z’s there. I wonder how fast they were out there? Hmmm..

I like California Speedway because it is only 10mins away from my house. If there is a track event held out here, expect to see a yellow Z because I am definitely signed up.
Went to the track with 7 track days old NT01s (plus some miles going to Buttonwillow and Willow springs), near slick set up, and 3 track days old Porterfield R4s. I thought the NT01s would not grip at all… but sure enough they did! Wow!

against the angry RX8 owners

Weather: Highs of 79 degrees overcast/cloudy skies.
1st session was a blast. My Z brother Ed with a silver Z ran behind me. He had his new NT01s that day, 275s all around NICE! Passed all the cars including the evil Vettes.. 1:19 seconds. Noticed the track was configured a little differently from last time. The turns before the bus stop and after the first and second turns were wider. Good job to Speedventures as well for being on top of things. A corvette in front of me hit a cone on the track (probably in the hopes of slowing me down). The cone was stuck in the middle of the track, but then when I got back on the same area, it was gone. Corner workers definitely cleaned it (or maybe another car hit it and bounced it off the track, not sure)

Adam’s car, and my Z

Ed’s car

Other Ed’s car


2nd session was stressful for me. I felt my tires getting a lil slippery as I was putting more speeds on the turns. I spent half the time correcting the car.. no smooth driving at all. My buddy Steve (a corvette guy) told me after the session that my lines were great and looked faster. He had a stopwatch told me my time was yet again 1:19. He says he may have been off a second because he does have to reset the thing. I knew that I was slower due to me sliding around abit (not drift, but slide). My buddy Ed told me, to my surprise that I hit 1:17.8!!!!!!!!!!! WHAT?!?!?! I Cant believe it!!! I was very happy about that. Old tires, slip/slidin everywhere but with good lines, maybe braking less? Hmmm. I don’t know what happened. This session definitely got me thinking.


Bad news for the Celica.

R32 GTR taking it easy.

Porsche spec with a Skip Barber graduate driver

With the old tires, I went to American Tire and had the guys installed my new set of NT01s. This has caused me to miss my 3rd session. Started drizzling as well which was a bummer. Left the track a little moist which gave me an uncomfortable feeling: NT01s have ZERO grip in the wet. Yikes. We shall see……

4th session (for everyone else, 3rd for me really) I was stuck behind a silver Corvette. Tires were brand new full tread. More comfortable but I think I did not drive well with it. Driving was smooth, but I believe that I was not using the full potential of the tires. Time was 1:19 again.. This really got me thinking. Maybe I should have never put on the new NT01s and stayed with the old ones after the 2 track days… It seemed like a gamble to me though because I still had the Sunday event to deal with and I knew the tires would not last another day……. Oh well, I thought to myself.. my goal is to be fast and drive my car home. Which I did. Go home driving the car > breaking into the 1:16 and crash.


The Porsche was on Hoosiers, but was taking it easy (probably REALLY easy) since he was not catching up to me… if he did he would have left me behind like I was at a stop.

R32 GTR and Exige battle!!!!

Pic taken by another Z owner who was also at the track, his name is also Ed.

traffic!

This RX7 idled like this: BRRRAB BRRRAB BRRAB BRRAB BRRAB BRRRAB BRRRAB BRRAB!!!!

I did not go for another session since I was exhausted. Talked to most of the guys out at the track who were ALSO exhausted.. Learned about Data inquisition gadgets for track use… Maybe I should look into these. It gave some cool information about how fast the driver is on the turns, lap by lap. Gave other info such as G-Force, braking points, speed, etc..

10/28/07 Weather highs of 81 degrees clear skies
Consistently in the low 1:19s. It sucks. How did I reach 1:17.8?? I kept asking the guys who have more track experience than I was. Better lines? Maybe. Tires performed better? Maybe. Late braking? Maybe. Could be a lot of things: seat time, weather temps were higher, new tires vs old tires etc…. I got home and thought about this. I realized it is my driving. Its important that I need to use the full potential of the tires, know at what point they function better, because I think when I hit my fastest time that’s what I was doing.
Now, since I feel more comfortable in the new tires, I actually don’t slide much because I am not using the tires much = not enough speed in the turns = slower times


The turns before the bus stop slow me down. I need to have more speeds when I am in here

After the big U-Turn before coming into the bus stop
Another observation from other people: On the first turn my line here is perfect and there are times I actually brake very late here. However, late braking vs coming in too hot is pretty close for me. Sometimes I come into the corner WAY too hot and then lose speed into the turn. On the turns before the bus stop, I noticed when I was driving behind my buddy with the EVO (consistent 1:14s) his turn exit speeds were so much faster than mine. I need to work on that. Although I do believe the difference in drivetrains play a big role in this and the fact that his car is 340whp, I need to work on the turn exits to catch up.


This pic shows the part turning in to the fast S-Turn after the back straightaway. Lots of Gs. This is my favorite place because I usually carry a lot of speed in this part and ALWAYS catch A LOT of people here. However, I was hanging out with Steve (Fooshe) and he told me that I came in too hot into the hairpin corner. I am so used to late braking on this corner (after the fast S) because that is how I pass people up that even during a clean lap I do it. This has caused my turn exits to be slower. “Slow in, Fast out”

This is why the title of this thread is DRIVER MOD. I have to work more on my driving skills. I believe that my car is definitely set up to hit 1:15, maybe 1:14 with a fast driver. I know if I have Eiji Yamada, or Scott (Wa2good) or Mike B. (SinCity350z) or Ed (Eagle1) or Billy Johnson or anyone else drive this car they will hit it. My goal is to hit those times. I definitely have to beat my car.

Car Specs: 35th Anniversary Ultra Yellow (no navigation)
3340lbs with me
Tein Mono Flex with EDFC
Cusco Sway bars fr and rr
Camber -4.2 fr and -2.5 rr
toe settings I forgot, but same as M-Workz Z Time Attack Z
Aligned and Corner balanced by M-Workz
Porterfield R4 race pads
Motul RBF 600
Stoptech steel lines
Nitto NT01 245/275 on 18x9.5” Rota P45R rims
Recaro SPG driver and passenger with Takata harnesses to sparco harness bar

Utec Tuned
DC Headers
UTR test pipes
HKS exhaust
Motordyne MREV2 and 5/16” spacer
AEM air intake

CWest N1 bumper
CWest lip for sides and rear
CWest hood

Hope you guys enjoy my novel! Until the next track event Unfortunately, no Laguna Seca for me on the 9th of November. Something came up. It sucks, because I have been playing my GT4 more than ever! Oh well, maybe next time. My next track event (my last event for the year) is with the Nissan Performance Fest on December 1st and 2nd.

betamotorsports

iTrader: (1)

OK, here's the best advice I can give you...

STOP LOOKING AT LAP TIMES! STOP LOOKING AT LAP TIMES! STOP LOOKING AT LAP TIMES!

You're still early enough in your driving career that the big issue to fix is getting consistent lap times while running the correct line. If you can do that every lap in a session while hitting your brake, turn-in, and exit points exactly the same for the entire 30 minute session, you've accomplished far more then being able to brag to your buddy that "I did a 1:14 - once." Even if you're turning 1:25s, if every lap is a dead on 1:25 you accomplish a lot more the one miracle 1:14, a few 1:17s, a few 1:19, and one freak 1:32.

By doing this you will actually see your lap times improve during the session. Then the next session the times will get even better as your eyes, mind, and body learn the correct way to drive the track.

EDIT: The best driver I know can go out to WSIR, Cal Speedway, Laguna Seca, etc. and turn laps within a few 10ths of a second every time. As the development driver for Mazda's RX8 T3 effort he was "told" by Mazda to turn specific lap times during regional races to sandbag. During a 30 minute race at WSIR he was within 2 tenths of the requested lap time for 8 consecutive laps, in traffic.

Motormouth

iTrader: (44)

another great blog, great pictures and great attitude.

glad to hear you enjoyed it, keep progressing.

also, I think it's data 'acquisition' software < in case you were googling it

Paulie35th350z

iTrader: (5)

Thanks John C. for the response/advice. Thats what I needed and it is really the purpose of this thread. I look at the lap times as an improvement and way for me to see how consistent my driving is. I really have no idea how I hit my time. But I do know how I always hit 1:19, I am consistent with that. I need to be more consistent and to achieve this: More seat time definitely is needed and probably a driving school clinic? As you probably know already, I only started track days this year. Looong way to go, but I am determined to get there.

Every track day I go to, I learn so much. And I always take notes of it. From mechanical stuff, to driving styles everything, to car setup... everything. This is why I get so addicted to track days now because I hang out with people that are very helpful. Noone is an expert, we are all learning. We have different levels of track experiences of course, but we are all learning. We learn from each other.

Thanks, Motormouth. I kept saying "inquisition" when I was at the track. Noone even corrected me.

Eagle1

iTrader: (2)

Paulie, you are doing great. The totally open and honest approach to your questions and challenges shows that the most important element, the space between your ears, is not only working but is open and amenable to learning and thus becoming the strongest part of your driving. That is clear evidence that you will be driving faster, and safely. Which is the goal.

The fastest laps are the ones that did not seem so. Because, you were smooth and not fighting the car, the track or yourself. Some of the laps you may feel were the fastest were not fast at all because you have been working hard, but it was a lot of corrective stuff and that scrubs speed away.

Think about "smooth" and "flow". Think about having the car positioned absolutely PERFECTLY in the precise spot it should be before you begin your braking and turn in, that you load the weight and transition the car into a "set" for the turn at just the right pinpoint on the track. Driving line, braking point, and ESPECIALLY throttle incept on exit. You probably are doing what most of us do early in our evolution as track drivers, haul butt deep into corner entry, brake like a hero without losing control (but not optimally), dive into the turn at the limits of the tires IN THOSE CONDITIONS, and then wobble through and by the time you have real control you are late on throttle and the people you crawled up on at corner entry are leaving you behind on corner exit. By slowing down just a bit more and just a bit earlier, you can have a better overall balancing of weight and that allows more grip and that allows more speed in the corner, and smoother exit at not only a higher velocity, but a higher throttle/acceleration from that velocity. An advantage that carries all the way down the segment to the next turn requiring braking.

If you work on smooth first, then fast will come. And it will be safe and solid "fast". Once that happens then you will polish it to become "faster". Based on solid driving fundamentals.

You have already learned that it is about tires and adhesion, getting the most out of what they have to give. If you run with some street rubber, your times will be slower. But you will get something valuable from it, and that is learning how to gauge what the limits of the rubber are. A street tire is a very "talky" tire, and its squealing and wailing will educate you to when the tire is working, and when it is worried, and when it by golly no fooling really is going to let go and slide. Then you go back to your DOT-R rubber and you will appreciate that they can talk too, but the margins are a lot narrower. Still, you will be working them, and at much higher speeds. Same skills to countersteer and correct, just a more subtle language. As for slicks....well not too communicative. They mumble a little and then break away. At best. Probably not a good idea to mess with them until you have learned a lot more from the street and DOT-R offerings. Besides, the cost and longevity is a problem with them too.

You are doing great. Keep it up, and be safe.

Paulie35th350z

iTrader: (5)

Thank you very much for your response, Ed. You hit it right on the nail. Next time out, I will go with my instructor buddy and have him criticize my driving on and off the track. Hopefully this will keep my steering wheel more straight than it is so my turn exit speeds will be quicker. I will also work on not going in TOO HOT on some of the corners... although I think at Calspeedway it can be a challenge since it is a fast track. Ill definitely work on alot of things.
I will pat myself on the back this time and not be too hard on myself. Im still starting out.

Thanks again! See you at the Nissan festival in December!

Stack

Paulie... are you not getting any in-car instruction out of the event? You're going ***** out and you just started tracking earlier this year right? Beta is right... quit looking at lap times (besides, how were you being timed? Stopwatches? Notoriously inconsistent).

Obviously, you've got some natural talent and smarts cause you haven't balled anything up yet. You've got an extremely capable car. But hell... you're already on competition tires? You never learned to slide the car properly and I promise you, those tires are covering up some poor technique out there if you haven't had some quality instruction. How many hot laps do you get out of them before you start to feel them get greasy, or you start to have to work harder?

Before you spend any money on data acquisition or another set of tires, please either find a group that provides quality instruction, or seek out someone who can spend a whole weekend with you.

Obviously, I don't know you from Adam, but I've seen too many guys gain a whole bunch of confidence because of a little natural talent combined with a capable car and too many early performance mods. I just don't want to see you ball that beautiful car up (or worse) because a situation snuck up on you that you weren't prepared for.

Paulie35th350z

iTrader: (5)

Thanks for the response/advice, Stacy K. My buddy always uses a stopwatch on every event we attend, but I dont really go with that. If you look at some of my pictures, I have an AMB transponder that I rent on track days. It is the red looking box with zip ties on my tow hook.

I have had a 3 days of quality in-car instructions on street tires (kumho mx, toyo t1r) when I was running with NASAs hpde1. I learned alot to control the car sliding it around actually, and I know there's still alot more to be learned. I also went with instructors for 2 Redline track events, one on Toyo T1Rs, one with NT01s.

I wouldnt say I have the confidence because I have alot to think about (OTEs and break my kit, crashing, hitting someone's car etc..)

Lap times to me are just something for me to play around with to see my progress and maybe set a goal. I understand your point though.. I also understand John C.'s point about not looking at lap times. Thanks for the honest response. I appreciate it.

v350z

iTrader: (6)

Hey Bro! I had a great time at Cal Speedway. It's great to read all these experienced drivers comments.

Eagle1 - "You probably are doing what most of us do early in our evolution as track drivers, haul butt deep into corner entry, brake like a hero without losing control (but not optimally), dive into the turn at the limits of the tires IN THOSE CONDITIONS, and then wobble through and by the time you have real control you are late on throttle and the people you crawled up on at corner entry are leaving you behind on corner exit."

Eagle 1 just described me here, ha ha ahahhahhah ahaahhahaah.

Eagle1 - "The fastest laps are the ones that did not seem so. Because, you were smooth and not fighting the car, the track or yourself. Some of the laps you may feel were the fastest were not fast at all because you have been working hard, but it was a lot of corrective stuff and that scrubs speed away."

This is so true, I was focused and calm when I made 1:18.20 and I wasn't sure why.

betamotorsports - "STOP LOOKING AT LAP TIMES! STOP LOOKING AT LAP TIMES! STOP LOOKING AT LAP TIMES!"

betamotorsports - "You're still early enough in your driving career that the big issue to fix is getting consistent lap times while running the correct line. If you can do that every lap in a session while hitting your brake, turn-in, and exit points exactly the same for the entire 30 minute session, you've accomplished far more then being able to brag to your buddy that "I did a 1:14 - once." Even if you're turning 1:25s, if every lap is a dead on 1:25 you accomplish a lot more the one miracle 1:14, a few 1:17s, a few 1:19, and one freak 1:32."

I think this is a great goal the next time we go out, Paulie

Thank you for all the Advice! See you guys in December.

STRETCH

iTrader: (3)

Hey Paul, according to the track veterans here. I should still keep my Kumho Ecsta MX's, because they sure do a lot of talking to me on the track! I wanted to move up to Dot-R's, to improve my lap times but I have 9.5" rims all around and I can't find a good staggered set of Dot-R's that will fit 9.5 inch rims .I will see all of you guys in December! Oh, Not to hi-jack the thread, but if anyone has any idea on Dot-R's for a staggered setup, i.e 265 front/275 rear for 9.5" rims, let me know

Thanks guys, very informative.

Eagle1

iTrader: (2)

You might want to consider running 275 all four corners on 9.5 inch rims.

Eagle1

iTrader: (2)

Kumho makes some nice tires, and priced competitively too. Over time you will undoubtedly try others and find the combination of size and spec and manufacturer that gives the grip, wear, etc. you like for your courses and driving etc.

Looking back over the thread quickly, it impresses me that you got so many quick and very carefully considered pieces of advice, and so enthusiastically respectful and positive. This makes such a great impression of the sincerity of folks trying to help each other out. AND it amplifies what is beneath all of this, which is to help you enjoy motorsport SAFELY. Every bit of concern or advice is grounded in safety first. Fast is not the primary objective, and cannot be. SAFE is the primary objective. Skill development and awareness as part of that comes next. Somewhere along the line, "fast" happens and keeps happening.

Fast does not matter if you do not understand how or why it happened. Consistency, as so aptly noted above, is a true reflection of skill, as well as driving within the perceived limits of the machine and the man, by the man/woman at the controls. Then, you get to working objectively at what are the areas of both machine and man that can be worked on to improve the safe, fast negotiation of the circuit. MOST of the time for us as amateur enthusiasts, the driver is what needs modification, not the car. Rare indeed is it the driver that has extracted all that the car has to give, and especially with a car like the Z or G. And in many cases, even where things can be done to the car.....it just takes you to a different starting place where the same things that were slowing you down...you...become relevant again. Sometimes a car mod will just take you to a spot where the shortcoming in your skills becomes all the more obvious!

Data acquisition systems do help you to discover WHERE you can improve, though you then need to get some help often in discovering WHY you are struggling there and WHAT you need to do to improve it. Most importantly, you may need some very advanced or more experienced help at this point. Somebody who is a lot a better, and "been there done that" in those circumstances so you do not analyze a corner incorrectly, try something that absolutely is the wrong thing and clonk yourself into a wall. The better you get, the closer to the limits and the more dire the consequences of a foul up.

So, while this is performance driving and not zen master meditation, it is worth taking some "quiet time", reflect on your in car video or memory, closing your eyes, and driving the course. You can even take a stopwatch, and while your eyes are closed, drive the lap as close to your recollection as you can. You may be surprised at how close to your actual time it turns out to be! Try doing that three times and compare the lap times! Importantly, work on being calm and smooth. Focus on your command inputs to the steering and brakes and throttle being as seamless as possible. Visualize your key marks for braking incept, turn in point, corner apex, track out point, shift points etc. When you get those mechanics working for you, your mind is more free to be paying attention to the tire talk and adhesion feel of the car. Certain things have to be learned to the point of 'second nature' and cleared out of your mind so that you have more room to deal with the 'next level' of focus. Too many things are happening too rapidly to have it all in the front of your mind. It takes time to work up to that.

So, first things first. Get the driving line. It is not as simple as it sounds, and you already know that. Then after those car control elements, the adhesion limits. Getting closer to the limits means closer to out of control, and that means having the skill sets to bring it back into control. The faster you get going, the more frequent you are on the edge of losing it, and over the edge and having to be able to flick it back consistently.

You will ultimately get to a point where there is a "margin" you rather consistently maintain. And you hit a "plateau" of lap times you cannot break through. Then you will work on that margin....specifically making it narrower...while still being SAFE. That is the skill stuff that really separates great drivers from good ones. It is very clinical and precise and concentrated.

Great satisfaction then comes because with the improvements you make, you will understand how and where and why you did it, and that it was YOU doing it through material improvements in your skill....not a bolt on. Worst mod you can make is 100+ horsepower when it comes to driving. The result is a big "so what". This is about "driving", not the car. And driving has to be about you.

So, with a tip of the hat to all the folks that make cars and car parts that allow for the expression of driving skill safely, the real key is the driver, and keeping him/her safe and on the right path to skill enhancement and pleasure on the track.

There are relatively few people that can choose to do this. You become more and more special with your advancement. We all want to see you around for a long time, and without damage to you or your car. Clanking when you walk is not a resume enhancement or body mod you want! Take it slow to go fast applies to the overall process as well.

Cheers,
Ed

betamotorsports

iTrader: (1)

There's a huge difference between driving a car and operating a vehicle. 90% of the people who have driving licenses are only operating the vehicle. They have no idea what's happening until the horizon shifts suddenly or their head bangs off the side window.

What you're trying to do with driver training and practice is to improve your feel for the car and get ahead of what's going on. You will learn what's important to pay attention to and what you can (and should) ignore. As you progress and your mind sorts the inputs out better, you will begin to notice the subtleties. Instead of your mind screaming "Is the next turn a left or a right?" it will start saying things like, "That inside curb is less sharp at the fifth red stripe and the car didn't launch as much."

You'll come in at the end of the practice session thinking about your laps instead of the brain screeming "Whooo Hoo! Snap! I'm a bad-*** racin' mo'fo'!" That "Whooo Hooo" brain screaming is now reserved for your first win...

STRETCH

iTrader: (3)

I feel like that makes my car an oversteering hassle. When I have 265's in front and 275's in the rear, I feel a perfect balance (on street tires :Kumho ecsta mx's). And Im not ready for slicks...Any ideas on Dot-R's?...Sorry Paul for the tire question in your thread. I'll move it to another thread after no one answers this one

Eagle1

iTrader: (2)

It definitely promotes more oversteer. Do you have adjustable front upper control arms? If so, try putting another quarter to half degree of negative camber with this set up and see what it feels like. I liked it, though admit it was on the 8" longer wheelbase of my car, which is a lot less twitchy. If not, you really should do some reflection and investigation into whether that is a good idea for you.

dmoffitt

iTrader: (4)

3 days of instruction isn't much. I did 12 DEs this year, and am signed off into Group 1 with BMW CCA and White with PCA (soloed with both) and I still take an instructor out over 50% of the time, you can't EVER learn too much.

RKnight

Boy Paulie the racing bug has really bitten you bad haha! I enjoy reading your debriefs after each track outting. I myself am constantly struggling with staying smooth with my steering inputs and braking. Somewere I read some incorrect advice that if you have anti-lock brakes to put them to use by going deep into the corner and jamming on the brakes and while this works for making a pass on someone in a race I think everyone will agree it isn't the fastest way thru a turn. I also probably drift the car thru the tighter turns a little more than I should and even though it is a lot of fun it heats up the street tires I run so they don't have as much grip left by the end of the session as they would if I were easier on them. This is a question I have how much tire slip is allowable for fast times? Just enough to make the tires "sing" or just a little bit of drift to set up for the turns?
See you at CA Speedway in Dec.

Paulie35th350z

iTrader: (5)

Hey Ed. Thank you very much for your insightful response. I believe that I am starting to get a little more analytical with my driving after this event. Well, not as analytical/technical as you or the other guys who obviously have more track experience than I do. However, I believe I have grown alot from my track days and I know there is a lot to learn out there.. from driving styles, to car set up... to track set up.. everything. This last track event with Speedventures has opened my eyes to a lot of things..

dmoffitt: I agree with your statement. I do believe 3 days with NASA and 2 days with Redline instructions are not enough.. Would be nice though if it was I would not be making these threads at all and I would not be spending too much money on track days... I would be the one giving out driving tips to guys with less track experience than I am.. Obviously that is not how it is..

I look up to guys who can drive their cars to the limit.. drive one lap fast and consistent times, then adjust a little bit to the suspension, whether it would be stiffening the front dampers or adjust the camber, drive one lap and drop another second of their lap times... This is what my goal is... obviously I would not reach this goal this year or maybe even next year... However I am optimistic that I will reach it someday (hopefully not too long because track days do get expensive )

Hey Rick long time since I have talked to you how you been? Hows the car. Im definitely addicted now.. there are times when Im at work and I cant focus because all I can think of are track days, how to improve my speed into the corners etc... I agree with the ABS statement... As I have said on my earlier post in this thread, I get a lot of the people in this track (CSW infield) on the part into the hairpin corner after the Fast S past the back straight... I let the ABS kick in then pass the cars... and these cars are M3s, C6s C5s, porsches... and I notice that they are right on my *** on the turn exits and they have to slow down... Also on some of em if I dont pass them on the turn, they pull away from the turn exits and then they give me the point by.. I definitely need to work on this and not brake too much.

John C., I appreciate the ideas. I am starting to develop this eyesight that you are talking about. I met a guy who can see really well, takes notes after each session, and can really see whats in the track at speed. I definitely would love to have this skill. It is very useful as well.

Adam, I dont mind the tire question actually. still new info to me so

DMK

iTrader: (6)

What stiffness do you have your sway bar settings at? And how stiff do you run the edfc on the track and street?

Paulie35th350z

iTrader: (5)

reason for me going with the Tein Mono Flex is the EDFC for ease of adjustability and the higher spring rates (14/14)

the front Cusco is set on full stiff, the rear sway is not adjustable.
for street the EDFC is on 12/12, stiffer than stock but tolerable for me.
for track... it depends which track it is.. but for calspeedway I set it on 0 front/01 rear.. 0=stiffest, 16=softest for Teins.

total track day so far is 12. registered for Nissan Performance Event this Dec 1st and 2nd.. I will have total of 14 track days this year! time went by fast!