HPDE and insurance
07-31-2008, 03:05 AM
#61
They all used to exclude "timed" events so we were safe at HPDE's because they weren't timed. Insurers are shying away from anything outside of regular daily driving. There's another thread on insurance here in which I believe USAA was discussed and they no longer cover "driver education" events.
07-31-2008, 04:50 AM
#62
Well a bit of good news.
Motorsportreg has worked with a company that will now offer HPDE and some compitition coverage as an addition to to your regular policy. We have some details recently and the full coverage will be available soon.
Motorsportreg has worked with a company that will now offer HPDE and some compitition coverage as an addition to to your regular policy. We have some details recently and the full coverage will be available soon.
07-31-2008, 06:13 AM
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I've heard the same thing as the poster above me. But its just what I've -heard- ...not an official word from the insurance company.
I've considered taking my car to the track. I was at an event that I could have, but I decided not to being I had only owned the Z for about a month at that point.
If I were to step on the track, I would assume all responsibility.
I've considered taking my car to the track. I was at an event that I could have, but I decided not to being I had only owned the Z for about a month at that point.
If I were to step on the track, I would assume all responsibility.
07-31-2008, 11:12 AM
#64
I track mine on occasion which is a daily driver also, maybe once every 2 months or so at the moment due to funds and work. But I would like to have some insurance to cover my NISMO if something happened at the track. State Farm here, and they don't cover track use either.
Originally Posted by Fooshe
Hello all!
As a driving instructor, I am always introduced to people who track their street cars. And because my full time job is in the insurance field, I am always asked about coverage on the track. Soooooo, I have decided to do doing some research for an article. The article is directed at Z owners (by it will apply to many others) who track their daily drivers, or at least their non-dedicated race cars, and I am trying to get a feel for market share.
I have approached so carriers for their information on this topic, but I want to cover as many as possible. So please respond if you take your weekend fun car or daily driver to the track. I only need the name of the Insurance Company that issued the policy, not who your agent or representative is.
Thanks for your help....it will only benefit everyone in the long run.
As a driving instructor, I am always introduced to people who track their street cars. And because my full time job is in the insurance field, I am always asked about coverage on the track. Soooooo, I have decided to do doing some research for an article. The article is directed at Z owners (by it will apply to many others) who track their daily drivers, or at least their non-dedicated race cars, and I am trying to get a feel for market share.
I have approached so carriers for their information on this topic, but I want to cover as many as possible. So please respond if you take your weekend fun car or daily driver to the track. I only need the name of the Insurance Company that issued the policy, not who your agent or representative is.
Thanks for your help....it will only benefit everyone in the long run.
Last edited by SOLO-350Z; 07-31-2008 at 11:20 AM.
07-31-2008, 11:16 AM
#65
here's the official announcement:
Los Gatos, CA (July 29, 2008) – Pukka Software, creators of MotorsportReg.com, and Lockton Affinity today announced the industry’s first comprehensive insurance program for high performance driving event participants. The HPDE Insurance Program, available exclusively via MotorsportReg.com, provides an a la carte, single-event policy designed to provide affordable physical damage coverage to cars used in performance driving schools at race tracks across the United States.
“Many automotive insurance policies now exclude coverage for non-competitive events at motor racing facilities,” said Pukka Software founder Brian Ghidinelli. “The HPDE Insurance Program allows enthusiasts to participate in exciting high performance driving schools without risking the vehicle they drive every day.”
The HPDE Insurance Program, administered by Lockton Risk Services, offers an agreed-value insurance policy providing primary coverage for incidents in the paddock or on the racing surface whether the vehicle is being driven by the primary driver, co-driver, or instructor. After-market modifications are covered and claims will not affect participants’ street insurance rates or claim histories. $10,000 of damage coverage can be had for as little as $67. HPDE Insurance Program policies are sold online and can be obtained as quickly as 5-10 minutes.
“Car enthusiasts have been asking for an affordable means of insuring their vehicles at driving schools for years,” said Ryan Staub, Producer at Lockton Affinity. “We partnered with the most widely adopted event registration service to make this coverage easy to acquire. By offering the HPDE Insurance Program during the registration process, MotorsportReg.com event organizers will tap into additional participants who could not previously join in the fun.”
The HPDE Insurance Program is initially available to attendees of non-competitive driving events hosted by BMW Car Club of America, Porsche Club of America, Audi Club North America, and Triangle-Z Car Club. Other organizations wishing to have their programs approved for the HPDE Insurance Program should contact Lockton Affinity.
Please visit http://www.MotorsportReg.com/index.c.../hpdeinsurance for more information or to purchase an HPDE Insurance Program policy.
“Many automotive insurance policies now exclude coverage for non-competitive events at motor racing facilities,” said Pukka Software founder Brian Ghidinelli. “The HPDE Insurance Program allows enthusiasts to participate in exciting high performance driving schools without risking the vehicle they drive every day.”
The HPDE Insurance Program, administered by Lockton Risk Services, offers an agreed-value insurance policy providing primary coverage for incidents in the paddock or on the racing surface whether the vehicle is being driven by the primary driver, co-driver, or instructor. After-market modifications are covered and claims will not affect participants’ street insurance rates or claim histories. $10,000 of damage coverage can be had for as little as $67. HPDE Insurance Program policies are sold online and can be obtained as quickly as 5-10 minutes.
“Car enthusiasts have been asking for an affordable means of insuring their vehicles at driving schools for years,” said Ryan Staub, Producer at Lockton Affinity. “We partnered with the most widely adopted event registration service to make this coverage easy to acquire. By offering the HPDE Insurance Program during the registration process, MotorsportReg.com event organizers will tap into additional participants who could not previously join in the fun.”
The HPDE Insurance Program is initially available to attendees of non-competitive driving events hosted by BMW Car Club of America, Porsche Club of America, Audi Club North America, and Triangle-Z Car Club. Other organizations wishing to have their programs approved for the HPDE Insurance Program should contact Lockton Affinity.
Please visit http://www.MotorsportReg.com/index.c.../hpdeinsurance for more information or to purchase an HPDE Insurance Program policy.
07-31-2008, 11:45 AM
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Marty, I have seen this, but I have not seen their policy jacket yet. The key word is Non-competative. So if you have timing, they may question the coverage. Also, I have to see if there is a clause only for temporary track facilities or if it covers established and perm. tracks. Some policies have a different interpretation.
You see, this is the purpose for the research I am going to do. No hear say, no I think they cover this, just staight information that cuts through the unknowns.
You see, this is the purpose for the research I am going to do. No hear say, no I think they cover this, just staight information that cuts through the unknowns.
07-31-2008, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by davidv
I assume you are asking who insures my car when I am racing?
No, who is your regular carrier.
And again guys, please don't though out your commentary on what you think a policy says....it only confuses people and they may take it for fact and count on it. That is the whole reason I am doing this. I want us all to have the staight word on what is covered, what is in the grey area and what is not covered. I have already learned some interesting information from a few carriers already named and as I thought, some of what the postings have been are misconceptions or the situation has a condition or exclusion that tails it.
07-31-2008, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Specv_USMC
Im with state farm, I have full coverage. I pay a good bit and I dont think they know that my car is ever at the track... never thought id ask. I do know that with my policy from state farm, IF i were to total the car, I would be able to take any property that wasnt OEM. And if i was allowed to do so, if i had receipts, I would be given the purchase price for those products.
mike
mike
I bet you didn't know that State Farm will take a betterment charge if you take a Non-OEM part off the car and don't replace with an OEM one, did you? If you have aftermarket rims, they won't let you just take them and still pay you full price for the car...they want stockers on that car then.
In fact, they will deduct value for anything you take off the car if you don't replace it, except items they would not have covered and were added to the car. Like a toneu cover on a truck. If it was not on the car when MFG'd, you can take them off the car because 1) they did not have them covered to begin with and 2) they don't devalue the car as you added them to a stock vehicle. The exception to that is if you specifically listed it as special equipment on your policy. Then you paid a premium for coverage and they are entitled to it.
Now that being said, some small items are thrown in on your basic coverage like tint, fog lights, etc.
Again, this is the exact reason I tell people, don't assume all policies cover things the way you think they do and always 1) consider that policies are different state to state, carrier to carrier and 2) Don't guess, ask you agent a specific question and get a specific answer.
Mike, I did not pick your post to call you out or make you look bad. I did it because your response is typically what I run in to on a daily basis. I blame the insurance industry for not educating the public better....and that is what I am trying to do. So thanks for your input and participation.
07-31-2008, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by z-u-later
USAA here. Have been with them for over 20 years but have not really inquired about track coverage. IIRC, as long as they're not "timed' events, insurance companies should cover it. HPDEs will fall into this category. Autocross are timed events but the likelihood of you wiping out is very low. But there was one case last year where a Porsche flowed into several parked cars at the end of an autocross cross (badly designed course).
FWIW, if you have been racing your Z and your name is listed online as a participant in autocross & HPDE events, your name will likely show up if an insurance company investigates and "Googles" your name. Trust me, I've personally Googled my name and it is obvious that I've been participating in track events. The bottom line -- if you can't afford to damage or lose your car, don't play.
FWIW, if you have been racing your Z and your name is listed online as a participant in autocross & HPDE events, your name will likely show up if an insurance company investigates and "Googles" your name. Trust me, I've personally Googled my name and it is obvious that I've been participating in track events. The bottom line -- if you can't afford to damage or lose your car, don't play.
) they find out more than you think.
07-31-2008, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by hkman78
I think it depends on the wording of the policy. Some poilcy stated that it wont cover "if you involve in a competition or time trial or any kind of illegal street racing". But if you were only driving the car in a track during a track day, technically you are not in a competition or time trial racing. You can argue that with your insurance company and see if you can get coverage for that.
But wouldn't you rather know before something happens what your coverage is instead of guessing and arguing?
First off, the interepretation of the policy is where most companies end up in court. They have theirs and you have yours. You are right about the wording on Competitions. However, illegal street racing (Show me one street race that is legal) is usually not stated.
Now you said "But if you were only driving the car in a track during a track day, technically you are not in a competition or time trial racing. You can argue that with your insurance company and see if you can get coverage for that." Here is the bad news. Some carriers, let's take Progressive in CA for example, have an exclusion in their policy that states there is no coverage "while upon any temporary or permenant racing facility or surface."
Here is a perfect example of one person thinking that he could argue his way into coverage, but the policy clearly states that the damage would be excluded due to the nature of where it happened, not how it happened. Again, this is not to make anyone look stupid, it is to enlighten the fourm so they are better informed about their coverage.
I truly hope this is hitting home for some of you. BTW, if you have specific questions, let me know so we can cover that information in the research.
07-31-2008, 12:23 PM
#72
I do know in NC that if the event is a non-competitive, non-timed event that the vehicle will be covered as value stated by the policy as if in a standard street accident by NC state law, even if it happens off government pavement. This does not mean they can not drop you or raise your rates to ten million dollars afterwards though.
We have two underwriters and a NIHS represenative in the club.
We have two underwriters and a NIHS represenative in the club.
07-31-2008, 02:01 PM
#73
Originally Posted by Fooshe
Not so fast Mike.
I bet you didn't know that State Farm will take a betterment charge if you take a Non-OEM part off the car and don't replace with an OEM one, did you? If you have aftermarket rims, they won't let you just take them and still pay you full price for the car...they want stockers on that car then.
In fact, they will deduct value for anything you take off the car if you don't replace it, except items they would not have covered and were added to the car. Like a toneu cover on a truck. If it was not on the car when MFG'd, you can take them off the car because 1) they did not have them covered to begin with and 2) they don't devalue the car as you added them to a stock vehicle. The exception to that is if you specifically listed it as special equipment on your policy. Then you paid a premium for coverage and they are entitled to it.
Now that being said, some small items are thrown in on your basic coverage like tint, fog lights, etc.
Again, this is the exact reason I tell people, don't assume all policies cover things the way you think they do and always 1) consider that policies are different state to state, carrier to carrier and 2) Don't guess, ask you agent a specific question and get a specific answer.
Mike, I did not pick your post to call you out or make you look bad. I did it because your response is typically what I run in to on a daily basis. I blame the insurance industry for not educating the public better....and that is what I am trying to do. So thanks for your input and participation.
I bet you didn't know that State Farm will take a betterment charge if you take a Non-OEM part off the car and don't replace with an OEM one, did you? If you have aftermarket rims, they won't let you just take them and still pay you full price for the car...they want stockers on that car then.
In fact, they will deduct value for anything you take off the car if you don't replace it, except items they would not have covered and were added to the car. Like a toneu cover on a truck. If it was not on the car when MFG'd, you can take them off the car because 1) they did not have them covered to begin with and 2) they don't devalue the car as you added them to a stock vehicle. The exception to that is if you specifically listed it as special equipment on your policy. Then you paid a premium for coverage and they are entitled to it.
Now that being said, some small items are thrown in on your basic coverage like tint, fog lights, etc.
Again, this is the exact reason I tell people, don't assume all policies cover things the way you think they do and always 1) consider that policies are different state to state, carrier to carrier and 2) Don't guess, ask you agent a specific question and get a specific answer.
Mike, I did not pick your post to call you out or make you look bad. I did it because your response is typically what I run in to on a daily basis. I blame the insurance industry for not educating the public better....and that is what I am trying to do. So thanks for your input and participation.
Quick question - where are you getting this info from?
07-31-2008, 02:33 PM
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From 3 friends I have in the claims dept. at State Farm in So Cal. One has been there 12 years. That is off of their standard auto policy. I will say this again, state to state the rules may change and the product can change. What is excluded in CA may not be in NY. However, CT is the same as CA according to them.
08-01-2008, 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Fooshe
Marty, I have seen this, but I have not seen their policy jacket yet. The key word is Non-competative. So if you have timing, they may question the coverage. Also, I have to see if there is a clause only for temporary track facilities or if it covers established and perm. tracks. Some policies have a different interpretation.
You see, this is the purpose for the research I am going to do. No hear say, no I think they cover this, just staight information that cuts through the unknowns.
You see, this is the purpose for the research I am going to do. No hear say, no I think they cover this, just staight information that cuts through the unknowns.
Now... as to the coverage Marty mentioned above...
Here's the website for anyone interested: http://hpdeins.locktonaffinity.com/
Ryan Staub is who I've gotten our info from, and here's what I know
- Covers damage to your vehicle based on an agreed-upon base value plus mod value
- Covers your vehicle during driver's ed use, non-competitive
- Definitely covers your car on permanent tracks... thats the whole point
- PER-EVENT coverage, only with approved groups (the website actually has links to specific events to purchase coverage)
- Groups must conform to certain protocols like structured run groups, instruction (in-car and classroom), enforced passing rules, 2-spin rules, professional corner workers, incident reporting, etc, etc.
- NO Subrogation clause, no reporting
- Data logging is OK
Even combination events can be covered, so long as the competitive portion is kept separate from the DE portion (and of course, if the incident happens during the competitive portion, you would not be covered.) "Weekend" events can be covered under one policy as well (for example, club A runs a DE on Sat/Sun, club B runs a lapping day on Monday... assuming both clubs conform to the stipulations.)
(deleted line cause it has already been covered and doesn't relate to my post in any other way)
Last edited by Stack; 08-01-2008 at 05:56 AM.
08-01-2008, 06:55 PM
#78
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Originally Posted by Fooshe
But wouldn't you rather know before something happens what your coverage is instead of guessing and arguing?
First off, the interepretation of the policy is where most companies end up in court. They have theirs and you have yours. You are right about the wording on Competitions. However, illegal street racing (Show me one street race that is legal) is usually not stated.
Now you said "But if you were only driving the car in a track during a track day, technically you are not in a competition or time trial racing. You can argue that with your insurance company and see if you can get coverage for that." Here is the bad news. Some carriers, let's take Progressive in CA for example, have an exclusion in their policy that states there is no coverage "while upon any temporary or permenant racing facility or surface."
Here is a perfect example of one person thinking that he could argue his way into coverage, but the policy clearly states that the damage would be excluded due to the nature of where it happened, not how it happened. Again, this is not to make anyone look stupid, it is to enlighten the fourm so they are better informed about their coverage.
I truly hope this is hitting home for some of you. BTW, if you have specific questions, let me know so we can cover that information in the research.
First off, the interepretation of the policy is where most companies end up in court. They have theirs and you have yours. You are right about the wording on Competitions. However, illegal street racing (Show me one street race that is legal) is usually not stated.
Now you said "But if you were only driving the car in a track during a track day, technically you are not in a competition or time trial racing. You can argue that with your insurance company and see if you can get coverage for that." Here is the bad news. Some carriers, let's take Progressive in CA for example, have an exclusion in their policy that states there is no coverage "while upon any temporary or permenant racing facility or surface."
Here is a perfect example of one person thinking that he could argue his way into coverage, but the policy clearly states that the damage would be excluded due to the nature of where it happened, not how it happened. Again, this is not to make anyone look stupid, it is to enlighten the fourm so they are better informed about their coverage.
I truly hope this is hitting home for some of you. BTW, if you have specific questions, let me know so we can cover that information in the research.
I agree that from your example of your policy wording, coverage would not be afforded due to "where it happend". That's why I said from the beginning "depends on the wording of the policy."
08-01-2008, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by davidv
I did. And you did not answer a simple question. Goodbye forever.
Sorry Dave...I didn't see your post. My bad. Please don't leave me forever...what will I ever do without you???I am interested in who insures the group on a daily basis, I am not really worried about who insures people at the track. However, if you want to throw that in...great.
08-01-2008, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by hkman78
I think it depends on the wording of the policy. Some poilcy stated that it wont cover "if you involve in a competition or time trial or any kind of illegal street racing". But if you were only driving the car in a track during a track day, technically you are not in a competition or time trial racing. You can argue that with your insurance company and see if you can get coverage for that.
Understood HKman.....however, the way the post reads it seemed to have a different meaning. Nevertheless, I understand your point and it is actually the most important thing to look for...the wording. Thanks for your input and interest.