hmm...maybe bolt-in cages do work...PICS of Subaru roll-over at Buttonwillow
12-24-2008, 07:09 PM
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hmm...maybe bolt-in cages do work...PICS of Subaru roll-over at Buttonwillow
Owner had additional safety equipment, but for his cage, it was Cusco bolt-in cage.
Maybe these bolt-in cages work better than most of us thought.
Pics on pg 1 and 5
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...t=buttonwillow
Maybe these bolt-in cages work better than most of us thought.
Pics on pg 1 and 5
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...t=buttonwillow
12-24-2008, 08:10 PM
#5
Let me just say for the record that although it seems that the cage held up, I am not convinced. I have had three autopower cages constructed with DOM tubing. and my buddies have had cusco cages. the CUSCO CAGES ARE MADE OF FOIL! compared to my autopower, i would NEVER EVER trust my life to the cusco cage EVER! EVER! If your gonna get a cage do it right. PS: Ive used bolt in autopower cages not weld in.
12-25-2008, 10:05 AM
#6
As much as i like Cusco Roll cage for 350z, i can't justify the looks for my safety. Since my car is equipped with side and curtain airbags, if i was ever involved in a T-bone situation, the force of the side airbags will not work properly, and the force of the curtain airbag might shatter the roof section of the cage.
12-25-2008, 10:19 AM
#7
It looks like the overall cabin of the car stayed pretty well intact without the "cage's" help. I would not go as far as saying that the Cusco cage "works" at track events. The only bolt in roll bars/cages I would trust in our cars is the Kirk racing and Autopower. Of course a custom cage from a quality builder is ideal.
Last edited by Rickdogg; 12-25-2008 at 10:57 AM.
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12-25-2008, 10:31 AM
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Have none of you guys never seen other Subaru roll over accidents? Subaru's have probably the strongest pillars in the industry. The cage might have helped, but I've seen 100+mph roll overs in non-caged Subys that looked nearly that good.
12-25-2008, 10:36 AM
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I sure hope your not running the air bags with the cage installed.
And, his cage did want it was designed to do. Will a custom built cage hold up better. You bet it would.
If I was to purchase a bolt I would at least make it stronger with welding plates to the body interior floor.
It's how much value you put on safety.
From what I can see:
No HANS
No 5pt or 6pt harness belts
Stock Seats
No Fire Bottle
If you're going to track on a regular basis you really should have these in the car.
He is lucky.
"Cold tires with cold ambient temps on second lap. I was trying to catch a friend in a yellow wagon, and I didn't even think of the damp dirt. I've have gone off before in dry dirt and there were no issues. This was my sixth event at this track, and the passenger is my friend who also instructs. I have taken that exact corner at that gear and speed before, but it was summer conditions and the car held. This was completely my fault, not the tires. Too fast for prevailing conditions."
Turn in? Did he lift off the throttle.
Track days around here they force us two laps behind a pace car to warm up the tires. Even with R-compounds in the summer they tell us two medium laps before you go 8/10s on the track.
Obviously, this could of been avoided. Glad he is ok.
And, his cage did want it was designed to do. Will a custom built cage hold up better. You bet it would.
If I was to purchase a bolt I would at least make it stronger with welding plates to the body interior floor.
It's how much value you put on safety.
From what I can see:
No HANS
No 5pt or 6pt harness belts
Stock Seats
No Fire Bottle
If you're going to track on a regular basis you really should have these in the car.
He is lucky.
"Cold tires with cold ambient temps on second lap. I was trying to catch a friend in a yellow wagon, and I didn't even think of the damp dirt. I've have gone off before in dry dirt and there were no issues. This was my sixth event at this track, and the passenger is my friend who also instructs. I have taken that exact corner at that gear and speed before, but it was summer conditions and the car held. This was completely my fault, not the tires. Too fast for prevailing conditions."
Turn in? Did he lift off the throttle.
Track days around here they force us two laps behind a pace car to warm up the tires. Even with R-compounds in the summer they tell us two medium laps before you go 8/10s on the track.
Obviously, this could of been avoided. Glad he is ok.
Last edited by WXSigns; 12-25-2008 at 10:47 AM.
12-25-2008, 10:55 AM
#10
I sure hope your not running the air bags with the cage installed.
And, his cage did want it was designed to do. Will a custom built cage hold up better. You bet it would.
If I was to purchase a bolt I would at least make it stronger with welding plates to the body interior floor.
It's how much value you put on safety.
From what I can see:
No HANS
No 5pt or 6pt harness belts
Stock Seats
No Fire Bottle
If you're going to track on a regular basis you really should have these in the car.
He is lucky.
"Cold tires with cold ambient temps on second lap. I was trying to catch a friend in a yellow wagon, and I didn't even think of the damp dirt. I've have gone off before in dry dirt and there were no issues. This was my sixth event at this track, and the passenger is my friend who also instructs. I have taken that exact corner at that gear and speed before, but it was summer conditions and the car held. This was completely my fault, not the tires. Too fast for prevailing conditions."
Turn in? Did he lift off the throttle.
Track days around here they force us two laps behind a pace car to warm up the tires. Even with R-compounds in the summer they tell us two medium laps before you go 8/10s on the track.
Obviously, this could of been avoided. Glad he is ok.
And, his cage did want it was designed to do. Will a custom built cage hold up better. You bet it would.
If I was to purchase a bolt I would at least make it stronger with welding plates to the body interior floor.
It's how much value you put on safety.
From what I can see:
No HANS
No 5pt or 6pt harness belts
Stock Seats
No Fire Bottle
If you're going to track on a regular basis you really should have these in the car.
He is lucky.
"Cold tires with cold ambient temps on second lap. I was trying to catch a friend in a yellow wagon, and I didn't even think of the damp dirt. I've have gone off before in dry dirt and there were no issues. This was my sixth event at this track, and the passenger is my friend who also instructs. I have taken that exact corner at that gear and speed before, but it was summer conditions and the car held. This was completely my fault, not the tires. Too fast for prevailing conditions."
Turn in? Did he lift off the throttle.
Track days around here they force us two laps behind a pace car to warm up the tires. Even with R-compounds in the summer they tell us two medium laps before you go 8/10s on the track.
Obviously, this could of been avoided. Glad he is ok.
12-25-2008, 11:01 AM
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ChangVi - great to hear. I have 45 track days in since 2006. Probably 30 impacts have occurred during that time. 29 all by driver error. 1- Mechanical failure.
I've even had a car drop two and flip as I was approaching the area. That will put a pucker factor on you if you let it.
From SCCA on air bags and helmets:
"DATE: November 16, 2004
FROM: National Staff
TO: All Participants
SUBJECT: Airbag Advisory
It has been brought to the attention of SCCA Technical Services that the use
of full-face or closed-face helmets while driving vehicles with active airbag
restraint systems may result in injuries in the event of a crash that deploys
the airbag. Because of the location of the steering wheel relative to a
driver’s position, the airbag axis is on a level with the driver’s chin. In a
crash with airbag deployment, contact with the chin area of a full-face
helmet can be so powerful “that the risk of fractures to the jaw cannot be
ruled out“ (Hubert Gramling, FIA Institute, FT3/AF, 18.5.1999). This applies
to vehicle that may be used in Solo, RallyCross, High Performance Car
Control Clinics, etc.
Therefore, it is highly recommended that full-face helmets not be used in
vehicles with functional airbag systems. Potentially more restrictive language
is currently being considered for 2005, which could appear in an early 2005
issue of FasTrack. If you have any questions, please contact the SCCA at
(800) 770-2055."
I've even had a car drop two and flip as I was approaching the area. That will put a pucker factor on you if you let it.
From SCCA on air bags and helmets:
"DATE: November 16, 2004
FROM: National Staff
TO: All Participants
SUBJECT: Airbag Advisory
It has been brought to the attention of SCCA Technical Services that the use
of full-face or closed-face helmets while driving vehicles with active airbag
restraint systems may result in injuries in the event of a crash that deploys
the airbag. Because of the location of the steering wheel relative to a
driver’s position, the airbag axis is on a level with the driver’s chin. In a
crash with airbag deployment, contact with the chin area of a full-face
helmet can be so powerful “that the risk of fractures to the jaw cannot be
ruled out“ (Hubert Gramling, FIA Institute, FT3/AF, 18.5.1999). This applies
to vehicle that may be used in Solo, RallyCross, High Performance Car
Control Clinics, etc.
Therefore, it is highly recommended that full-face helmets not be used in
vehicles with functional airbag systems. Potentially more restrictive language
is currently being considered for 2005, which could appear in an early 2005
issue of FasTrack. If you have any questions, please contact the SCCA at
(800) 770-2055."
12-25-2008, 11:03 AM
#12
WXSigns
Do you track your car, it sounds like it? I was thinking about getting into some track days next year and just not sure what I should do safety wise. I just autox now, and this is also my daily driver. What recommendations do you have. What should you do for a daily driver cage wise and should you turn your airbags off on track days. Thanks for all the help.
Do you track your car, it sounds like it? I was thinking about getting into some track days next year and just not sure what I should do safety wise. I just autox now, and this is also my daily driver. What recommendations do you have. What should you do for a daily driver cage wise and should you turn your airbags off on track days. Thanks for all the help.
12-25-2008, 01:22 PM
#14
ChangVi - great to hear. I have 45 track days in since 2006. Probably 30 impacts have occurred during that time. 29 all by driver error. 1- Mechanical failure.
I've even had a car drop two and flip as I was approaching the area. That will put a pucker factor on you if you let it.
From SCCA on air bags and helmets:
"DATE: November 16, 2004
FROM: National Staff
TO: All Participants
SUBJECT: Airbag Advisory
It has been brought to the attention of SCCA Technical Services that the use
of full-face or closed-face helmets while driving vehicles with active airbag
restraint systems may result in injuries in the event of a crash that deploys
the airbag. Because of the location of the steering wheel relative to a
driver’s position, the airbag axis is on a level with the driver’s chin. In a
crash with airbag deployment, contact with the chin area of a full-face
helmet can be so powerful “that the risk of fractures to the jaw cannot be
ruled out“ (Hubert Gramling, FIA Institute, FT3/AF, 18.5.1999). This applies
to vehicle that may be used in Solo, RallyCross, High Performance Car
Control Clinics, etc.
Therefore, it is highly recommended that full-face helmets not be used in
vehicles with functional airbag systems. Potentially more restrictive language
is currently being considered for 2005, which could appear in an early 2005
issue of FasTrack. If you have any questions, please contact the SCCA at
(800) 770-2055."
I've even had a car drop two and flip as I was approaching the area. That will put a pucker factor on you if you let it.
From SCCA on air bags and helmets:
"DATE: November 16, 2004
FROM: National Staff
TO: All Participants
SUBJECT: Airbag Advisory
It has been brought to the attention of SCCA Technical Services that the use
of full-face or closed-face helmets while driving vehicles with active airbag
restraint systems may result in injuries in the event of a crash that deploys
the airbag. Because of the location of the steering wheel relative to a
driver’s position, the airbag axis is on a level with the driver’s chin. In a
crash with airbag deployment, contact with the chin area of a full-face
helmet can be so powerful “that the risk of fractures to the jaw cannot be
ruled out“ (Hubert Gramling, FIA Institute, FT3/AF, 18.5.1999). This applies
to vehicle that may be used in Solo, RallyCross, High Performance Car
Control Clinics, etc.
Therefore, it is highly recommended that full-face helmets not be used in
vehicles with functional airbag systems. Potentially more restrictive language
is currently being considered for 2005, which could appear in an early 2005
issue of FasTrack. If you have any questions, please contact the SCCA at
(800) 770-2055."
12-25-2008, 02:44 PM
#16
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Good question. I'm sure someone on here knows the answer.
I know there are devices to make the CPU think there are still available to deploy. Aftermarket steering wheel and seats will eliminate all the bags except for the passengers side.
I'm not worried about that one deploying as I don't let anyone ride with me on the track. Most clubs prohibit a passenger unless it's an instructor.
I know there are devices to make the CPU think there are still available to deploy. Aftermarket steering wheel and seats will eliminate all the bags except for the passengers side.
I'm not worried about that one deploying as I don't let anyone ride with me on the track. Most clubs prohibit a passenger unless it's an instructor.
12-25-2008, 04:30 PM
#17
ChangVi - great to hear. I have 45 track days in since 2006. Probably 30 impacts have occurred during that time. 29 all by driver error. 1- Mechanical failure.
I've even had a car drop two and flip as I was approaching the area. That will put a pucker factor on you if you let it.
From SCCA on air bags and helmets:
"DATE: November 16, 2004
FROM: National Staff
TO: All Participants
SUBJECT: Airbag Advisory
It has been brought to the attention of SCCA Technical Services that the use
of full-face or closed-face helmets while driving vehicles with active airbag
restraint systems may result in injuries in the event of a crash that deploys
the airbag. Because of the location of the steering wheel relative to a
driver’s position, the airbag axis is on a level with the driver’s chin. In a
crash with airbag deployment, contact with the chin area of a full-face
helmet can be so powerful “that the risk of fractures to the jaw cannot be
ruled out“ (Hubert Gramling, FIA Institute, FT3/AF, 18.5.1999). This applies
to vehicle that may be used in Solo, RallyCross, High Performance Car
Control Clinics, etc.
Therefore, it is highly recommended that full-face helmets not be used in
vehicles with functional airbag systems. Potentially more restrictive language
is currently being considered for 2005, which could appear in an early 2005
issue of FasTrack. If you have any questions, please contact the SCCA at
(800) 770-2055."
I've even had a car drop two and flip as I was approaching the area. That will put a pucker factor on you if you let it.
From SCCA on air bags and helmets:
"DATE: November 16, 2004
FROM: National Staff
TO: All Participants
SUBJECT: Airbag Advisory
It has been brought to the attention of SCCA Technical Services that the use
of full-face or closed-face helmets while driving vehicles with active airbag
restraint systems may result in injuries in the event of a crash that deploys
the airbag. Because of the location of the steering wheel relative to a
driver’s position, the airbag axis is on a level with the driver’s chin. In a
crash with airbag deployment, contact with the chin area of a full-face
helmet can be so powerful “that the risk of fractures to the jaw cannot be
ruled out“ (Hubert Gramling, FIA Institute, FT3/AF, 18.5.1999). This applies
to vehicle that may be used in Solo, RallyCross, High Performance Car
Control Clinics, etc.
Therefore, it is highly recommended that full-face helmets not be used in
vehicles with functional airbag systems. Potentially more restrictive language
is currently being considered for 2005, which could appear in an early 2005
issue of FasTrack. If you have any questions, please contact the SCCA at
(800) 770-2055."
The study referenced in the release was done on Formula One cars, not street cars. The type of airbags were totally different and the driver position (reclining) relative to the airbag deployment direction is not comparable to a normal street car setup.
The bottom line was that nobody ever claimed or supported the idea that full face helmets should not be used nor should airbags be disabled in street cars.
12-25-2008, 06:05 PM
#19
Sadly, that SCCA article has been taken totally out of context. I remember back in 2004 when it first came out as I was in the market for a helmet. Eventually, the whole story came out on SCCAforums.
The study referenced in the release was done on Formula One cars, not street cars. The type of airbags were totally different and the driver position (reclining) relative to the airbag deployment direction is not comparable to a normal street car setup.
The bottom line was that nobody ever claimed or supported the idea that full face helmets should not be used nor should airbags be disabled in street cars.
The study referenced in the release was done on Formula One cars, not street cars. The type of airbags were totally different and the driver position (reclining) relative to the airbag deployment direction is not comparable to a normal street car setup.
The bottom line was that nobody ever claimed or supported the idea that full face helmets should not be used nor should airbags be disabled in street cars.
The airbag being tested were special, high-speed units, designed for F1 speeds (something like twice as fast as the commercial airbags of the time).
The driver and wheel position placed the airbag less than 12 inches away from and below the chin bar with no way for the head to rotate forward to better position the head for airbag "impact" (this was noted in the research, and was noted as a difficulty for the airbag solution).
The original advisory was posted, heavily discussed, and quickly removed when the document was more fully researched. That being said, for race/track day cars, the airbags should be removed (having an explosive in the car is not something that corner workers are not interested in having around).