Stack

Depends on the bar, and its installation. If it is of similar construction to what you would find built into a roll bar, (i.e. 1-3/4" tubing, .120 wall thickness, and mounted structurally to the car) breaking should not be an issue.....

Scroth is also out to sell harnesses... and yes, if mounted properly, the belts should work as advertised, no one is claiming that they won't. That doesn't mean that YOUR new safety system will work better than the factory's safety system.

#1 ... Work on your smoothness, anticipate the next corner, pre-position your hands on the steering wheel for tight corners, pre-position your *** in the seat if necessary, but most importantly, work on driving smoothly. This will also come in handy once you don't have to worry about it (i.e. once you get proper seats). Also get some thick tool drawer shelf liner to sit on if you have leather seats. If you have truly progressed in your skill level to the point where it is sheer speed and G-loads preventing you from driving the car smoothly and safely, then you need to invest in a proper safety system ANYWAY.

#2 ... I've read this reasoning (rationalization?) many times and while I understand it, I completely disagree with it. Here's why:

First of all, any accident where a harness would be safer than a stock three-point belt, would by definition NOT be one of those "common" accidents; it's now (for example) probably a high- to medium-speed frontal impact with something. Your stock belts will work in conjunction with your airbags to save you from even the most severe impacts as it is a SYSTEM designed to do so. When you wear harnesses, you effectively remove the airbag set up from your safety system... so you've compromised your overall safety, even though you've improved your belt set up. Now your body/torso are more confined, but your head and neck are not.

Secondly, something you may not have thought about in terms of a harness bar is the bar's relation to your head/neck if your stock seats were to fail backwards (another very common accident like sliding backwards into something or being hit from behind.) Even if the seat back only moves a few inches until it hits the rear deck, if that bar is located such that your headrest would hit the bar, you're looking at a broken neck at best.

You have to remember, that even though those severe accidents are less than 1% probably, the severity of those accidents trumps their rarity. It only takes one. You also need to keep in mind, that when you start going faster whether by skill or vehicle modifications (tires especially) you increase your chances of getting yourself into one of those 1% situations.

Ataru074

iTrader: (19)

yes but think also that we usually go on the road for daily commute with basic protection and around you don't have only other cars.. you have semi truck, piece of tires on the road, deers... once I almost hit an axle from a truck.

and we do that for thousands of mile per year with minimum concerns.

if God wants you on his side, he'll find a way.

(I agree, the perfect solution would be a properly built cage, racing seats, 6 point harness, hans, fire extinguishers, fuel cell, full nomex suit, balaclava and so on... but again... hpde isn't racing)

Stack

What I'm saying... one of the points I'm trying to make anyway... is that the stock safety system in modern cars (what you call "basic") is actually VERY good and will protect you in most instances... when its full capability is utilized, which includes active and passive systems. (Sorry, that really didn't address your statement.) In a DE, or even a race, you've taken away MOST of the dangers from street driving, but you've also increased the speeds. So while I fully agree that there are more dangers in your daily commute, you're also out there only using a very very very small fraction of the car's performance and safety capabilities.

Well... that's a whole 'nother topic of conversation

No, it's not racing... but when this topic comes up, we're usually talking about drivers who are driving their cars very similarly to how one would drive while racing... in fact, often faster since traffic is usually less, and sessions become more like "qualifying" sessions rather than race sessions. So while yeah, there's no wheel-to-wheel banging going on, you're still asking a street car to perform like a race car.

The main point I'm trying to get at is this: we all have to make a decision at some point... do we continue to push our street cars to and beyond their limits? Do we continue to modify them with go-fast goodies, big brakes, trick suspensions, forced induction, r-compound tires, but then think that a "compromise" in our safety system is good enough?

When most people ask these questions on forums, they aren't looking for real answers, they are looking for someone to back up the decision they've already made. I can't tell if the OP is in this place or not, I can only hope that my arguments (as an event organizer and a 9 year participant... 7 of which were on street tires, stock seats, stock belts, in various cars) will help the OP and anyone else reading make a more informed decision.

sfarrah

iTrader: (4)

Hey Chris, considering how much track time you get in, what is stopping you from getting a roll bar? They really aren't that intrusive or much more expensive than a harness bar considering the added protection. I would think it's a relatively small investment with a huge upside in safety and added chassis rigidity.

mthreat

iTrader: (16)

You definitely make some good points. I have been trying to decide whether to get a harness, and what kind, for over a year. I'm still not sure what the right answer is, and until I'm pretty sure, then I'll stick with my stock setup. I do "lock" the stock seatbelt in place by reclining the seat, jerking the belt to lock it, and inclining the seat again, so I'm nice and snug. It's ghetto but it works for now. What got me actively looking again was a very good group buy from SPL parts on Schroth 6-point harnesses. That's why I started this thread, then learned that I should not use a 6-point with stock seats.


If I can get a fairly non-intrusive roll bar that is still safe on the street and doesn't require gutting my interior, I'd definitely consider it. I looked at a few on this page:

http://www.ioportracing.com/Merchant...ory_Code=AP174

Some of them require welding, which I'm not sure about for a few reasons (reversibility and cost I guess).


Things would be a lot simpler, I admit, if I would just commit to making my Z a real race car

Stack

Simpler? maybe

What kind of price for those Schroth 6-points? You can get G-Force 6-points pretty-much anytime for around $150. Sparco's aren't too far from that as well (and they are now made by Schroth.) So don't get sucked in to spending more money than you need, even if it's a deal relative to Schroth prices.

As far as the roll bar ... there are a number of threads relating to it and the 350Z... the Kirk bar seems to have the best fitment. You may also be able to find someone local to you to fabricate one that will fit better for about the same money. Keep an eye on the classifieds too, every now and then someone is converting a 350Z back to street prep.

betamotorsports

iTrader: (1)

I always question the assumption that a bolt-in installation is more reversible then a weld in installation. Remember, a bolt-in roll bar has at least twelve 3/8" holes drilled through the body of the car. Those will have to be filled in via welding and then ground down or plugged and sealed after bar removal. A welded in bar gets cut off and ground down to the mounting plates.

In both cases the area will have to be cleaned up and painted.

sfarrah

iTrader: (4)

I wouldn't worry about having to remove or modify a few interior pieces for the piece of mind you gain knowing you have a roll bar in there. How much time to you spend in your hatch anyway??? I think safety can be had without going all out with a dedicated track/race car, but the more the merrier if you want to come racing!
Heck, I have all the old interior out of my car available if you don't want to mess up yours.
I'm glad you brought this subject up though or I would never have known about the 4pt belts with the anti-submarining. Tempted to install these in my z32.

baileyrx

iTrader: (16)

not sure if this was brought up but, if you drive with an instructor, most hsde schools require the driver to use the same restraint system as the instructor. Therefore if the passanger seat has the oem seatbelts, the driver must also use the oem seatbelts.

mthreat

iTrader: (16)

Thanks for the responses guys. I was unaware of these install / uninstall issues (I've never installed a bar or cage). I'll probably wait on a roll bar or cage unless I make it a more dedicated track car.

Stack

It's definitely a big decision. I waited a long time to do it (mostly waiting on a reliable car that I didn't think I was going to be wasting the money on) and after having done it, I'll never look back. My car is a track car and a weekend/daily driver and I've modified my stock seats to accept 6-points. The roll bar is positioned in such a way as to also act as a seat-back brace.

I've made sacrifices and compromises to do it (limited seat position, no use of back seat.) I've also made a risk concession in that the bar is probably closer to my head than it should be for street use (although I do have high-density padding, it'll still hurt.) I'm willing to take my chances on public roads at normal speeds... and by "take my chances" I mean:

• Staying alert
• Following all traffic rules (for the most part )
• Elliminating distractions whenever possible (phones, food, etc.)
• Knowing that I NEVER know whats "around the corner" (unlike on a road course)
• Assuming that most drivers around me on the street are GOING to do something stupid and being prepared for it

Z3305

M- I installed a Sparco harness bar with Sparco 4-point belts last year and with 50+ track days it's the best mod I've done to my car. Since the stock belts aren't removed there's no downside putting this in, IMO. You'll experience less fatigue with the 4-point compared to hanging on to the single shoulder belt all day and since you're not using energy to brace yourself in corners you'll be surprised by how much better you feel what the car's doing. I didn't want a race seat because my car has the the airbag option and I want to keep those for now. When it's a dedicated track car I'll trade the airbags for the roll cage. For now it's perfect for the street (as always) and much better on the track.

Stack

Got any pictures?

Z3305

Stack- I haven't ever posted any photos but i guess i could since I'm a photographer! Anything you're especially interested in seeing details of?

Stack

A few things to start...

1. The proximity of the harness bar to the seat head rest... both with the seat in the normal position, and also laid all the way back (to simulate what might happen in a rear-end collision w/seat-back failure)
2. Main mounting points, and any support/strut points
3. Harness lap belt/anti-sub strap mounts

Z3305

Stack- Will do. I live in Louisville and the Ky Derby is this weekend (I work at the newspaper), so it may not be until next week. Verbally I can tell you the Sparco bar allows full seatback travel on my '05 350Z and the mounting points are on the B pillar. The 350 doesn't use support struts as you may have seen on cars with a backseat like the Evo. Also, it's a 4-point harness, so no sub belt. But I'll put up photos. And I may have to pm you for guidance on that. I've been defeated in trying to post both an avatar photo and a signature. Hopefully I'm a better driver than a forum user...duh

Stack

No problem ... you can send me the photos and I can host them if needed.

Maybe you can make it to the event I'm hosting at Bluegrass in late July! That is, assuming we can get this harness bar thing resolved

mthreat

iTrader: (16)

Stacy, here are a few photos of the Sparco harness bar in a 350Z:

https://my350z.com/forum/body-interi...na-nissan.html


from thread https://my350z.com/forum/media-share...ld-thread.html

Stack

Right... that's the one I thought it was. And in this one's case, I have no problem with the bar itself... it's more in how and where it's mounted.

I still want to see some shots of the bar with stock seats ... maybe even shots with someone sitting in the car, with helmet on.

The other thing that concerns me about the bar is the lack of support struts. Since it's a bent bar, it is conceivable that the force of an impact could cause enough force to rotate the bar on it's mounting point. That's why I'd like to see how it's mounted as well.

My favorite part of that car's build is the $3000 worth of seats, but no anti-sub straps

Z3305

Here you go, Stack--Harness bar mounting points, lap belt mounting points and me.