N80

That brings up a whole other issue. Any passenger in my car would be an instructor. Should I duplicate anything that I do (race seat, harness, etc) for the instructor also? I know it would be nice, but is it one of those things that you really just ought to do? Of course the instructor could choose to use the 3 pt instead of the harness if he preferred it that way.

When I rode in my instructor's vette there was a harness bar but no harness for the passenger...it might have been there but it was not in the seat...so I used the 3 pt.

91rs13

The Clubs I run with require Equal restraints on the passenger side for the instructor. Seats are a gray area with some of those clubs. My primary club does not really like 4 pt harnesses, so we require a factory 3 pt if they have a 4 pt. If 5 or 6 pt, factory 3 pt not required.

General theory is the instructor should be as safe as the driver. My car has harnesses on both sides.

Check the rules for the clubs you plan to run with.

mhoward1

Most organizations require equal restraints. Part of it is to keep the student in check as well for the safety of the instructor.

dnguyent

iTrader: (5)

Same goes with instructors driving students; equal levels of safety. I have a race bucket, but only use a 3 pt with with a student or another instructor on the passenger seat. BTW, 3 pt. systems don't work all that well with full containment bucket seats because of the raised side bolsters, so as a driver, I'm the one making the big safety compromise. As a result, I drive conservatively when I have a passenger.

I don't wear H&N restraint when instructing, so I do not get into cars that only have 4/5/6 pt harnesses at the passenger side. I got into a rented spec miata once, as an instructor, and the operator had installed some crappy 4pt belt system on the passenger seat that didn't have retaining slots for the shoulder harness. During the session, the shoulder harness would just fall off my shoulder, and I thought..."this f&**^ sucks". I got angry at myself for getting into a car that had insufficient safety system. I ended up telling the driver to slow down the whole time because I didn't want to risk severe injury or death. So, now, I'm careful to inspect the car's restraint system before I enter it.

I'm glad the OP is asking these very important questions. IMO, I would definitely leave the 3 pt. belts in place on both driver and passenger sides. When you have an instructor (or any other passenger), then use the 3 pt. system.

SE5spd

iTrader: (17)

what is a H&N system?

91rs13

H&N = Head and Neck Restraint. aka HANS, Defnder, Issac, Hutchins R3 Etc etc etc.

SE5spd

iTrader: (17)

Oh. OT ? but dont you needs a "HANS approved seat" to run a HANS?

mhoward1

It's recommended, but not required.

dnguyent

iTrader: (5)

oops "OP"

zackbest

im not sure but this might be my first post. i have been trolling here for a good while but I'm currently deployed so this takes up a lot of my little free time these days. i was a firefighter before i joined the military and have first hand responded to a significant amount of rollover incidents in which the roof collapsed. its my experience that you are more likely to have the roof hit you than not in a roll over on the street. the normal human beings natural reaction in a situation that causes fear is to turn right. we constantly go right in life so this is how we naturally react. this causes the a lot of the force to impact the drivers side of the roof. I'm not a scientist. this is just what i have seen. I'm not much for posting on forums but i feel my experience was worth sharing since its a safety matter.

reserved

iTrader: (18)

My favorite group to run with Their event at VIR in September was one of the best weekends I have spent at a race track. What a great time!!!!!!

Stack

As was mentioned... you won't find any published empirical evidence regarding pros/cons of harness bar use vs stock belt use vs harnesses use vs hans use... etc etc. There are simply too many variables (i.e. no "control" incidents with which to compare.) So anecdotal evidence, common sense, and experience is all we've got for the most part.

Before I give any recommendation on the subject, I usually ask these questions:

1) What's your experience level?
2) What kind of car? (obviously, here it's assumed 350z)
3) What kind of tires? (i.e. street tires or r-compound tires or race slicks)

I ask these questions because I think the decision depends a lot on the answers.

But it boils down to this: If you're still learning ... if you're typically going to be driving in any instructed DE run group (beginner, intermediate, or advanced), then I'd discourage the use of competition tires and harnesses.

If you aren't running harnesses, you don't need a harness bar anyway.
If you aren't running competition tires... and you're being thrown about the car, having a hard time maintaining control... then you should be looking at becoming a smoother driver before looking to upgrade anything... especially when you're talking about a compromise of a safety system (which is what a harness bar is.)

It is definitely one of those things that ought to be done... and most DE organizations require it. All it takes is a bit of reflection on the situation you might find yourself in if the unthinkable were to happen; if your passenger were to be injured more severely than you in the event of an incident involving a crash.

One can rationalize taking personal risk... but it becomes much harder to rationalize cost savings or compromises when it involves other people.

betamotorsports

iTrader: (1)

As an instructor I greatly appreciate seeing a student who takes my safety as seriously as his own. I have refused to instruct in a car where the passenger seat is loose and it only had a lap belt (old 240Z) while the driver had a new Sparco seat and a Scroth harness.

N80

Experience is very low. Five track days all at the same track. Car is stock. Street tires.

That's why I'm seeking opinions. I've had more than one instructor recommend harnesses for DE. So it takes a bit of research to make a good informed decision. I have experienced drivers who use harness bars saying it is a good idea and I have other experienced drivers saying it creates a death trap. Hard to balance all that out.

I'm sure I'm not as smooth on the track as I need to be, and I would not say that I'm having trouble maintaining control. I drive at CMP, which you are probably familiar with. In the carousel, in 11, in 12-13 I have to brace with a knee to during the turn. It has been suggested to me by many drivers that not having to do that will help with car control. A CG-Lock does help some but not completely.

But, for me, right now, the advice to get deeper, racing type seats that will work with the 3 pt system plus the CG-Lock is probably the way to go.....if I do anything at all.

I have no problem providing like protection for both driver and passenger. It will, of course, impact budget constraints. But if I can't do it for both, I won't do it for either.

I appreciate all the good advice.

Stack

Good! Keep it that way as long as you can

Here's my opinion: harnesses ARE a good idea. The problem is, that to install harnesses properly, you need other stuff:

1. Strong mounting points... usually requiring drilling through the floor pan... for lap belts and anti-submarine belt(s).
2. Stronger mounting points for shoulder harnesses... and what most people don't realize is that a harness bar is NOT of sufficient strength to use as a mounting location.
3. Proper angle of the shoulder belts and other belts

So while yes... being held in place and being able apply more energy to driving (as opposed to holding yourself in place) is certainly beneficial, you have to weigh the risks of a compromised safety system if you can't have ALL of the above.

As far as the "death trap" description... I've probably been guilty of that myself, and I'll simply say to look at how it's mounted. There are very few out there made with the proper angles of the harnesses in mind, and even fewer with consideration for reclining stock seats. Don't just think about head-on impacts. Also consider a rear-ward impact where there's potential for the seat back to fail, and how/where the headrest/head might impact the harness bar in those situations.

I agree completely... and of course, without being in the car with you, anything I say regarding your driving style is pure speculation. One thing that might help more than you might think... if you've got leather seats, get some nubbly tool drawer liner and sit on it when you go on track. You'd be surprised how much it helps (in addition to the CG-Lock.)

And yes... I know and love CMP... it was my first

My only issue with going that route is this: If you're planning, or even thinking about eventually installing a roll bar, seats, harnesses, etc... consider that what you use now, might not be usable once you upgrade the rest of the safety system.

And whatever you do... until you can install a true safety system with roll bar with seats & harnesses... do NOT remove the airbags.

Lastly... I'd be remiss if I didn't mention my Tryptophan Recovery Plan event at VIR November 25th & 26th

http://msreg.us/2012TRP

N80

I'm pretty much convinced that now is not the time for a harness bar...if ever. But here is the one I was looking at. Claims to be SCCA and NASA approved but I have no idea what that means. In addition to attaching to the shoulder belt mounting points it also mounts to anchors in the rear hatch area. The bar is well below shoulder height for proper harness height. It also _looks_ quite beefy and unlikely to distort in impact....but that may not be true. It is not cheap.

http://www.enjukuracing.com/products...SSAN-350Z.html

terrasmak

iTrader: (8)

4 point Kirk rollbar is only $50 more

Stack

First time I've seen that one... and as far as harness bars go, that's looks like a good one... but again... it's a compromise (and an expensive one!) that, in my opinion, drivers still learning the fundamentals should not make.

The way I see it, there are inherent "protections" when drivers wait on upgrading to things like competition tires, seats, and harnesses. You "know" sooner as you approach the limit because the signals are amplified by the momentum your body builds up and releases as you shift around in the car. Learning these signals, and anticipating them, and having the time to learn to deal with them is an integral part of learning proper driving technique.

You can certainly learn the same things by "strapping in" sooner... but the learning curve is much greater, and the ability to recognize and recover from crisis situations is diminished if you don't already have the experience of recognizing it.

So the long and short of it is: wait until you can afford a whole safety system, then progress up the tire ladder... or wait until you've got 15 or so events under your belt and can easily anticipate and recovery from most normal crisis situations... or when you've got enough experience and knowledge to understand the risks involved in using a compromised safety system (and even then, it'd still need to be one that would pass a safety inspection.)

... and we haven't even talked about what to do or not to do with or without and anti-submarine belt equipped harness

N80

I've looked at those. The upside to the roll bar is obvious. The downside includes more significant modification of the interior. And 'they' (whoever 'they' are) say that you should not use a roll bar in a DD because of the potential for head injury if you hit the bar. IDK. The Kirk that I researched is also a bolt-in. Don't know if that is an issue or not.

betamotorsports

iTrader: (1)

True for a roll CAGE, not try for a roll bar. Lots of people confuse a roll bar with a roll cage.