Beta gave some of the best advice so far; get an instructor in the car. Seat time is great, but quality seat time is 100X better. It doesn’t have to be a high end school like Skip Barber. Here is a little secret of the trade. Many times the local HPDE/Club group has the same instructors as the Skip Barbers of the world. They are the same price as lap days at a DE, and having someone actually in the car telling you what is actually going on and how to respond is a huge resource to be taken advantage of. For someone trying to learn this on their own, it it’s like a first grade learning microphysics. Sure, you know how to read and have access to the library, but having teachers along the way sure makes things easier and a heck of a lot faster to get to the goal. May guys let their ego’s get in the way, but here’s another little secret, even the pro’s have driving coaches just like football players and such. One of my friends is a coach to some of the best drivers in the world.

Bottom line, for the same price and effort as a standard non-instructor DE, you could have someone in the car. If anyplace offers it as an option, take it. Just having someone in the car to help you see and feel things you might not otherwise is a huge benefit. This is not directed at you OP only, but everyone, including myself. Having people like Mike Skeen, Tom Long, Peter Krause, and others of this caliber in the car or on the radio for the price of a DE…it should be a no brainer.

I cannot get the video to load here, but I will take a look at it later.

Edit - Watched the video.


Without being actually there here is my guess. One, you were going into most turns off power or neutral throttle. Not an evil thing, but not the best either unless you are trying to get the car to rotate. On the spin itself, once it started you were heavy footed with the on and off throttle. The rear never got a chance to balance out. Once you did the big lift when it started was pretty much a loss on trying to save it. All the weight transferred to the front with nothing left at the rear. Then the heavy back on throttle once the car was sideways just accelerated the spin even more.

There is no one answer on how to save it, and sometime the best option is not to, but to look for a clean exit. On this example though I think with the wet conditions and such a steady throttle with a quicker but smooth counter would have been a good option.

 

Marty nailed it IMO. Looks like the track was pretty slick, you rolled off and then back on the throttle just a teeny bit too aggressively which stepped the rear out a little, and your reaction was late and abrupt. Not by much, but everything is magnified in the rain. In this instance, more throttle is definitely the wrong move: blipping it (as it sounds like you were doing) is never going to help. Hard to say without being in the car, but likely a lightening of throttle pressure (not pulling your foot all the way off of it, because that creates engine braking forces on the rear wheels, which would just exacerbate the problem) and a quick but smooth bit of countersteer immediately would have saved it. I've always told my students that a sudden opposite reaction creates more trouble than you started with; first try doing LESS of whatever it was you were doing that started the loss of traction, which in many cases just means lightening up on the throttle, or the brake, or opening up the steering angle just a bit. And try to make your reactions QUICKLY BUT SMOOTHLY.

Like I say it's hard to tell exactly from a video, but that's my $.02.

 

I really appreciate your advice Howard! I never thought about the weight transfer, but it seems my movement actually made my slide even worse. When car started to slide, I countersteer a bit (I hesitated because I was afraid to countersteer too much and the car would wiggle back and force that I did before in the same spot on the dry road) and lift the throttle, when the car started to spin, I put on the gas which pushed the car to spin…

Just moved from DE1 to DE2, because too much new guys in DE1. I will request an instructor with me moving forward!

 

If possible, I suggest you get an instructor in your car for every DE session for the next year. You're there to learn and take advantage of any free instruction you can get. Also, ride in instructor cars in the fast group - doesn't matter what car. Bribery helps a lot to get a passenger seat in the Red group.

 

[QUOTE=BPRacer;10190158]I've always told my students that a sudden opposite reaction creates more trouble than you started with; first try doing LESS of whatever it was you were doing that started the loss of traction, which in many cases just means lightening up on the throttle, or the brake, or opening up the steering angle just a bit. And try to make your reactions QUICKLY BUT SMOOTHLY.QUOTE]

Assume I countersteered quickly and recovered the car from slide to the right, however I am not confidence at all the car wouldn’t slide to the left or wiggle back and force. e.g. If I the car recovered and the front starts to move from right to left, when is the right time to steer back from countersteer? (once upon I feel the front stops sliding to the right?) & what would you suggest to do on the padel?

 

Will do.

 

Thanks! Finally know when is the right time to give gas.

Not sure if I understand but sounds will help me alot, would you mind to explain a little more?

 

Here is another spin and hit I did 2 months ago (NJMP lightning turn 1), I want to put it as lesson and learn.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNTc1MDY0OTc2.html
The reason to slide: entered the corner too early and too fast, I straighten the steering after left wheels off the track.
The reason to spin: countersteer too little and heavy brake.

Action may save the car: Quick and smooth countersteer (1.5 steering wheel turn?) with no brake or gas. Adequate gas once upon the car stop sliding to the right and start swing back to straight?

Not sure if I missed anything else, many thanks if you can give comments to help me grow.

 

I think your spin started happening at the apex even if you can't notice on the video, with that kind of hill on the corner and downhill on the exit the rear gets super light, you should of had your steering wheel straight coming out of the turn, you were still turning, sometimes on corners like that you just counter steer automatically just to avoid that rear getting sideways because of the weight transfer. The throttle definitely made it worse, my advice is you should of kept steering straight coming out of it.

 

[QUOTE=swat518;10190210]Countersteer is simply steering where you want the car to go, regardless of whatever slip angle you might be at. So you're steering the car down the track in the desired direction of travel, the tail comes around, you still want to be steering towards where you WANT the car to go, so you increase steering input. As the car (hopefully) begins to straighten, your steering input will lessen accordingly, still pointing the front wheels towards the desired direction. Think of it that way, and you won't have to worry about when, because the answer is "always"! Does that make sense?

Generally you can use the throttle (by applying or by lifting) to transfer weight to each end to compensate for a slide. But with such slippery conditions it's hard to transfer much with the throttle- a little too much brings on wheelspin (such as you experienced) and too quick a lift may induce engine braking sufficient to start the rear wheels sliding, almost as if you had used the handbrake to initiate a spin or a drift. So it becomes a very gentle dance on the pedals, with much smaller and smoother degrees of pedal input. And being "on line" on a race track, with lots of rubber laid down on the pavement being made slippery by the rain, certainly requires a lot of finesse!

 

Thanks for your advice! The tires were screaming at Apex but I think not to the limits. Since I turned in too early and too fast, there is no way for me to slow down at the turn and I realized I would went off the track, so I was trying to steer back as much as possible before going out of the track because I was facing way too out.

 

Absolutely, I have to familiar where the wheels point to with how much of steering wheel input.

I never thought about the engine brake by lifting gas too quick, thanks to bring this up!

 

Lots of great reply's. We are from the same area, maybe we have been to similar events?
I too enjoy a good book and theory discussion BUT If you are looking for some IN CAR ways to practice overseer control. Check out this event by BMWCCA in sept.

http://www.motorsportreg.com/index.c...D#.UgFbG21BJmo

You get ALOT of skid pad practice. Very valuable. Worth the drive for sure. Hope to see you there.

 

Now that i read what i actually wrote ) i meant keep it straight and turn right again, turn in once->bring it back for a moment once u feel that your rear is set-> turn right again. hope that makes more sense!

 

I can relate your problem with some of my early racing experiences. An intructor will make a huge difference.

Heres what you can do in the meantime, try doing some go karting, get in when the track is empty.

The Z is very different than a gokart but this will clear your basics and it will help sharpen your steering reflexes. Find out how close you are to the track record and you can approach marshalls to get some more advice. Also its a very cheap way to hone your skills.

Many may think gokarting is for kids, but not everyone beats the track times.

Keep us posted on your progress.

 

That dvd has some great techniques, its a must see, I saw it few years ago and it helped me a lot

 

[QUOTE=Blurvision;10190469]
http://www.motorsportreg.com/index.c...D#.UgFbG21BJmo
QUOTE]

I dont see the registration for NJ skid pad?

 

Find this clip post by a race driver attended the same event on last Saturday. Good to learn.

 

This ^

OP I learned to drive when i started karting at 9, its a very good way to learn basic race strategy, car control, driving techniques, and learning turn apexes and exiting, very good way to hone your skills see if you can find a track with karts that go up to 50mph, these carts will give you the best learning and practicing opportunity.

When im not on the track, im at the go kart track.

 

[QUOTE=swat518;10191246]Skid pad is included in the normal HPDE program for that weekend, no separate registration required.