I've used XP10s on front and XP8s on rear for a few years. Recently went up to XP12s on the front and XP10s on the rear as recommended by Carbotech for increased pad life. Absolutely amazing combo. Shortened my braking distances significantly. (07 Enthusiast, stock non-Brembo caplipers, Hankook RS-3s).

I did a weekend at VIR and the pads looked like new after the event. I did a three day event this weekend at CMP (2.3 mile, tight track with lots of hard braking) and the pads did not last through the event. The brakes got incredibly hot, smoking after my fastest session, well over 500 degrees after a cool down lap.

The heat and the pad life were not ideal but that was not the biggest problem. The problem is that half way through the weekend the pads began to deposit material on the rotors causing a great deal of vibration under braking. You can see it and feel it, mid rotor. Changed rotors and it helped but got worse again after just a few sessions. Skipped the last session yesterday due to wear and vibration.

There are not many decent pad options for oem-non Brembo set ups. Does anyone know what this buildup on the rotors was and how I can avoid it in the future? (It also happened with the XP10s but not as bad.)

 

For NON brembo? No personal exp with those.
But you would think a more aggressive compound combined with the ability to break even later would put a ton more heat into the system? Once the pad goes out of its operating rage, weird stuff can happen.

Just FYI. I have had the exact opposite experience with hawk, caused me massive vibrations once the pads got lowish. Carbotech for me (brembo) seem to work better.

 

I had the same thing happen with my Track Edition and the 10/8 combo. I think it really started with not letting my brakes cool off enough before I parked the car between sessions. Supposedly (this is what I was told at a NASA event), when you park your car with hot brakes, the pads will kinda bake pad material on to your rotors making it feel like they are warped causing the vibration. I experimented and just had my rotors turned and that's when the pads REALLY started leaving residue on the rotors. I won't turn the rotors again, that's for sure. The brakes really went to crap. Making all sorts of noise and not doing their job very well AT ALL even though the pads look to have plenty of life in them.

From now on, I'm going to go even slower on my cool down lap and even cruise around the pits a little while before I park the car. Even move the car a foot or so after it's sat for a few minutes.

Other than cooling them more before parking it, I don't really have anything to add. The above is just what I've been told. I'm certainly no expert and would love to get some more experienced guys opinions.

Here's my rotors and pads.

 

I had Stoptech Front & Brembo Rear, started XP10/XP8 setup this year. had same vibration experience, I thought it's the rotor, so swapped stoptech to Brembo with new XP10 and new rotors, same thing happened after the 1st session, also had sign of overheat on rotors, I rebeded in the brakes in the 3rd session, the vibration went away.

Last Friday the wheel hub snapped, im changing back to Stoptech, I will re-bed in the brakes and see if the vibration can go away.

 

JBJ, that's pretty much what my rotors looked like too but a good bit worse of that same material. Not sure how turning the rotors would make it worse as long as you bed them in again properly.

I'm not sure about the cool down theory. The deposits on my rotors go all the way around, not just in one place. Proper cool down is a good thing and at this most recent event we only got a half lap of cool down rather than full lap like other organizations. I started backing down towards the end of the session but it did not seem to make a difference.

swat518, I'm not sure how re-bedding would help unless you had a new or newly turned rotor. But I agree that this probably is a heat issue. Which is a shame since the pads, rotors, calipers and brake fluid handled the heat perfectly from a performance standpoint. No fade whatsoever.

I will also say this, for a stock weight Z with Hankook RS-3s the Carbotech XP12/10 combo is just about perfect. I could take it right to the threshold of the antilock brakes at just the perfect point lap after lap. But, I've got to find a better solution than buying $350 worth of pads that only last a weekend no matter how well they perform. I'm not a racer and certainly not a pro so other than grins, passing the occasionally BMW and better lap times the better performance is fairly meaningless.

Of course the solution might involve staying away from Carolina Motorsports Park. I got almost no wear at VIR and then destroyed these pads at CMP. CMP is less than an hour from my house though.

 

Yeah. I don't know why either to be honest. But that's when they went to crap. I know the speed is coming up, so maybe I just need to get a better set up such as yourself. It's really frustrating for sure. My 10/8 combo made it nearly the whole summer. Probably 7 or 8 track days. The local race shop suggested I get slotted rotors to help, so I got some slotted Stoptechs. We'll have to see. Regardless, I'm glad you started this thread. At least I know I'm not alone.

 

This is par for Carbotechs, ive run xp8, 10 and 20. Never run their endurance compounds. They are an expensive pad to run considering their longevity.

Btw, had the same issue running xp20s on a wet day using RS3s. So easy to lock the wheels in the wet no amount of modulation could correct, eg brake earlier or abs. Eventually I developed a severe front end vibration due mostly to deposits on the pad. I say this because dry running a few sessions made the vibration much better, but I never really cleared it up until I changed rotors. It may have been my fault or a result of the conditions (water, rapid cooling, abs)...tomaato tomato

 

As those of us that know CMP, that track is murder on brakes. This sounds more like a cooling issue than a pad issue. They looked cooked. I think we have talked about this before and you were, but are you running any ducting to the pads?

 

No ducts. Probably time to consider that. No off-the-shelf brake duct solutions for 350z so will have to fabricate.

I guess what surprises me is that Carbotech seemed to think that these grippier pads (12/10 combo) would last longer than the 10/8 combo. They lasted about the same as the 10/8 combo but messed up the rotors worse as mentioned. So, higher friction, plus hard and frequent braking at CMP without time to cool down between corners (unlike at VIR) is just a bad combo for these brakes.

Brake ducts is one option, or just go to CMP less and VIR more is another.

I will try some other pads if I can find them. Not many options for oem calipers. Porterfield R-4 pads are a posible option but cost more and grip less. But if they last longer at CMP they would be worth it.

 

you can always try braking less..

 

That's no fun. (But it is a good point actually. Smarter braking can make a big difference in pad life and lap times.)

And these pads were fun while they lasted. I was braking at the tower on the front stretch at CMP. I know that doesn't sound all that impressive but for me it was pretty good. Performance is addicting.

 

Like!!

 

Can you get Hawk DTC 60s for the stock calipers? I'm a fan of Carbotech but switched to Hawk DTC60s due to price. They were much less money and worked really well. You can run them front and rear or even run DTC 30s in the rear if you want a little less rear bias.

It does sound like the issue is heat related so ducting could help.

 

No Hawk racing pads for non-Brembo set up. That is the limiting factor in pad selection. Plenty of other options for the Brembos. Used Brembo sets are selling for $1000 on eBay.

Might be worth it. Especially since my current calipers need rebuilding. One of the dust boots has a tiny hole in it. Of course, the calipers on a used set of Brembos might need rebuilding too.

 

I've been running time trials for 3 years in various car and done tons of DE's prior to that with my Z. I've always come back around to the Carbotech pads. I'm currently running XP20's which basically require a DOT R-comp or stickier but I had good luck with the XP 16's when they still made them on RS3's and other comparable tires. I haven't had the issues you're mentioning but I'm also running ducted Stop Tech ST40/22 on 13" rotors. My guess the issue you're seeing is due to heat. Adding ducting, even crappy ducting will help and increase pad life. A good cool down lap can help but by that point you've already hit your max temps so whatever damage is going to be done is already done. The key is to either drop the max temps you're seeing or have the hardware to deal with it.

Mhoward1 joked about using the brakes less, but he is correct to some degree (no pun intended). In my experience novice drivers tend to over brake for most high speed entry corners and sometimes braking at 100% as deep as possible is not always the fastest either. I can think of 2 track right off the top of my head where we've seen faster times by applying something like 80% brake 50 ft earlier yields better entry and exit speeds. This is all driver dependent but none the less, food for thought.

Good luck!

 

Hawk DTC 60s for the non brembo calipers. http://www.hawkpadsdirect.com/Hawk-H....564.6165f.htm

http://www.hawkpadsdirect.com/Hawk-H....559.6166r.htm

 

I run the DTC 60s on my 240sx that doesn't have ABS. They have a great feel to them, easy to modulate.

 

As I said above, I went probably 7 or 8 track days on my Carbotechs. Granted I've never driven a track car without Brembo brakes. That being said, if you're burning through pads every weekend and other guys are getting the same kind of longevity as I am with the Brembos, it might be cheaper in the long run just to get the Brembos.

I gotta get some vents though.

QTB, I was checking your car out at Hastings this summer. Love the sound.

 

This is definitely true and was definitely a problem form me when I was first learning this particular track. But, I got that sorted out a few years ago and things got a bit better. Maybe with all the grip from these pads and different braking points I picked up some bad habits again. Definitely possible.

 

Interesting. When I enter my car on the Hawk website it does not list these pads as compatible. But, the Hawk website isn't all that great. Thanks for finding these. I doubt they'll grip anything like the Carbotechs but they are a good bit cheaper so I will probably try them at some point.