EnthuZ

iTrader: (2)

Shipping weight is 16 pounds. So, without the box, I'd say 15.350 lbs.

Could have been lighter, but I chose .120 wall tube instead of .090. Stronger is better!

EnthuZ

iTrader: (2)

I still have a few bars left.

BTW, here is a preview of my upcoming website: www.BCRLtd.net

phile

So this harness bar without a rollbar is considered unsafe if the car rolls? Is this because the harness keeps you perfectly in place, whereas the stock belt alows you to move around?

Please elaborate.

EnthuZ

iTrader: (2)

The BCR harness bar is NOT a replacement or substitute for a roll bar. It will not prevent the roof from potentially collapsing. It will reduce the possibility of the "B" pillars compressing inward.

When used with properly installed competition belts, it will keep the driver in place and reduce/prevent injuries to flailing extremities.

phile

I realize that a harness bar has nothing to do with keeping the roof from collapsing. What I want to know specifically is WHY a harness bar is more unsafe without a rollbar.

A few people have posted in this thread speaking as though rolling the car without a harness is more safe than rolling the car with a harness bar.

Commasense said: "EnthuZ: Don't forget to wear your Nomex suit to protect yourself from all the heat you'll get from the people who say that using harnesses without a rollbar/cage is suicidal. I put up with it for a year, but just couldn't take it anymore. "

So i'm assuming that since a harness keeps you in place better than regular seat belts, that if the car rolls, your neck will most assuredly get broken, right?

EnthuZ

iTrader: (2)

I'll be brief. I'm leaving on vacation culminating at a HPDE at Mid-Ohio, in a few hours. I made an educated choice to use a harness bar. You might chose differently.

There is a post on www.350ZMotoring.com that addresses your concerns. Please do the search as I do not have the time currently to do it for you.

BTW, I would not drive in a car with the belt set-up that Commasense uses. And we use the same belts!

phile

couldn't find the post on the other forum.

Redline350Z

It took me about five minutes to find it using the search word "harness".

http://www.350zmotoring.com/forums/s...hlight=harness

phile

I did that same search and I didn't see that thread smartass. :P

Anyways, all the information int hat post was useful. I'm going to research the subject more, but the harness bar seems like a safe idea. Judging from the pics the quality of ENthuz's harness bar is far superior to others. Good job.

zillinois

iTrader: (6)

Redline350z a smartas*! No way.

commasense

I can only think that Enthuz has forgotten that I now have a full roll bar, and did when we met back in April at Mid-Ohio. Otherwise I don't know why he would be trashing me. And I guess I won't find out until he gets back from his vacation.

If his claim is that a harness bar without a roll bar is safer than the custom harness mounting I had, also without a roll bar, I disagree. Unless he can provide a cite or further explanation, I think they are pretty much equivalent.

Redline350Z

Sorry about the smartassery... I couldn't resist.

James, I believe the issue EnthuZ has with your belts is the angle from your shoulder to the mount point for the shoulder harnesses. Your belts are mounted quite a bit lower than shoulder height. The harnesses are supposed to be mounted as close to horizontally behind shoulder height as possible, although Schroth's instructions suggest that up to a 20 degree down angle from the top of shoulder to the end of the belt is still acceptable if you don't use a HANS device. It is hard to tell what the angle from your shoulder to the belt mount point is, but it's definitely not horizontal, and looks like it might be borderline.

Let's see if I can attach the diagram from Schroth's manual here:

phile

Since I'm short, would that mean I would have to tilt the seat back to make the strap horizontal?

Anyhow, the main question I was getting at above was an issue of safety. I realize the driving benefit of using a harness. But as a matter of safety I want to know if the car is safer with the harness bar and harnesses, or is it safer stock? Because if it is safer in stock form, the driving benefits would not be a factor in my purchase.

phile

I just realized that made no sense. Lemme re-ask that first sentence. What do you do if you're short and the harness straps aren't horizontal?

commasense

Okay, if that's what he was talking about, it's still not a problem in my install for two reasons. One is that, although my mounting bolts are on the rear deck well below shoulder height, the belts pass up over the divider behind the seats, so that from my shoulders back to the divider the belts are virtually horizontal. They're like harness bar installs that use a back seat belt mounting point: flat over the shoulders to the bar, then down to the mounting. My installer, Mitch Piper, builds race cars for a living and thought it was okay, and I trust him.

Second is that, if I weren't confident in the present installation, I could strap the shoulder harnesses around a horizontal member of my roll bar, which is what John has done. I haven't, because I don't want to keep the harnesses in place full time. I keep them in my track bag and only install them when I'm at the track. I think this lengthens their life, since they aren't constantly exposed to light and heat.

EnthuZ

iTrader: (2)

Dax, thank you VERY much for linking the EXACT thread I was referring to!

I'm back from a "Tail of the Dragon" run, a few (150) miles of the "Blue Ridge Parkway" and a HPDE at Mid-Ohio.

As to my questioning James mounting, I have 3 issues.

1) Mounting the "Anti Sub" straps to the front seat track bolts has been recommended to me as being less than the optimum set-up, as IF the seat becomes dislodged, the sub straps also become dislodged........separate mounting has been recommended to me.

2) Attaching the sub straps forward of the hip/crotch is also not recommended, as one's torso could still move forward, sliding under the belts, which defeats the purpose of anti-sub straps.

3) Not using the existing bar of your roll bar to mount your shoulder belts seems to defeat the purpose of a very nice roll bar. My fear is that your mounting wouldn't prevent spinal compression.

I never said my harness bar would be safer in a rollover......but in a forward impact, I believe my system would be safer.

I put a LOT of research into my restraint system, and I only wish everyone the safest possible mounting of their system. Sadly, I have seen way too many improperly mounted harnesses. Unfortunately, most sanctioning bodies don't give a hoot! I'm just trying to share the knowledge I have gained over the past year of research.

BTW, I'm about to announce availability of a better harness than my Schroth.

EnthuZ

iTrader: (2)

phile,

I just completed a HPDE with classroom instruction, and the experienced instructor, with 20 + years of track experience, STRONGLY recommended a competition harness belt system, so the driver is held to the seat by the belts, not forcing the driver to brace his hands on the steering wheel for support. Let the belts hold the driver.......don't force the driver to brace for racing loads on the steering wheel.


Heck, that's why I designed my harness bar!

phile

I'm starting autocross (late in the season unfortunately). I went with my buddy today in his EVO8, and noticed the course was not really difficult or dangerous at all. Most people stay in 2nd gear the whole time, so no hell-toe necessary. Matter of fact the people recommended that novices get their braking done before the turn rather than turning and braking at the same time :P.

Anyhow, I'm exploring future mod options for my Z, and was considering the harness bar (Along with new rims/track tires/brake upgade) because it looks like top quailty. After today though, I think that would be overkill if I only plan to autocross. I live in CNY, and the auto-x club we ran with today uses SCCA rules. Would you still recommend the harness bar, or would you say it's more suited for road races? Most people just used regular seatelts. All the courses they make are similar, and one of the head guys said he barely ever gets out of 2nd gear on most of the auto-x courses he has run. Thanks for the replies.

commasense

IMO, harnesses would be more useful for control than safety in autocrossing situations. You just aren't as likely to have a heavy impact or roll over in AX as in HPDE.

If you decide not to go with harnesses (I'm not trying to do Enthuz out of a sale!), one trick I learned in my brief autocross career is to use your stock belt, but give it two or three twists before snapping the buckle in so the belt doesn't slide through the buckle part anymore. That way your lap belt is holding you snug in the seat. The tensioner is still letting your shoulders move, but it helps a bit. It takes a little experimenting to figure out how and where to twist so you get a good snug fit. Better than nothing.

EnthuZ

iTrader: (2)

I have to agree with James. A full harness might be overkill at this point. A couple instructors I had last year, before I installed my harnesses, did the twisted belt trick.

But when you find yourself still moving around too much in the seat, then consider my harness bar and some competition belts.

I am selling a complete package now, with Impact Racing 6 point cam latch competition belts with ALL hardware.

www.BCRLtd.net