DZeckhausen

You're correct about the variation in different applications. What determines if a wheel will fit over a particular brake kit is not limited to the physical dimensions of the caliper. It also depends on how the entire kit was designed. The rotor hat determines the plane of the rotor. If StopTech's hat positions the rotor further outboard by several millimeters, then their bracket will have to be designed to position the caliper further outboard so it remains centered about the rotor. My guess is this is what happened with the Audi design.

Where exactly did the interference occur? StopTech has a number of different caliper "face cuts" for specific applications. For example, the E39 M5 application has a slight dip at the outer edge to accomodate the dip in the factory wheels where they become narrower in the barrel.

Here's what I had to do to a set of Brembo calipers in order to make them fit under the 17" Style 66M wheels on a BMW 540i:


Please do not try this at home, kids!



Note the use of a 5mm spacer in addition to the 45 angle I ground into the leading and trailing outboard edges. The StopTech caliper has the 45 angle on all their calipers. And the M5 application uses a cut that dips the face a couple millimeteres at the top outboard side. So it fits under the same wheels without any spacers or modifications.

What I don't know is what would happen if I bolted a StopTech caliper to the Brembo mounting brackets for this specific application. The caliper shares mounting dimensions with Brembo and can thus be swapped into any Brembo system (and vise versa). If I do that experiment, that will tell us if the fitment, in the E39 case, was due to caliper dimensions or mounting bracket/hat dimensions. I suspect it's the caliper shape because the lower ball joint doesn't give you very much room to maneuver the rotor placement. But I may do this swap just for fun.

To make it clear, the issue was not the Brembo caliper hitting the back of the spokes on the BMW wheel. There was a ton of clearance there. The issue was hitting the inside barrel of the wheel where it dips down at the outboard edge.

Where did your wheels contact the calipers on your friend's car?

To answer the original question, I'm selling both because I like them both. StopTech does have fantastic support, as is typical of a small company. But Race Technologies, my Brembo wholesaler, is positioned between me and Brembo and has also provided customer support that is outstanding.

Problems? The most common problem I see is vibration following a track event. This is equally common with both kits and seems to result from the selection of improper pads, improper bedding technique, or hard braking at a track event without warming up the brakes first. Pagid Orange pads seem to cause the most trouble, although they have a loyal following and are wonderful when used properly. Performance Friction 01 pads have been perfect, with no complaints of vibration ever. (It figures these are the most expensive pads!) Both companies have sent me kits with a wrong part included. Both have gone to extraordinary lengths to get the right parts into my hands overnight, even on a holiday weekend.

Kit selection comes down to budget, intended use, and wheel selection. As you've seen, sometimes the Brembo kit fits an application and a specific set of wheels while the StopTech does not. And sometimes the reverse is true. In the M5 world, the StopTech 4-wheel kit fits under factory M5 wheels in front with no spacers, but doesn't come close to fitting the factory rear. The Brembo fits with a 5mm spacer in the front and needs about 3mm of spacer in back.

Most of my customers who get front-only kits choose StopTech because of their emphasis on balance with the factory stock rear brakes. Of my 4-wheel kit customers, it seems to go more toward Brembo, partly because of my customer demographics (high-end cars) and partly because folks who get 4-wheel brake kits are doing it more for looks than performance and want the biggest, baddest, most expensive kit they can get. For those folks, I've been selling lots of the 8-piston Brembo kits with 380mm x 34mm front rotors!

These are sweeping generalizations that vary per car brand and model and even within a particular model, they don't always apply. I spend a long time with my brake customers, trying to understand exactly what they are trying to accomplish and properly setting their expectations for each solution. Sometimes I talk people OUT of buying a big brake kit and, instead, set them up with track pads, racing brake fluid, air ducts, and stainless braided Teflon lines. If they are just starting to do track events and only going to 4 to 6 events a year, it can take a couple years before they reach the point where they need a big brake kit in order to continue having fun at the track. Again, this depends on the car and the individual.

Vivid Racing

iTrader: (67)

Personally, I'm a big fan of StopTech. I've used them on my WRX and we are currently running them on our Project EVO. The EVO came with the Brembos as well. I can't say enough about them. StopTech is a great company that puts tons of time into R&D and track testing. The four wheel kit is whare it's at. We sell them if your looking for more info.

ihatethatbobbarker

waht about mu. im planning on adding their rotors to my brembo calipers or amybe endless

Kansai

Just stumbled onto this thread. Both Brembo and Stoptech are great company!!!! I think bottom line is brand loyalty and what each company has achieved in motor sports.

DZeckhausen

I think that price, performance, product quality, wheel fitment, and aesthetics are more important factors than what a particular company has achieved in motor sports. If it doesn't fit your car, it doesn't matter what they've done in a particular racing venue!

I'm also not big on brand loyalty. Lack of brand loyalty is what keeps companies on their toes, constantly innovating and improving their products in order to retain customers.

comeherez

Check out www.zmibrakes.com

NEW Titanium Setup

Kansai

How well will the titanium rotor dissipate heat??? It looks like a solid rotor. What formulation of the brake pads are they using for the titanium rotors????

Very interesting!

Kansai

Well said!!!!! Totally agree with your option!

racin

iTrader: (1)

For some more info to digest about 350Z brakes, go to:
http://www.ntechengineering.com/inde...ction=projectz

We had the track model Brembos on the car, and this page tells the story of our findings and solutions thus far.

comeherez

Any pad can be used, however, the research and development of the system was done in cooperation with TMD friction and Mintex pads, therefore, these pads will perform the best. As far as heat dispersion, the rotors have what is called ACS or Active Cooling System, when the rotors heat up the slots fan out and create turbulent air which in turn cools the rotors down.

archman350z

Wow, great thread!

I've been a Brembo fan for a long time now. This is a company with an extensive history in the fastest motorsports on the planet. However, I do think there is room to improve. Will Stoptech be it? Who knows.

I still see Stoptech as a "green" company. (Which I think was apparent in SCC's "Z Thrash" article). But I have to give Bob a big thumbs-up for coming to this board and defending his company. I like that. A company with that kind of focus, dedication and direction will certainly go places....

Oh yeah, Bob, please give me my 2-pc rotors for the Track model...pretty please!

CanAmBob

I still see Stoptech as a "green" company. (Which I think was apparent in SCC's "Z Thrash" article).

archman350z

Archman if by green company you mean taking a risk that SCC readers may not digest the detailed report by the editor saying that the tires were severely used up and the car had way too much camber prior to the brake test, then I would agree. If by Green you meant we were weren't up to the task I disagree. We were given a couple of days to make the prototype kit. Further the editors told us there would be no time to compare like to like. That is we could not retest the car with the stock brakes. After the lateral G tests of the "thrash" supplied suspension the car had way more camber than stock so we had a reduced contact patch and what was available was torched. If SCC had put the stock brakes back on the car and tested the vehicle 60-0, the stock brakes would have been way worse than the file data. In all brake comparison tests the only objective way to make a comparison is with the same tires, same vehicle, same track, same temperatures, same driver, same test set up.

Tires and suspension can make a big difference in stopping distance.

The suspension company and the header company had the same limitations levied on us, no time to test and adjust.

The same SCC crew just tested a tricked out 350Z with a StopTech 4 wheel 350Z kit and reported 98 feet in the 60-0. We did have great street tires but the 98 feet beat prior stock brake tests with the same tires. Not sure when this article hits the news stands.

The engineering team at stock can hang with the best of the best in the brake world. We are the only after market brake upgrade company tuning the brake upgrades. The other companies don't have the range of caliper piston sizes available in their standard products to fine tune brake torque front and rear. I hoping they don't add this capability any time soon.

So my question to you is should we have passed on the opportunity to make the first after Market 350Z brake upgrade and get good magazine coverage knowing the results might be confusing?

Bob Lee
StopTech LLC

archman350z

Bob, I really like ya! Good call. I admit it has to be pretty tough to properly tune the only 350Z in the country (in less than a week) with excessive negative camber and smoked tires. I guess I should have realized there was a problem since the 1/4 mile times were down. But if I didn't catch it, then I'm sure many other people didn't either. Your question is a tough one, but I personally, would have passed. It just never works out good when you do that many modifications in a week. But then again, maybe the brake business is like Hollywood: no press is bad press.

(Then again, I am super critical of any aftermarket companies. Unfortunately, the tuner market is inundated with products that are crap and have no engineering behind them whatsoever. Fortunately, there are ways to distinguish such companies. I stick with the big names (Brembo, BBS, etc.) until I can find out if they're legit.)

The thing that got me particularly in this article was why your setup was so rear-biased initially. I expected you to come closer to the mark since you've had experience with the Skylines (which are roughly similar). Was this also a characteristic of the crappy tires?

I look forward to this article you speak of. I assume this is their project Z car? I am keeping a close eye on the project because my "buddy" Dave Coleman (a fellow engineer) is involved and there is a lot more time to tune. (He's been doing an awesome job on Project Silvia...that car is lethal!) I agree that this will be a much better test of your company's abilities.

I certainly wish you the best in the brake business. Who knows, maybe when I can finally afford my M5, it will be OEM'd with Stoptechs!

CanAmBob

Your question is a tough one, but I personally, would have passed. It just never works out good when you do that many modifications in a week. But then again, maybe the brake business is like Hollywood: no press is bad press.

Archman350Z for StopTech to get any negative technical press is not a good idea, so I agree with you. There was some risk because we only had one shot. Tuning as you know implies successive approximations. We also needed to decide if we wanted to disappoint SCC. This is a great magazine and we want to be tapped again if we have a similiar opportunity. In the future, I just may ask that the brakes get tested while there is some tire left.

If you are friends with staff at SCC then I am sure they will give you the run down.

This is Saturday and I don't have access to the original design data. The current designs were tested at Camarillo with Dave Zeckhausen present and we turned in spectacular results--soon to be confirmed by an independent source.

We are constantly asked to get the rears to do more work, but as an engineer you know there are limits. In the case of the 350Z, ABS complains if we try to shift work to the rear and the stopping distance is extended. This is the sort of thing that can't be predicted and must be determined thru on track testing as described in the attached article.

http://www.stoptech.com/docs/zeck350.htm

Then again, I am super critical of any aftermarket companies. Unfortunately, the tuner market is inundated with products that are crap and have no engineering behind them whatsoever. Fortunately, there are ways to distinguish such companies. I stick with the big names (Brembo, BBS, etc.) until I can find out if they're legit.)

Sometimes the smaller company is able to push the envelope. Prior to 1969 you could only buy modems from the phone company and they were dog slow. Then came the CarterPhone decision, outside competition and soon the fastest and best modems were made by tiny companies like Rixon and Milgo pushing the state of the art to 4800bps and beyond. These companies total sales couldn't have bought coffee for Mother Bell in those days. ( I have officially dated myself with this paragraph)

We are trying to make our mark. More people are aware of pad deposition since Carroll Smiths article and many more people are now seriously looking at balance as a check list issue since we got on our "Balanced brake upgrade" soapbox.

Thanks for listening

Bob Lee
StopTech LLC

archman350z

If you are friends with staff at SCC then I am sure they will give you the run down.
No, not really. Dave never returns my messages left at 3AM... We are "buddies" only by trade, not by association.

We are constantly asked to get the rears to do more work, but as an engineer you know there are limits. In the case of the 350Z, ABS complains if we try to shift work to the rear and the stopping distance is extended. This is the sort of thing that can't be predicted and must be determined thru on track testing as described in the attached article.
It seems that there is a market for ECU tuning related to body-electronics, huh? I work in this field. Someday when I stop blowing my money in race gas and tires, I'm going to tackle this problem. If the F1 guys can do it, then it can be done!

Great article! Those of you out there who have not read it, please click on the link above: this is how you perform brake testing. I have always been a big proponent of reading to learn something. I think many can learn a lot from this article.

We are trying to make our mark. More people are aware of pad deposition since Carroll Smiths article and many more people are now seriously looking at balance as a check list issue since we got on our "Balanced brake upgrade" soapbox.
Carroll Smith is a god in my eyes. He built rockets in the 60's and he can still build 'em to hang with the supercars of today. Isn't it amazing what happens when someone decides to not follow the "norm"?
I'm glad that your company is pushing this concept. The general public, unfortunately, is not aware of how such a "little" thing can make a huge difference. (I think the article forgets that the 350Z Track is still intended for the general public: I can guarantee you that Brembo/Nissan engineered that front brake bias into the car...same reason that it understeers; the corporate lawyers get nervous when a car becomes unpredictable, i.e. no longer goes in straight lines.)

Thanks for listening
Anytime, Bob. Keep on talking to anyone willing to listen. I think a lot of people can learn something from you. I did!

noel

iTrader: (1)

Guys,heared about "ROTORA'S"? 355mmx32mm front & rear w/6 pistons front & 4 pistons rear...That's what i'm waiting for...

350on19inchVolk

Great, Rotora???

Another Taiwanese company.

Is everyone infatuated with saving money regardless of quality?
80% of StopTechs sales are because people want to pay less than the cost of Brembo.
Now are 80% of Rotoras sales going to be because the cost is less than StopTech?

What I dont understand is that most people wont buy imitation wheels. People actually spend the money for Volk or Work or Racing Hart or BBS even HRE. Why do they buy immitation brakes?

I guess Rotora is a good thing though becuase it gives people a choice. You want the real deal buy Brembo. You want a cheap immitation go Rotora. Now people can compare Rotora, and see what they should be paying for Stoptech. Taiwanese wheels are half the price, shouldn't the brakes be as well?

noel

iTrader: (1)

The rotora big brake kit are actually the same price as the stoptech's..the only good thing bout rotora's,,they have 6 pistons front..stoptech,only 4 pistons..they go about $4,500....

CanAmBob

Another Taiwanese company350on19inchVolk

"There you go again" the data you are being feed by Race tech is flawed.

StopTech is not a Taiwanese company as you well know. The company is owned 100% by Americans and most of the key manufacturing is American, North American, or European.

We machine all hats, brackets, and calipers in Torrance California.
The pistons are made in Canada, the hardware is American. The seals are made in Denmark.

We have just entered into a long term partnership with Pilenga as our rotor supplier and they are producing our patent pending vane design. Pilenga is the second largest rotor manufacturer in Europe.

Most people buy the StopTech product because we have several innovations and offer technically superior products in the brake upgrade market.

1. We have a stronger caliper as a result of our patented bridge. We are twice as Stiff as the current F40 and F50 calipers used by the Brembo North American division and twice as stiff as any open top caliper we have tested.
2. Starting in June all our 4 piston calipers are made by the Squeeze Forge process
3. We have a superior patent pending vane design in our rotors that flows 10-30% more air than any competitive directional rotors we have tested and 40-70% more air flow that straight vane rotors
4. We have patent pending directional hats that have been proven to lower the outer rotor face temperatures as much as 70 degrees F.
5. We are the leaders in balanced brake upgrades. We offer more piston sizes than any company in the brake upgrade market.
6. We manufacture our own brake lines and test each line to 4500psi.

We have beat the top brake companies in key magazine tuner tests. See Car And Driver September 2002, Sport Compact Car Ultimate street car Challenge 2003.

I respect your brand loyalty to Brembo and they are a great company. On the 350Z we can beat them in 60-0 stopping distances with the same tires and same car.

You are on firmer ground attacking our company size and lack of Brand recognition but not on performance or quality.


Bob Lee
StopTech LLC

350on19inchVolk