On track Brake Failure. Pics.
11-10-2011, 11:58 AM
#23
did you check the seals prior to replacing the new pads in, how did you push the piston back in for the new pad?
sorry about your issues. +1 on the replies above for using a street pad in the track
suggest some airducting to cool off the front rotors if you do no wish to go with a larger front caliper and definitely use track orientated pads next time..
here is a nice read:
http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_artic...rake-fade.aspx
sorry about your issues. +1 on the replies above for using a street pad in the track
suggest some airducting to cool off the front rotors if you do no wish to go with a larger front caliper and definitely use track orientated pads next time..
here is a nice read:
http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_artic...rake-fade.aspx
11-10-2011, 12:17 PM
#24
The seals didn't look great but not terribe either.
I used a "c" clamp with the old brake pad method to push it in.
The caliper seems to work fine now.
But yes the street pad was a the best I could do last minute.
I think it is a case of trail braking into hard right hand turns over and over.
All the weight is on the front left side of the car.
Looking into caliper upgrades for over the winter.
Would like to spend money elsewhere to make my car faster instead of more reliable, but what are you going to do. In the end your life rides on brakes and tires
I used a "c" clamp with the old brake pad method to push it in.
The caliper seems to work fine now.
But yes the street pad was a the best I could do last minute.
I think it is a case of trail braking into hard right hand turns over and over.
All the weight is on the front left side of the car.
Looking into caliper upgrades for over the winter.
Would like to spend money elsewhere to make my car faster instead of more reliable, but what are you going to do. In the end your life rides on brakes and tires
11-10-2011, 12:36 PM
#25
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The seals didn't look great but not terribe either.
I used a "c" clamp with the old brake pad method to push it in.
The caliper seems to work fine now.
But yes the street pad was a the best I could do last minute.
I think it is a case of trail braking into hard right hand turns over and over.
All the weight is on the front left side of the car.
Looking into caliper upgrades for over the winter.
Would like to spend money elsewhere to make my car faster instead of more reliable, but what are you going to do. In the end your life rides on brakes and tires
I used a "c" clamp with the old brake pad method to push it in.
The caliper seems to work fine now.
But yes the street pad was a the best I could do last minute.
I think it is a case of trail braking into hard right hand turns over and over.
All the weight is on the front left side of the car.
Looking into caliper upgrades for over the winter.
Would like to spend money elsewhere to make my car faster instead of more reliable, but what are you going to do. In the end your life rides on brakes and tires
If your interested i'm about to take off my 06+ front dual piston calipers and brakes and putting back on my 03 ones.
11-10-2011, 04:14 PM
#26
I'm not a drifter, and the vid the OP posted is not drifting.. so not sure we are comparing similar activities here..
Yellow stuff pads will melt just like the OPs - I tried em.. I know. I got about 4 15min sessions out of them on a fairly small/lower speed track. Thankfully I called it a day after that, cuz there was about 1/32" remaining on them.
Yellow stuff pads will melt just like the OPs - I tried em.. I know. I got about 4 15min sessions out of them on a fairly small/lower speed track. Thankfully I called it a day after that, cuz there was about 1/32" remaining on them.
11-10-2011, 04:47 PM
#27
I wouldnt run ebc for track.... had a few bad experiences with them.... last time, after the track day was over i took off my caliper to check out the wear and the whole bad crumbled in my ahnd into powder basically.... since then ive order a wilwood 13" bbk, there was a special going on at the time, got it for 1299 if i remember correctly.... try and find a good deal... of course this was only in the front lol.... but the rear should be square if you put on track pads.....stay safe dude!!
11-11-2011, 12:29 PM
#28
A few things I am going to voice my opinions on. I am sure some will disagree with, but I am coming from many, many hours of track time, w2w racing, many track cars, and having an actual brake engineer with us who actually helped develop the now famous Carbotech XP line.
The stock 350Z non-brembo setup is actually just fine for 99% of the track driving people with the proper pad, rotor, and fluid setup. This does not mean that it can withstand pre-braking, drag, and partial application without heat issues. The biggest one that will kill it is 70% braking for extended times vs harder 90% to 100% for shorter times. If someone learns to brake hard vs street braking it will actually be significantly better on the brake system itself.
On the set up, first and foremost…ditch the slotted and drilled rotors! They do nothing to help cooling or material displacement. This use to be the case, but most modern compounds either atomize or have such small discharge that a pad sweep is no longer needed. These holes and groves only provide areas for cracking, and you actually loose heat displacement. The more solid mass the rotor has, the greater it can displace the heat and less is transferred to the pad itself. Not to mention the money you will save by less expensive blank rotors that actually last quite a bit longer.
Pads – once you start to really brake, get a track pad. The HP+, EBC, and similar pads are street performance and Autocross pads. They are not meant to withstand prolong heat that a track pad is. Because of this you will either crumble the pad or transfer all that heat to the fluid. It’s boiled fluid that is causing the fade. Actual track pads not only have materials that resist heat transfer, but the backing material is an insulator as well. The reason that street based pads are not the same is because of cold performance which they have most of the times. The track pad option can actually save you money because the track pads will last a lot longer than using street based pads, and you won’t use them on the street so both sets will last quite a bit longer overall. It only takes about 20 minutes to do the change and with a good modern pad you don’t have to worry too much about material buildup and interaction on the rotors. The 350Zs will wear the rear pads first, and also check both inner and outer pads on each wheel. These can fool you if you just take the wheel off and check it from the front. There is a good chance the back pad is in much worse shape.
Fluids – Bleed, Bleed, Bleed…and use better stuff. Water is the killer of brake fluids and if you are doing more than a few events a year, bleed the brakes at least every other track day. You don’t need to bleed the whole system, just enough to get a clean discharge out of each caliper. Use a good high temp fluid like Motoul, Redline, Ford SD, or Valvoline Synth.
With all of these I doubt you will have issues with the 350Z standard brakes, even pushing it hard.
The stock 350Z non-brembo setup is actually just fine for 99% of the track driving people with the proper pad, rotor, and fluid setup. This does not mean that it can withstand pre-braking, drag, and partial application without heat issues. The biggest one that will kill it is 70% braking for extended times vs harder 90% to 100% for shorter times. If someone learns to brake hard vs street braking it will actually be significantly better on the brake system itself.
On the set up, first and foremost…ditch the slotted and drilled rotors! They do nothing to help cooling or material displacement. This use to be the case, but most modern compounds either atomize or have such small discharge that a pad sweep is no longer needed. These holes and groves only provide areas for cracking, and you actually loose heat displacement. The more solid mass the rotor has, the greater it can displace the heat and less is transferred to the pad itself. Not to mention the money you will save by less expensive blank rotors that actually last quite a bit longer.
Pads – once you start to really brake, get a track pad. The HP+, EBC, and similar pads are street performance and Autocross pads. They are not meant to withstand prolong heat that a track pad is. Because of this you will either crumble the pad or transfer all that heat to the fluid. It’s boiled fluid that is causing the fade. Actual track pads not only have materials that resist heat transfer, but the backing material is an insulator as well. The reason that street based pads are not the same is because of cold performance which they have most of the times. The track pad option can actually save you money because the track pads will last a lot longer than using street based pads, and you won’t use them on the street so both sets will last quite a bit longer overall. It only takes about 20 minutes to do the change and with a good modern pad you don’t have to worry too much about material buildup and interaction on the rotors. The 350Zs will wear the rear pads first, and also check both inner and outer pads on each wheel. These can fool you if you just take the wheel off and check it from the front. There is a good chance the back pad is in much worse shape.
Fluids – Bleed, Bleed, Bleed…and use better stuff. Water is the killer of brake fluids and if you are doing more than a few events a year, bleed the brakes at least every other track day. You don’t need to bleed the whole system, just enough to get a clean discharge out of each caliper. Use a good high temp fluid like Motoul, Redline, Ford SD, or Valvoline Synth.
With all of these I doubt you will have issues with the 350Z standard brakes, even pushing it hard.
11-11-2011, 12:57 PM
#29
Ok cool.
Now in this case I was using Fresh RBF 600, I bleed it every one or two visits to the track actually.
Cheston's article hinted at the same thing, dragging the brakes.
I asure you I am braking hard and late, not at an expert level, but harder and later than just about everyone I visit the track with. It's one thing I've been very conscious of.
Also in this case you guys have to understand that I live in Canada, nothing is available ever. I only went with the Stoptech street performance cause they are the best I could do on 1 days notice. Otherwise it was HPS which would be worse. Next will be carbotech xp10 and xp8 as recommended previously. I will buy a couple sets online in advance and have a back up at the track.
Have any of you guys ever only had 1 pad fail like this? All the others looking fine?
Now in this case I was using Fresh RBF 600, I bleed it every one or two visits to the track actually.
Cheston's article hinted at the same thing, dragging the brakes.
I asure you I am braking hard and late, not at an expert level, but harder and later than just about everyone I visit the track with. It's one thing I've been very conscious of.
Also in this case you guys have to understand that I live in Canada, nothing is available ever. I only went with the Stoptech street performance cause they are the best I could do on 1 days notice. Otherwise it was HPS which would be worse. Next will be carbotech xp10 and xp8 as recommended previously. I will buy a couple sets online in advance and have a back up at the track.
Have any of you guys ever only had 1 pad fail like this? All the others looking fine?
11-11-2011, 01:11 PM
#30
11-11-2011, 09:03 PM
#31
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A few things I am going to voice my opinions on. I am sure some will disagree with, but I am coming from many, many hours of track time, w2w racing, many track cars, and having an actual brake engineer with us who actually helped develop the now famous Carbotech XP line.
The stock 350Z non-brembo setup is actually just fine for 99% of the track driving people with the proper pad, rotor, and fluid setup. This does not mean that it can withstand pre-braking, drag, and partial application without heat issues. The biggest one that will kill it is 70% braking for extended times vs harder 90% to 100% for shorter times. If someone learns to brake hard vs street braking it will actually be significantly better on the brake system itself.
On the set up, first and foremost…ditch the slotted and drilled rotors! They do nothing to help cooling or material displacement. This use to be the case, but most modern compounds either atomize or have such small discharge that a pad sweep is no longer needed. These holes and groves only provide areas for cracking, and you actually loose heat displacement. The more solid mass the rotor has, the greater it can displace the heat and less is transferred to the pad itself. Not to mention the money you will save by less expensive blank rotors that actually last quite a bit longer.
Pads – once you start to really brake, get a track pad. The HP+, EBC, and similar pads are street performance and Autocross pads. They are not meant to withstand prolong heat that a track pad is. Because of this you will either crumble the pad or transfer all that heat to the fluid. It’s boiled fluid that is causing the fade. Actual track pads not only have materials that resist heat transfer, but the backing material is an insulator as well. The reason that street based pads are not the same is because of cold performance which they have most of the times. The track pad option can actually save you money because the track pads will last a lot longer than using street based pads, and you won’t use them on the street so both sets will last quite a bit longer overall. It only takes about 20 minutes to do the change and with a good modern pad you don’t have to worry too much about material buildup and interaction on the rotors. The 350Zs will wear the rear pads first, and also check both inner and outer pads on each wheel. These can fool you if you just take the wheel off and check it from the front. There is a good chance the back pad is in much worse shape.
Fluids – Bleed, Bleed, Bleed…and use better stuff. Water is the killer of brake fluids and if you are doing more than a few events a year, bleed the brakes at least every other track day. You don’t need to bleed the whole system, just enough to get a clean discharge out of each caliper. Use a good high temp fluid like Motoul, Redline, Ford SD, or Valvoline Synth.
With all of these I doubt you will have issues with the 350Z standard brakes, even pushing it hard.
The stock 350Z non-brembo setup is actually just fine for 99% of the track driving people with the proper pad, rotor, and fluid setup. This does not mean that it can withstand pre-braking, drag, and partial application without heat issues. The biggest one that will kill it is 70% braking for extended times vs harder 90% to 100% for shorter times. If someone learns to brake hard vs street braking it will actually be significantly better on the brake system itself.
On the set up, first and foremost…ditch the slotted and drilled rotors! They do nothing to help cooling or material displacement. This use to be the case, but most modern compounds either atomize or have such small discharge that a pad sweep is no longer needed. These holes and groves only provide areas for cracking, and you actually loose heat displacement. The more solid mass the rotor has, the greater it can displace the heat and less is transferred to the pad itself. Not to mention the money you will save by less expensive blank rotors that actually last quite a bit longer.
Pads – once you start to really brake, get a track pad. The HP+, EBC, and similar pads are street performance and Autocross pads. They are not meant to withstand prolong heat that a track pad is. Because of this you will either crumble the pad or transfer all that heat to the fluid. It’s boiled fluid that is causing the fade. Actual track pads not only have materials that resist heat transfer, but the backing material is an insulator as well. The reason that street based pads are not the same is because of cold performance which they have most of the times. The track pad option can actually save you money because the track pads will last a lot longer than using street based pads, and you won’t use them on the street so both sets will last quite a bit longer overall. It only takes about 20 minutes to do the change and with a good modern pad you don’t have to worry too much about material buildup and interaction on the rotors. The 350Zs will wear the rear pads first, and also check both inner and outer pads on each wheel. These can fool you if you just take the wheel off and check it from the front. There is a good chance the back pad is in much worse shape.
Fluids – Bleed, Bleed, Bleed…and use better stuff. Water is the killer of brake fluids and if you are doing more than a few events a year, bleed the brakes at least every other track day. You don’t need to bleed the whole system, just enough to get a clean discharge out of each caliper. Use a good high temp fluid like Motoul, Redline, Ford SD, or Valvoline Synth.
With all of these I doubt you will have issues with the 350Z standard brakes, even pushing it hard.
11-12-2011, 06:26 AM
#33
11-12-2011, 08:45 AM
#34
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I'm a big advocate that the '03 calipers are fine for anything less than endurance racing (20min+ hard racing). FWIW SMP is much harder on brakes than TMP is, and I still have no issues there and I am hard on my brakes. I cracked the **** out of all 4 rotors last time (stupid drilled ones, never again) with ducts to give you an idea on heat. But like said, it might have been dragging. A rebuild would be my suggestion, maybe pick up a 2nd set even as they are dirt cheap used. And make sure you use plenty of high-temp caliper grease.
11-12-2011, 12:27 PM
#38
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go to www.rockauto.com and get the Centric blank rotors. Super cheap, only like $40-$60 per rotor. I've been using these rotors with carbotech XP pads with no issues.
Last edited by AznSky; 11-12-2011 at 12:29 PM.
11-12-2011, 01:37 PM
#39
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go to www.rockauto.com and get the Centric blank rotors. Super cheap, only like $40-$60 per rotor. I've been using these rotors with carbotech XP pads with no issues.
11-13-2011, 07:18 AM
#40
go to www.rockauto.com and get the Centric blank rotors. Super cheap, only like $40-$60 per rotor. I've been using these rotors with carbotech XP pads with no issues.