Ok people...feel free to chime in on this one!
First take a look at this post on Hollow Bars and bends...

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showpo...3&postcount=49

2. All late model vehicle sway bars are subject to major bends for clearances
a. Hollow tube bends are not consistently predictable from 1 hollow bar to another, allowing greater variations in bar strength
b. This means actual bar strengths have a higher degree of variationfrom one hollow tube bar to another, as compared to a solid sway bar.
c. Bends also decrease diameter of the tube. At SEMA, I measured 2 different well-known brands. Here is the Data:


The arrow shows the reduction in bar diameter in a hollow tube bend from a major manufacturer of hollow tube bars. Even though the picture is small, you can visually see the diameter of the bars are smaller at the bends




OK folks...here she blows..do ya seem em here>>>

 

What is the point of this?

 

Ronn1 do everyone a favor and stop making 3 posts a day on ****in swaybars

 

Do any of you guys like to LEARN something every now and then?
Looks like Hothchkis (and others?) may not be all they claim to be as far as stiffness numbers they PUBLISH for marketing purposes? Just a thought.

 

OMG, here we go again. Dude, just pick a swaybar and get over it.

As I pointed out before, the minutia of the engineering details aren't anything when compared to the overall suspension of a car.

Are you racing the car? Are you performing in the top 1%, 5% or even 10%? If not, then the minor differences made by spring steel, thinning at the bends, hollow vs solid, etc. are not going to help or hurt your standings.

Unless you see a pattern of hollow bars breaking at the bends, AFAIK this is meaningless. BTW, a solid bar bends in the same fashion as a hollow one. It's not the material, it's in how the bars are bent.

I think everybody would be in agreement with me if I combined all your SB thread into a single one titled "Ronn1s Raving and Rants on Swaybars"

 

Take the info for what it's worth instead of *shooting* the messenger.
Why do you guys get your panties in a bunch over posting info like this? Because I'm posting a bunch of stuff on sway bars?? Just DON'T read my posts..or at the very least...move on... instead of filling up this thread with useless bashing.

 

Considering I only use the published numbers as a starting point and set my bars at the track based on how the car performs and feels. I don't really care.

 

Ok..makes sense..I was just letting ya'all in on some info, which some seem to think *TOO MUCH OF* is a bad thing. I'll let those who read this stuff decide that for themelves.

 

The Z has been around for 11 years now. Aftermarket parts for the better part of 10. Do you think any of this is really new info? As I pointed out in your other thread, there have been a number of extensive discussions on swaybars, especially hollow vs solid.

Marketing info like that you have posted is deceptive. We're just trying to make it clear to you and especially anybody else that reads it that all is not what it seems. Hollow bars are not the weak, failure prone, under performing or lower quality than some competitors would have you believe.

Sorry that it seems like "bashing", but the chicken-little sky-is-falling threads like this demand clarification for the general public's benefit.

The stiffness numbers are measured, not a theoretical calculation based on bar thickness, diameter and material. That's why the stiffness is reported for each of the hole positions. I don't think anybody reports the torsional stiffness of their bar at a particular crossection along it's length. That would be a totally useless number.

This is why we are "bashing", because you're getting the science behind it wrong.

I went and measured my Hotchkis at the bend outside of the mounting blocks. Sure, it's thinner through the bend, but it's also thicker perpendicular to the bend. In other words, it's becoming oval at that point. Essentially the same amount of material, just distributed differently.

 

I didn't imply that ALL hollow bars are weak..neither did that article..read the ENTIRE link..PLEASE. If the hollow bars are bent CORRECTLY (along with other precautions) they can be very reliable and effective. I'm NOT bashing hollow bars but they have their caveats...as pointed out.




.

*Getting the science wrong*? You mean you're challenging the substance of that article as far as bends?

You say.."Sure, it's thinner through the bend, but it's also thicker perpendicular to the bend."
Did ya READ what I posted? Doen't matter if it's thicker anywhere else...the bar is RATED at it's THINNEST point (bend)! The weakest link defines the over all capability of the bar..just like a chain that has just ONE weak link. You can't rate the chain's strength based on the better links..you rate it's overall strength based on>>> THE WEAKEST LINK.

Hey..I'm sure there are TONS of satisfied Hotchkis people out there..fine and dandy. You saw the PIC..you saw the info I posted. Hotchkis is the heavily marketed and appears to be the *HOLY GRAIL* of sway bars...just want to tell it like it is. Ya'all can draw you own conclusions...just don't bash the messenger.

 

We need to add a Groan button to this forum,

 

Again, you're just not getting it. Those are NOT "ratings" as in the strength of the bar through any given cross section. The ratings published by manufacturers are a measurement of the amount of force it takes to get a given deflection of the bar at that connection hole. That's why the hole at the end takes less force than the hole close to the center line of the bar. It's a lever. None of that has anything to do with the inherent strength of the materials, bar design, thickness of the bar, wall thickness of a hollow bar or any other analysis you put it through. It's an overall measurement that is meaningful when you hook it up to your suspension.

Imagine it this way. The bar is encapsulated in a black box. You can't see what's inside, you don't know how it's made or what it's made of. It provides resistance in pounds of force based on which hole you connect to. That is what you "tune" your suspension against.

Yes, the "thin" spot is the weaker point. But when you measure the force for the deflection at one of the mounting holes, that is automatically taken into account, right? If you had a bar that narrowed down to 10mm diameter in the middle, it might be rated 1/10 that of OEM because of the low force it would take. It doesn't matter what the diameter of the rest of the bar was.

I and 99% of the people who buy swaybars don't care if they are 25mm, 30mm, 33mm or 40mm. We only care that they fit and provide a certain amount of force (usually compared to OEM). The fact that part of the bar is thicker or thinner is meaningless unless they become prone to failure at that point.

I'm done trying to explain it to you. I'm going to spend the day autocrossing - a practical application of my swaybar and the engineering that made it possible. I'm not going to worry about it breaking because it's thinner. I'm not going to worry that others have solid bars or that their ratings are more or less than mine. It doesn't matter.


If bar failure was something to be concerned about, then yes, we would all worry about hollow vs solid and thinning at bends and material. The bottom line is that bar failure is not an issue. People buy sway bars because it provides 1200 lbs of force at the middle hole, or 120% of OEM force at the end hole.

 

[QUOTE=DavesZ#3;9549257]
I do get it...
Do you really think those published #s are legit? I don't see a 35MM hollow bar having 120% OEM on any setting.
However I do understand the *empirical* approach...if you put the bar on a setting and find one to your liking...fine and dandy. Hotchkis provides a hole setting that will trump the bar's inherent strength ( which is weak).
That approach is NOT the best design.

 

why dont you just keep it all in ONE thread. we love info, we hate useless threads. kepp it all together man.

 

Google "leverage" and figure out how it applies to Hotchkiss sway bars, then you may understand howand why the extra holes work.